Anyone got it yet? I picked up mine yesterday and am mining it for tomorrow's game.
I just got it, but haven't done more than glance at it. What's your opinion, so far?
The little block on page 4 (iirc) about Delves being DM testing grounds is about all I can really see the book being good for. Of course this is an opinion but in general forcing something into a long running campaign that might run against the theme, doesn't seem worth it. If you have been fighting drow for like most of a level as they are the enemy in the store, suddenly fighting ogres for the 7th level adventure seems a little out of place.
I guess you could always change the name of the monster but keep the role and stats though. Overall I think this would have been a better testing ground for micro-transactions and sell the delves alone. Like $1 for a delve or something. Just a thought.
Its quiet possible I am just not impressed since its also two weeks before PHB2 and that will beat the snot out of Delve. :)
The little block on page 4 (iirc) about Delves being DM testing grounds is about all I can really see the book being good for. Of course this is an opinion but in general forcing something into a long running campaign that might run against the theme, doesn't seem worth it. If you have been fighting drow for like most of a level as they are the enemy in the store, suddenly fighting ogres for the 7th level adventure seems a little out of place.
I guess you could always change the name of the monster but keep the role and stats though. Overall I think this would have been a better testing ground for micro-transactions and sell the delves alone. Like $1 for a delve or something. Just a thought.
Its quiet possible I am just not impressed since its also two weeks before PHB2 and that will beat the snot out of Delve. :)
Everyone suspends disbelief in order to play D&D. There are just some groups out there who are willing to suspend a little more than you are in order to enjoy their game of D&D. A lot of people are quite content not to wonder exactly why the drow decided to ally themselves with ogres. For these groups, Dungeon Delve makes a lot of sense - hassle-free, fun Dungeons & Dragons.
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To be honest these are the sort of roll-play books I loathe. I'll get it since my accursed OCD requires I collect all the official 4e books printed as well as Goodman.
However rather than waste time and resource on this book why not pull out a ToEE or Falcons Trilogy, a Night in the Underdark adventure/campaign.
I know I'll be able to mine it for info and probably make use of the maps/monsters (if any new) but I am disappointed.
To be honest these are the sort of roll-play books I loathe. I'll get it since my accursed OCD requires I collect all the official 4e books printed as well as Goodman.
However rather than waste time and resource on this book why not pull out a ToEE or Falcons Trilogy, a Night in the Underdark adventure/campaign.
I know I'll be able to mine it for info and probably make use of the maps/monsters (if any new) but I am disappointed.
Well I also suffer from collector craze, as I own the 4e books for the inevitable day I switch or make alot of time in it again. As such I picked up Delve and the thing I like about it is it gives essentially a mini example dungeon for every level, and also more importantly it gives a small adice block on pretty much any thing different so that you can leanr the problems at hand and avoid or work through them.
I bought Dungeon Delve and I've read it through the level 14 delve. They're pretty good for what they are, mini-adventures constructed out of three encounter using Dungeon Tiles. Given those limitations, the most interesting thing about the delve encounters are their creative uses of terrain, as there's always a little nasty surprise for the PCs or something that they (or the monsters) could use to their advantage.
IMO, this product has the following uses:
1. Using the encounters for your own adventures
2. Using the delves when your party does something unexpected or you didn't have time to prepare
3. Expanding the delves into full adventures, according to the suggestions given in the book
4. DM training
5. Change of pace adventuring
I plan on using it to fill in for a game that not everyone can make. Fill in the blanks with higher level pre-gens and see how the system works at higher levels.
I guess you could always change the name of the monster but keep the role and stats though.
That's actually so easy, it's criminal.
In my campaign, I just ran the PCs through an abandoned githzerai training complex deep in the underdark that housed an extra-dimensional prison. The place was overrun with gricks and other aberrations, and held a ridiculously complex puzzle and a powerful guardian they had to overcome to reach the prison.
The whole time they had no idea they were playing through the Temple of Baphomet area that appears in P2: Thunderspire Labyrinth. :)
Another 4e product with fail all over it IMHO.Because....?
...it's a 4E product?
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During our gaming session this weekend, our DM ran us through an adventure out of this book - we didn't actually realize it until halfway through the session (when he had to pull out the book for reference), since it was so easily worked into the already ongoing adventure and plot.
That strikes me as a valuable resource.
That's how I saw it, too. I'm already considering several of the delves to be inserted into my regular campaign. Add some backstory, change some of the monster's name and a power here and there, and presto! New encounters.
