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Well, The Pathfinder Campaign Setting is detailing roughly 1/3 of a planet. And just like Earth, there are varying levels of technology and societal sophistication traveling from one corner to another. This should be of benefit to you, assuming you are the GM. You get to place your game wherever you want. Which means that if you want a game with clockwork men weilding deathrays, you have Numenaria. If you want more traditional sword and sorcery, there are the Lands of the Linnorm Kings. If you want a political campaign in a declining empire, Taldor. A 1492: Conquest of a New World inspired story? Journey to Arcadia and conquer those savage centaurs.
If that means you, as GM, never have any desire to send your players to a province that has held revolution after bloody revolution. That's fine. Don't use Galt. But the possibilities for adventure are there. And there are a lot of different GMs with a lot of different tastes out there. Their tastes are just as valid as yours.
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This is not fantasy anymore - at least to me - it is way too modern.. Sorry to say this.
Hey Enpeze -
I know how you feel. As a DM, I use my DM fiat to adjust the game to what I want it to be.
Please know, however, that a sense of the "modern" has been in D&D for years. At least since 1976, when Expedition to the Barrier Peaks was introduced into the Dungeons and Dragons universe. Robots and space ships and lasers! Oh my!!
I think that Golarion is so appealing because I can play "in this corner here" and be perfectly happy. Someone who may want something different can play "in that corner over there" and be perfectly happy as well.
Best of luck to you!
Dave
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After reading Galt, I am not so sure anymore I want to play in Golarion. I dont like to play a fantasy variant of the October Revolution.
That sounds like a reason not to play in Galt rather than a reason not to play in Golarion. Don't want anti-monarchist revolutions? Play in Ustulav, or Varisia, or Cheliax, or Osirion, or the Land of the Linnorm Kings, or Qadira, or the River Kingdoms, or...
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in the 19th century with its complex poltical societies is not very "fantasy" to me.
An aside: Ancient and medieval cultures certainly did have complex political societies.
I'm just curious, though... what is your cutoff date for fantasy? 1453 C.E.? Even earlier? A little later?
If you are unwilling to ignore Galt because you fear that Golarion will only become even more anachronistic, then I think your fears are misguided, as the setting is, by and large, more sword and sorcery.
Well, everyone is at the mercy of his or her own subjective tastes for what makes for good and inspiring fantasy, and others might have their imaginations constrained by whatever paradigms in which they may operate. (And unfortunately, some players might be at the mercy of their GM, who might not allow them to make their own decisions of what is good or bad.)
Varied tastes, imo, keeps the community strong, though (wouldn't it be a bummer if everything were the same?).
I like Galt.
You don't.
I believe Golarion is big enough for the both of us.
I concur. And always remember, you are the GM, so change what does not work for you.
If Galt really bothers you, move backwards until you reach a time period you feel fits "fantasy" (though I have no troubles with it as it stands) and pick the favored form of execution prevelant then. Witch hunts favored stoning, drowning, iron maidens. You could use the Spanish Inquisition (nasty!) Or go back to mythic Greece and the Brass Bull (that was truly a sick way to kill someone, if it was really made).
The point is, there's room to flex what you want.
PS: To Paizo -- I personally love what you're doing, keep it up!
I also happen to dislike those 19th century references in Golarion, but I think that I can live with them and even like them some time further down the road.
What makes them worse for me are some of the pictures that Enpeze referenced. But those could be a case of not so well communicated art orders. The Eagle Knight uniform seems to modern and too imperial French for my tastes but the rest of the modules and background for Andoran doesn't paint the same modern outlook for them. Maybe we see a different Taldor when Pathfinder Companion: Taldor, Echoes of Glory is released next month.
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But if the fashion and the political systems of 2 of the biggest countries like Taldor and Andoria in the setting are borrowed from the 19th century then its way too much. This I dont find fun anymore. Maybe the many modern gamers want to have such impossible (19th cent. with Greatsword...) mixes but for me it destroys the fantasy athmosphere.
Actually, I think nations with well-defined borders, a claim to sovereignty, and a sense of themselves as being one people are fairly modern. I could be wrong but I think you'll find most fantasy worlds borrow a fairly 19th century or later concept of nationalism.