...but it sounds like those naysaying it or dragging out the tired old remarks about 'rollplay' honestly just don't get the point of the product. It is a series of short mini-adventures that a DM can easily snag and insert into their game. It doesn't proclaim to be more than that - or need to be. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you, that's fine - I'm not likely to use such a book myself, as it is. But I think some of the comments here really don't do much to add to the discussion, or contribute to these messageboards in any meaningful way.
Noted that, too. I'm really beginning to like Paizo's flag functionality.
During our gaming session this weekend, our DM ran us through an adventure out of this book - we didn't actually realize it until halfway through the session (when he had to pull out the book for reference), since it was so easily worked into the already ongoing adventure and plot.
That strikes me as a valuable resource.
That's how I saw it, too. I'm already considering several of the delves to be inserted into my regular campaign. Add some backstory, change some of the monster's name and a power here and there, and presto! New encounters.
...but it sounds like those naysaying it or dragging out the tired old remarks about 'rollplay' honestly just don't get the point of the product. It is a series of short mini-adventures that a DM can easily snag and insert into their game. It doesn't proclaim to be more than that - or need to be. If that sort of thing doesn't appeal to you, that's fine - I'm not likely to use such a book myself, as it is. But I think some of the comments here really don't do much to add to the discussion, or contribute to these messageboards in any meaningful way.Noted that, too. I'm really beginning to like Paizo's flag functionality.
I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...
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I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...
Personally I'm thinking the PDF version of this is the way to go. I can print out the relevant pages without giving the source away to the party. I'm thinking strongly about this but am undecided at the moment.
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I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...Personally I'm thinking the PDF version of this is the way to go. I can print out the relevant pages without giving the source away to the party. I'm thinking strongly about this but am undecided at the moment.
That's a cool idea. I generally don't like pdfs but I'm beginning to reconsider my decision due to the flexibility of printing out appropriate pages.
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I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...
Coolio. I'm doing the reverse with Pathfinder mods, inserting 4E monsters for 3.x creatures.
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Because I don't need poorly constructed miniature dungeons where the monsters are matched up. Drow and ogres? Really?
And yet, it took me all of 15 seconds to say "Drow and their fleshcrafted minions". Imagine some poor slave recrafted into some hulking, mindless beast. Add on top of it some clothing or something that ties the "ogres" to the PCs home and now they not only have an encounter, but a moral dilemma - Do I kill them, or what?
Too easy. Man, I'm good ...
Because I don't need poorly constructed miniature dungeons where the monsters are matched up. Drow and ogres? Really?
Couldn't drow have ogre slaves? Possibly charmed or dominated?
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Because I don't need poorly constructed miniature dungeons where the monsters are matched up. Drow and ogres? Really?And yet, it took me all of 15 seconds to say "Drow and their fleshcrafted minions". Imagine some poor slave recrafted into some hulking, mindless beast. Add on top of it some clothing or something that ties the "ogres" to the PCs home and now they not only have an encounter, but a moral dilemma - Do I kill them, or what?
Too easy. Man, I'm good ...
That is good. That, or you can reverse it and have the drow suffering some sorta weird fetish/fixation/psychosis with the ogres which climaxes when the latter devours them. Hey, there are human beings out there who want to be eaten!
Sure! They could be even willing as long as the drow provide enough food/treasure/etc.
There is quite a D&D tradition of Ogres working for small smarties in exchange for sacks of gold.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
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I don't run or play 4e, but this seems like a great idea to me. As much as I love Pathfinder because it clears up a lot of the prep that comes with running a game, it seems like this could be the same sort of thing with 4e, minus the brilliant background and mythology of Pathfinder. If I ran 4e, I'd snatch this up in a second. I can justify almost any sort of monstrous alliance and would rather think about that than planning out a map, quest, NPCs, traps, etc. It might not be right for every DM, but it seems useful enough for enough DMs to make for a good product.
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I don't run or play 4e, but this seems like a great idea to me. As much as I love Pathfinder because it clears up a lot of the prep that comes with running a game, it seems like this could be the same sort of thing with 4e, minus the brilliant background and mythology of Pathfinder. If I ran 4e, I'd snatch this up in a second. I can justify almost any sort of monstrous alliance and would rather think about that than planning out a map, quest, NPCs, traps, etc. It might not be right for every DM, but it seems useful enough for enough DMs to make for a good product.
I remember seeing something like this for 3.x. Offered by 3PPs, I believe. Let me look through my 3.x stuff and I'll let you know.