I could be wrong but I think you'll find most fantasy worlds borrow a fairly 19th century or later concept of nationalism.Actually you're perfectly correct. Nationalism, in the way that we largely think of it (and is expressed in most fantasy RPGs), didn't begin to appear until the 19th century (though there are roots in the Renaissance, largely due to the rise of a direct taxing system, which nationalized militaries and dismissed the kings' dependence on vassalage).
I hate Galt.
But that's because I hate the French Revolution.
And that's why I love Galt's inclusion in Golarion...let's me get some spleen on!
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I don't much care for the modern aspects of Golarion myself, which is why I don't plan on playing in those areas. Ever.
Like Forgotten Realms' Maztica and Kara Tur, Galt is one of those places that just breaks the setting for me and thus I'll never use them.. I probably won't buy anything related to it (and some other places.)
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I could be wrong but I think you'll find most fantasy worlds borrow a fairly 19th century or later concept of nationalism.Actually you're perfectly correct.
Say that again!
Actually you're perfectly correct.
I love hearing that.
Actually you're perfectly correct. Nationalism, in the way that we largely think of it (and is expressed in most fantasy RPGs), didn't begin to appear until the 19th century (though there are roots in the Renaissance, largely due to the rise of a direct taxing system, which nationalized militaries and dismissed the kings' dependence on vassalage).
And, I don't have a problem with a fantasy world that attempts to be relevant to our fantasies today more than it attempts to be historically grounded.
I guess the question is what kind of fantasies would you see played out in Galt? I was going to set my adventure proposal in Galt and it was going to be bloody good fun with the emphasis on the bloody. ;-)
I guess the question is what kind of fantasies would you see played out in Galt?
What would I do? Well, if I were with a group of players right now, and they were all like, “Hey, let’s play an adventure set in Galt!” I would probably do the following…
I’d have them whip up some 1st-level characters, then I’d place them deep in Galt. I’d say they have some sort of plausible mission to perform… maybe one of them is delivering urgent medicine to someone he knows. Basically some reason that makes sense for them even risking coming into this chaotic country.
So there they are, wandering along, probably through a forested road. It’s growing dark, and up ahead they see a campfire in a clearing. It’s filled with some Varisian entertainers, their wagons set about in a semicircle.
The Varisians would welcome them into their camp and entertain them with song, wine, and dance. I’d allow the players Perception checks to notice a pair (man and woman) in the background, their loose-fitting clothes tugged tightly around them, concealing their features; neither is participating in the general revelry.
Even if they don’t notice, then soon I would have the woman begin screaming frantically, with the man attempting to calm her. It soon becomes apparent that the couple is missing their young daughter. The camp fans out (and hopefully the players would participate in the search). Time for some rolls, and the players, most likely, will find the girl (maybe I can stretch the believability and have them come upon the child just as a bear is about to eat her or something).
Anyway, they find/rescue the girl and take her back to camp. They quickly notice that, even though she is dressed as a Varisian, she isn’t one. In fact, she is Galt. It is apparent that the three (mother, father, and daughter) are disguised as Varisians, and once the PCs know this, the atmosphere of the camp quickly changes. With the players’ suspicions aroused, it might be interesting to play this out for a minute, just to see what happens.
When I’m ready to move on, I’d introduce the Galt mercenaries (maybe led by a Gray Gardener, Cleric 2). They are there looking for someone. Even though the players don’t have an emotional stake in this yet (well, maybe they already feel protective over the girl), they would probably realize that if the Galt mercs discover the family, they will all be led to the final blade.
I’d let this be a pretty tense scene with the mercenaries scrutinizing the camp (and being jerks about it; tossing clothes onto the ground and being generally intimidating). I’d give the players a chance to somehow distract or otherwise manipulate the situation so the family is not spotted. At any rate, if the players fail in that task and the mercs or Gray Gardener succeed in their Perception check vs. the Disguise rolls, then they attempt to arrest everyone (and no doubt a battle ensues).