There is that. Golarion ogres, though, will probably want the deliverer of the gold. As a snack ;-)
I actually find this element to be mildly problematic, because it decreases their utility as low to mid-level enforcer monsters. Portrayed as they are in Hook Mountain Horror & Classic Monsters Revisited, Golarion ogres are too over the top crazy and psychotic to work for a tribe of lesser humanoids, leaving them as pretty much one-note monsters. Adventures like Hook Mountain (and the Giants one that came right after) are pretty much the only place for them. I mean, I can't think of a single instance in a Pathfinder Module (Path or otherwise) where they crop up outside of those two.
Please pardon my digression.
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There is that. Golarion ogres, though, will probably want the deliverer of the gold. As a snack ;-)
I actually find this element to be mildly problematic, because it decreases their utility as low to mid-level enforcer monsters. Portrayed as they are in Hook Mountain Horror & Classic Monsters Revisited, Golarion ogres are too over the top crazy and psychotic to work for a tribe of lesser humanoids, leaving them as pretty much one-note monsters. Adventures like Hook Mountain (and the Giants one that came right after) are pretty much the only place for them. I mean, I can't think of a single instance in a Pathfinder Module (Path or otherwise) where they crop up outside of those two.
Please pardon my digression.
Not a problem. Nothing that says you can't use both types in the same game world ;-)
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Coolio. I'm doing the reverse with Pathfinder mods, inserting 4E monsters for 3.x creatures.
I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...
What are you running? I have been doing Rise of the Runelords. Pirating off of Scott Betts for some suff, but about 70% mine.
Coolio. I'm doing the reverse with Pathfinder mods, inserting 4E monsters for 3.x creatures.
I don't play 4E and am not a fan of it at all. That being said I see the functionality of this product and after flipping through it in store I may pick up the PDF of this product and change the monsters back to their 3.5 counterparts to use for my games...What are you running? I have been doing Rise of the Runelords. Pirating off of Scott Betts for some suff, but about 70% mine.
Not to threadjack, but I'm converting CotCT. It's going quite well.
O
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What are you running? I have been doing Rise of the Runelords. Pirating off of Scott Betts for some suff, but about 70% mine.
I'm going to convert Clash of the Kingslayers first. Afterwards, I'm debating between Curse of the Crimson Throne or Second Darkness. I've already begun to lay seeds for the alter with some PCs getting hints that not is alright between the eladrin and drow PCs.
Coolio. I hope that, once WotC releases its fansite GSL equivalent that we can post our conversions on-line here at Paizo. NOTE: If Scott Bett's(?) has already done so, I have yet to check them out.
Not to threadjack, but I'm converting CotCT. It's going quite well.O
My conversion blog (Tales from the Rusty Dragon) is already listed on the Community Use Registry. Once WotC releases its own fan site policy it will be made compliant with that as well.
And tadkil, it's hardly pirating. I wouldn't put it out there unless I meant it to get used, in whole or in part. :)
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My conversion blog (Tales from the Rusty Dragon) is already listed on the Community Use Registry. Once WotC releases its own fan site policy it will be made compliant with that as well.And tadkil, it's hardly pirating. I wouldn't put it out there unless I meant it to get used, in whole or in part. :)
Coolio. I'll check it out and prep my conversion of Clash of the Kingslayers once my group moves in that direction.
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I play and run 4e I also play 3.5/Pathfinder.
IMO 4e is much easier to put together adventures for and run 3.5/Pathfinder I like to play but not run because putting adventures together and running it is a pain.
When 4e first came out I thought it was kind of bland and all the characters felt the same but as I continued playing 4e I started noticing the nuances of each character build. Even though each character uses the same framework each build has a different play-style.
My only major complaint about 4e is the lack of fluff, There is barely enough background material to hang a short adventure on let alone an continuing campaign and power and monster description are almost non existent.
The majority of books for 4e are of high quality and very useful but continue to skim on fluff. The only 4e books I haven’t got are Draconomicon because I don't use Dragons in my games and Dungeon Delve because I don't want pre-made dungeon crawls. I would prefer pre-made dungeons/maps that I can stock with my own monsters, traps and plots.
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My only major complaint about 4e is the lack of fluff, There is barely enough background material to hang a short adventure on let alone an continuing campaign and power and monster description are almost non existent.
The majority of books for 4e are of high quality and very useful but continue to skim on fluff. The only 4e books I haven’t got are Draconomicon because I don't use Dragons in my games and Dungeon Delve because I don't want pre-made dungeon crawls. I would prefer pre-made dungeons/maps that I can stock with my own monsters, traps and plots.
That's the primary reason I am converting Pathfinder. I have adopted the setting wholesale. Paizo products have solid background material and provide quality narrative support. Stuff like Classic Monsters revisited just adds quick and effective contour to 4E monsters.