Afterward, the players find out that the family is on the run from the current government, who wants all of their heads. The Varisians were only taking them so far (since they aren’t leaving the country yet), and the family needs someone to escort them the rest of the way. Hopefully the players agree.
Of course, they still need to deliver the medicine. Fortunately, that small town is on the way. However, between here and there are roving patrols. I’d allow the players to come up with a plan on how to get there without getting caught, assigning random encounter percentages depending on the solidness of their plans (allowing knowledge checks and so forth to increase their chances of success).
Along the way I’d roleplay the three family members, doing my best to get the PCs to like these folks. The idea here is that they seem like kind and gentle people, but more to the point, very afraid (if one of the players was particularly valiant when saving the girl, then I’d probably have her grow an attachment to him or her, further increasing that player’s sense of obligation).
Anyway, at the town (un-walled, small) I’d have them meet their friend (I’m imagining an older human, some sort of trader, like a cobbler or something humble), who is still quite sick. And that’s when I’d throw the curve ball: Someone in the town recognizes their new charges (if the PCs brought them to their friend’s cottage, then it would be him; this would be the best, but the players may decide to have them wait in a tavern or something, in which case it will have to be some other random NPC).
So someone recognizes them and the NPC becomes greatly agitated. It turns out the man was a member of the previous government, and he sent scores of innocent people to the final blade. At this point, the players have to decide whether or not to continue to protect him and his family. Of course, if they don’t do something, soon there will be a mob who insists on the death of not only the man, but his wife and daughter as well.
If they can contain the news (through diplomacy or some other method of restraining the person who recognizes them), then a large squad of mercenaries (and maybe more Gray Gardeners, or better yet, the same Gray Gardener if he managed to earlier escape) shows up and begins performing house-to-house searches…
There would be a lot of options at this point. The players might be able to hide, maybe sneak out of town without being seen, maybe break into the stables and steal horses (horse chases are always fun!) or maybe a wagon (wagon chases are even better! A la Willow!)… but no matter what, it’d probably be tense.
And that’s probably good enough for one session. But that’s not what I’m doing right now, alas… instead, I’m going to go watch Watchmen. ;)
Creative Director
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We designed Golarion to be modular. We wanted to have a part of Golarion appeal to as many folks as possible, but that more or less ensured that some areas would not please everyone.
Fortunately, as I said, Golarion is modular. In Galt's case, it's even better; it's off to the side. You can ignore Galt and the rest of the campaign won't really suffer at all.
What? There's Gauls in Galt?!
Next you'll be telling me Pepe Le Pew is a Galtic were-masher.
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And in the next edition of Golarion the heroes AND the goblins then have cell phones. This IS perfectly ok, because according to the designer everything is possible by just calling it "fantasy".
TONE:
Sincere (no)
Sarcastic (no)
Hyperbole
Insulting (no)
Useful (no)
HYPERBOLE RESPONSES:
Ignore (no)
Persuade (no)
Irony
ANSWER:
That is *totally* what's going to happen. Cell phones would make the coolest wondrous items! You could type in different numbers for various effects!
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Hank are you some kind of terminator robot sent from the future to destroy mankind?
As for technology lvl's the exact same thing happened on earth (Simply compare the middle east's relative technology lvl to Europes during the middle ages or even today by comparing first world to third world countries.) So I don't really see there being a problem with having several countries at different technology lvl's
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Yes probably you are right. Ignoring or changing those 19th cent. lands would be the best. But its like in cthulhu. If you ignore the mythos, it will come to you in the form of the adventure modules. I just remember the "Gold Goblin" thing in SD which sounds more like a modern casino in the 19th or even 20th century.
Well, there are LOTS of adventures out there. :)
And, if you don't like the Cthulhu mythos, don't worry. The tradtional stories (see the Brothers Grimm for ideas) can be quite horrific.
And how about this? If one of my players wants to play an andorian paladin, he gets a holy tophat, a smoking in the colours of his deity and his greatsword, similar to the silly andorian guy in the picture.
You could always say "No."
And in the next edition of Golarion the heroes AND the goblins then have cell phones. This IS perfectly ok, because according to the designer everything is possible by just calling it "fantasy".
What? Fasa's Shadowrun is a completely awesome fantasy setting! :D
Holistic's Fading Suns is a little too "dark" for my tastes, but I know many people who like it.
What I am saying is defining "Fantasy" is a little more complicated then it may seem.
Probably some designers of paizo would have been luckier if they could invent some weird SciFi or politcal settings instead of Golarion?
Well, in the worst case - create or find a setting closer to your likeing. The PathfinderRPG is as setting neutral as possible.
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Probably some designers of paizo would have been luckier if they could invent some weird SciFi or politcal settings instead of Golarion?
No need to get offensive. I'd rather guess that the paizo designers are lucky to be able to do exactly what they set out to do. I'd highly recommend the lecture of the real insightful blog entry from June 5, 2007, "What's the difference." You'll find that they have been quite consistent in the pursuit of their design goals.
As others have said before, if anything isn't to your tastes, you're free to ignore or to change it. But only because you prefer to use a focussed definition of the term "fantasy", that does in no way mean that Galt (to use the example) isn't fantasy at all.
I for myself love those inclusions of modern tropes into the setting and as far as I am concerned, it does in no way destroys the setting's credibility. I also loved "Masque of the Red death" and I'm quite fond of Eberron and to me, both are paragons of the Fantasy genre.
I'm as into S&S as everyone else I guess but to be frank, if Golarion was just a repetition of what Greyhawk did 30 years ago, I wouldn't be interested in Golarion at all. Not because I dislike Greyhawk (it's quite the opposite) it's just that I don't need the setting twice.
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If Galt really bothers you, move backwards until you reach a time period you feel fits "fantasy" (though I have no troubles with it as it stands) and pick the favored form of execution prevelant then....go back to mythic Greece and the Brass Bull (that was truly a sick way to kill someone, if it was really made).
I guess the question is what kind of fantasies would you see played out in Galt?What would I do? Well, if I were with a group of players right now, and they were all like, “Hey, let’s play an adventure set in Galt!” I would probably do the following…
I’d have them whip up some 1st-level characters, then I’d place them deep in Galt. I’d say they have some sort of plausible mission to perform…
*snip*
OK, so, when will we be able to purchase this module ...?
If its only a single element its not problem for me. Eg. the Nosferatu in CotCT which is clearly designed after 19th century Max Schreck is fun and fine.
Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens (Nosferatu: A Symphony of Horror or simply Nosferatu), directed by F. W. Murnau, starring Max Schreck as the vampire Count Orlok, was shot in 1921 and released in 1922, hardly the 19th century. Granted, it was a blatant infringement on Bram Stoker's Dracula, but even so, that work was published in 1897, and at the very least represents fin-de-siecle literature, if not 20th century lit.
I am a also a German and must say that I agree one many points.
A lot of names sound strange and break the mood because my players can’t help but laugh if I use them.
Galt and even more so: Numeria „Savage land of super-science“ really bother me.
The picture of the eagle knight is absolutely terrible
Luckily I am the only DM in my group who will use Golarion (normally we play Realms) so I can (and will) ignore these lands – and the Eagle Knight picture will never be seen by my players :-)
I will keep to Varisia and the Lake Encarthan region mostly.
Other DM’s may look for completely other regions and that is the way it should be
I think Golarion has to incorporate different styles to be successful
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I think PF just isn't for you. The great number of complaints you have for it, as well as your attitude, make it quite clear to me that you don't like it and don't want to try to take the "good" parts only.
Frankly, I'm seeing this "I don't like it so it must be taken out even though a lot of o ther people like it" mentality a lot and I'm sick of it.
wizards did this with 4e and my former favourite setting and thus made sure that I'll never buy their stuff again.
Complaints about how things that basically define D&D (like elves and dwarves) are in the setting, that the names don't please your German ears (frankly, I don't see that - my German ears have no problem. Maybe because I'm not looking so hard), or that evil countries should have evil names like the "Sinister Malecracy of the Evil Empire" or real-world naming conventions must be 100% converted over to fantasy counterparts without any mix up - they look like you made a list, dilligently noting every little think that's not completely up to your high standards and then letting it all down....
That all seems weird. If you cannot get past the little stuff, how will the bigger parts ever be manageable?