I miss the 2E monster entries...
Re: Dungeon Delve.
It might be that the delves are a bit on the hard side. I always run D&D in our group, but, just as an exercise today, I let one of my players run me through the 3rd level delve in Dungeon Delve. He has played the game (up to 9th level) but was unfamiliar with the monster statblocks and some other behind-the-scenes stuff. To counteract this, I quickly threw together 5 3rd-level PCs on the Character Builder, trying out as many new concepts as possible. I ended with:
half-elf invoker
drow wild magic sorcerer
halfling bard
earth genasi warder
razorclaw shifter druid
I figured this was a balanced party, and although they were all new classes to me, I could figure them out pretty quickly. It took me an entire encounter to really get the hang of them, but by the second encounter, I was pretty much good to go.
Well, I got my butt handed to me. The third room of the delve was an ugly TPK in which I surrendered when the sorcerer was the only party member standing and the main boss and his mighty henchman weren't even bloodied.
It seems the formula is to do encounter levels of Party level +0, followed by +1, followed by +3. This is fine, but the writers put in monsters that are sometimes more than 5 levels higher than the average party level. I know the DMG says this is kosher, but in practice I have found it leads to dead PCs.
So, I suggest that everyone who uses the delves be prepared to shovel piles of dead PCs off their dungeon-lawns, because there are some killers delves in this book.
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I play and run 4e I also play 3.5/Pathfinder.
IMO 4e is much easier to put together adventures for and run 3.5/Pathfinder I like to play but not run because putting adventures together and running it is a pain.
When 4e first came out I thought it was kind of bland and all the characters felt the same but as I continued playing 4e I started noticing the nuances of each character build. Even though each character uses the same framework each build has a different play-style.
My only major complaint about 4e is the lack of fluff, There is barely enough background material to hang a short adventure on let alone an continuing campaign and power and monster description are almost non existent.
The majority of books for 4e are of high quality and very useful but continue to skim on fluff. The only 4e books I haven’t got are Draconomicon because I don't use Dragons in my games and Dungeon Delve because I don't want pre-made dungeon crawls. I would prefer pre-made dungeons/maps that I can stock with my own monsters, traps and plots.
Sir, you speak my thoughts exactly.
There was a time when they would write ecology of the piercer, and I would yawn at the amount of nonsense info about a monster, when all I need to know was how to kill it :-) (just like Vasquez in Aliens).
But now I find that I could use just a weee bit more info about monsters. It is like there is a lot of assumed knowledge about where monsters are from, how they came about and what is their purpose.
I do not wish to be back the "ecology of the piercer" days, but a little more fluff would be nice.
Also the adventures are similarly short on info. Give us a little more plot and twists to work with!
But I love the rules...
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Anyone got it yet? I picked up mine yesterday and am mining it for tomorrow's game.
Here's the skinny:
1) 42 new monsters
2) Guidelines for replacing the delve monsters to match your ecology
3) Guidelines for modifying the monsters to match your ecology
4) Guidelines to expanding the delves to full-blown adventures
Each delve has the Setup, or hook, tactics to help you be truly vicious, and also the features (illumination, dimensions, special features, etc.) I purchased the PDF format because I wanted to be able to extract the relevant levels without having to flop the book all over the place. This is one of the very few examples of where I prefer to have the PDF as opposed to the actual book. For what the book purports to be, I think it pulls it off just fine. As a DM, this definitely has a spot in my gaming "toolbox." While I usually home-brew - a product like this is PERFECT for a "Hey dad - lets play D&D!" moment.
What I like best about this product is there is no false pretentiousness here. They clearly address that the delve as presented may not fit your concept and provide guidelines to make the delve more meaningful to your campaign. They also provide guidelines to tweek the monsters so they better fit your ecology.
I won't be shy - I've had some negative comments about Wizards of the Coast and 4E when it came out, but after a year we're finally getting some honest product and some depth to the line where it's becoming a pretty exciting game.
This kind of product tends to frustrate me. Its main theme, little dungeons, does absolutely nothing for me. I'm more then willing to convert something from an old edition and I have more adventures then I could ever possibly run. Some of these adventures are absolutely spectacular. Truth is I can't run out of absolutely excellent adventures. Thus there really is no reason to pick this up unless or until I start hearing repeated cries from other posters that some of teh delves are just unbelievably awesome. Not something I expect to hear as the lairs books of past editions were not really all that impressive and this is the same sort of thing.
On the other hand I am interested in those 42 new monsters and I'm always interested in discussions on adventure design. So there are things in this book I'd like to see just probably not enough of them to justify the purchase.