Speaking of which: What makes more modern concepts Not Fantasy? What's fantasy's expiration date? Why does a fantasy world with some of the basic facts wildly different from the real world have to follow our Earth's timeline to the second?
So there's a revolution going on. So what? There's well-dressed British gentlement around. It's too close to our current situation and thus it cannot be fantasy?
If you think that way, better get out of D&D, because it's crawling with "modern" notions!
Equal rights for women? That's very modern. A lot of this has been going on in recent years. Look up women's suffrage (Frauenwahlrecht) on, say, Wikipedia and take special notes on the dates. For some countries, that's still Sci-Fi.
Plus, nothing in Fantasy says it has to be 500 years old. The whole World of Darkness thing looks definetly like fantasy to me (it's frikkin' vampires and werewolves!) and it plays in a world that's supposed to be a darker version of today's real world. Heck, star wars is fantasy, and if you disregard the "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away" part and ask yourself how long it would take for us real world humans to get near the tech level displayed there, you'd probably have to say "somewhere past the year 3000".
D&D has never been purely medievalist, and Pathfinder tries to cater to a broader sense of fantasy: Tolkien fans are welcome, but they won't chase you out if you happen to like Edgar Rice Burroughs.
It's a great idea and means that a lot of people with a lot of different preferences can make Golarion their home.
It does, of course, mean that those who don't want to be tolerant of other ideas will not like it here, but to that I say "Your 'you're not welcome' attitude is not welcome here!"
As to cellphones: Can you make a strong case of your reasons behind that comment other than "I was baiting"?
A world where mankind has a much longer history than in our own, and where the concept of civilisation is even older than that already ancient humanity, it's only logical that they passed us in some things, probably in many.
Technology isn't one of those, but that has a different reason: They've got magic. They don't need technology, because magic's there, and usually better at things now than technology will be centuries hence.
There might be the occasional tinkerer, but they'll be an exception, and will have real trouble finding funding, since the rich guys who would normally fund them would sooner give it to a spellcaster to further his craft - and get results now.
Thus, the cellphone as we know it will not get to Golarion any time soon, but I see no reason why there is no magic item that replicates its functionality using magic. The spells are already there, the only thing they'll need to do is create a magic item that uses them and you're set! Better yet, they'll probably have no running costs and you'll be able to communicate with someone who doesn't have one himself - he just cannot initiate the conversation.
Who is John Galt?
Maybe it's just not the type of setting you like, cool. Just dont come asking that it be changed, as most folk find it just fine as is.
I myself find the same thing over and over boring...thats why I always liked the realms a little something for everyone there.I find Golarion very realms like, there is a bit of something for everyone in there
Look at our world, we have folks still using stone weapons, some country's still using weapons from a 100 years ago and others that have all the nice things of a modern world in the cites but out away from it they dont even have running water.
I find Golarion a living breathing world, not a place set in a static bubble, never changing. And thats what makes me love it, I love the fact it lives and it's not all the same place over and over with a new name. I want cultures and tech to vary and dress and language i want it diverse
It's a living world that makes me want to run it, to explore and dive into every little part...This is what a campaign world should be, to me
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frankly, I don't see that - my German ears have no problem. Maybe because I'm not looking so hard
You know, there are Germans out there still thinking we're a part of France. ;)
But yeah, my ears have no problems either.
What I would like to ask the OP:
When you're playing in any other developed world: Do you use all material (aka "the whole world")? Or do you chose a place to set your campaign and basically ignore the rest? Maybe some places for different campaigns? I mean I can't imagine any real person to have played in each and every part of the Realms, to give an example. In fact, I can't even imagine any real person finding each and every part of the Realms to their likings.
So what does it matter to you if Paizo caters to different players with different tastes. They never said that all things are meant to please everybody. And even if there sometimes should be an adventure or an AP located in Galt, I'd guess you'll have plenty of other Adventure(s) Paths to chose from.
And no, I don't think that they'll ever stray to far from the roots of D&D. There'll ever be a place for REH and friends.
Just a related point from the Iomedae! thread: It is difficult to create a fantasy product with names that sound good in English. Expecting it to sound as good to German, Spanish, etc ears is probably expecting a miracle. I've heard tell it's happened a couple of times, but shooting for miracle on a regular basis is probably not really fair. Scratch the "probablies". Though I feel your pain, it really has to be up to fans of Pathfinder of other tongues to massage pronunciation as necessary.
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Creative Director
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Just a related point from the Iomedae! thread: It is difficult to create a fantasy product with names that sound good in English. Expecting it to sound as good to German, Spanish, etc ears is probably expecting a miracle. I've heard tell it's happened a couple of times, but shooting for miracle on a regular basis is probably not really fair. Scratch the "probablies". Though I feel your pain, it really has to be up to fans of Pathfinder of other tongues to massage pronunciation as necessary.
It's interesting to note that the name "Galt" weirds me out precisely BECAUSE it's a real-world place—it's a town in central California near where my grandparents live. So the name sounds completely fine to me in English... it just weirds me out that it's the same name as where Grandma and Grandpa once taught elementary school back in the day...
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Part of being a DM is making the campaign setting yours!
If you just play the campaign setting as it's written, then you end up with a flat world...
Don't like Galt, change it...
I LOVE Golarion because there IS so much there... You can drop elements from other settings into it easily! I can run Expedition to the Barrier peaks in Golarion since it's actually hinted at in the setting...
Guns are there, but expensive! excellent.
They wrote the world, you need to re-imagine it for YOUR game.
Maybe it's just not the type of setting you like, cool. Just dont come asking that it be changed, as most folk find it just fine as is.
Well, he does have a point about the art orders. James even commented that some of the art was too modern-looking; there was one with explorers with pith helmets and rifles fighting off apes, for instance.
But what I am afraid of is that the general future direction of Golarion will go to more and more "modern elements" (as a rough generalization of elements I consider "un-fantasy" and therefore I dislike) and one day you have a weird mix of sections you want to play and alot of others (and not only a few like it is today) you want to avoid or redesign. This day will be the day I realize that I have spent too much money and time for this world.
I have to agree with KaeYoss ... you seem to like to complain. You find parts "unacceptable" and "un-fantasy" ... you disliked the maps for having "straight lines" ... and then you say something to the effect that you're okay with it, you just wanted to say it. If you're that unhappy, then maybe Golarian isn't for you, which I think is a crying shame, as I have found it to be the most inventive world setting in a long time of gaming.
I don't want to just play in one type of fantasy, I like having the options of lots of various things going on. I find the choices that Paizo has made to not only be logical outgrowths of the premises presented but exciting! Revolutions are hardly new ... humans killing off others is definitely not new. The Guillotine was a French invention, true, but this is not Earth, things do not have to follow our timeline of history and creation to work for me.
Arthur C. Clarke said it best "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If Paizo manages to come up with things for Golarian that I find futuristic with the fantasy flair, I will be tickled pink. And if they come up with things I don't like, I'll tweak and adjust them, letting my players know that things in that area of information are different than printed, and why.
I'm sorry you find so many things unacceptable and are so worried that sometime in the future you won't be happy with your choice to spend your money with Paizo. For myself, I can't think of a better place to invest my gaming money.
My thoughts.
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Maybe it's just not the type of setting you like, cool. Just dont come asking that it be changed, as most folk find it just fine as is.Well, he does have a point about the art orders. James even commented that some of the art was too modern-looking; there was one with explorers with pith helmets and rifles fighting off apes, for instance.
In fact, the majority of the art we've killed before publication has been killed for precisely that reason—the illustration looked too modern. For a while in the first year, this was a problem that PARTICULARLY haunted the module line, alas.
But this is not the case with Golarion. In these setting there are parts which are strong and which I like and parts which are inacceptable to me. And there is a difference between a "weak" part like in the Old World or Faerun and a possible "deal breaker".
Not sure what your getting at here Faerun has lands of high tech, and low tech, some of Faeruns normal tech is closer to 19th then 14th century it's just not the tech you see, heck even weapons history full plate would not been seen with rapiers unless the armor was a throwback, Faerun is the last setting you should say has no modren ideals or area's