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I've got an interesting question concerning, well, death and the Great Beyond.
according to the Campaign Setting, The souls of dead mortals travel through the Astral Plane until they reach the Boneyard where their final resting place is ultimatly decided.
How long is this journey, and does time flow at the same rate? (ie: it'a 4 year journey, but is that the same as 4 years on the Material Plane?) All that the Setting really says is that "Migrating souls have little to fear during their long journey..." Say a Player character died and was brough back 3 years later, what about 30 years later? Would their soul be at the Boneyard?
I see this as an important, since all raise dead spells have the condition of the soul being 'Free and Willing.' An athiest is locked away at the Boneyards graves... but if their soul hasn't reached the Boneyard yet, they're still a 'free' soul. Likewise, a soul sent to Elysium may not wish to come back. Is a soul considered free when it's being presided over in Pharasma's Courts?
I'm not trying to tear apart the afterlife, I love the thought and process of the soul that's been illustrated in the setting. But it does raise some mechanics questions, if you really break it down.
I say the correct answer is "whatever works for you".
Okay, that's a lie. The real correct answer is "whatever maks the players hate you the most."
I've got an interesting question concerning, well, death and the Great Beyond.
according to the Campaign Setting, The souls of dead mortals travel through the Astral Plane until they reach the Boneyard where their final resting place is ultimatly decided.
How long is this journey, and does time flow at the same rate? (ie: it'a 4 year journey, but is that the same as 4 years on the Material Plane?) All that the Setting really says is that "Migrating souls have little to fear during their long journey..." Say a Player character died and was brough back 3 years later, what about 30 years later? Would their soul be at the Boneyard?
I see this as an important, since all raise dead spells have the condition of the soul being 'Free and Willing.' An athiest is locked away at the Boneyards graves... but if their soul hasn't reached the Boneyard yet, they're still a 'free' soul. Likewise, a soul sent to Elysium may not wish to come back. Is a soul considered free when it's being presided over in Pharasma's Courts?
Hmmm. At first thought I would've said that the trip takes a few weeks, and that's why the Raise Dead spell only works on freshly dead bodies (i.e. their spirit has not reached the afterlife yet). But three weeks isn't necessarily a "long" trip (in terms of time; it's a long distance, I guess).
For atheists, maybe they could be raised, but not resurrected. It's a thought, anyways.
The upper limit to return is 200 years, by ressurection. So that should be the approximate time it takes until you are judged, longer than the lifetime of most humans by far.
Maybe 20 days to make it to Boneyard after death, the upper limit of raise dead.
Creative Director
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The length of time it takes for a soul to complete its journey and be judged and sent on to its final reward/punishment varies, because the ability to resurrect dead folks with spells varies. Put another way, the time that it takes a soul to complete its trip is such that the time NEVER impacts the casting of raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection.
In my mind, though, here's more details.
Raise dead can restore someone that's been dead for no longer than 1 day per caster level. That's how long it takes a soul to reach the Boneyard; once a soul reaches the Boneyard, said soul cannot be brought back with raise dead. In fact, the closer the soul gets to the Boneyard, the tougher it is to call them back (and thus, you have to be higher level to do this). So the answer to "how long does a dead soul take to get to the Boneyard) is "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign."
Reincarnate is a bit more lenient, at one week per level. In this case, you'd be able to restore to life someone who died whose soul has reached the Boneyard, but hasn't yet "fallen into line" to be judged. A new soul in the Boneyard spends a bit of time wandering, in other words.
Resurrection and true resurrection lets you restore someone who's been dead 10 years per level. That means you can call back someone who's soul is in the line to be judged, plucking them away before they get to Pharasma.
Beyond this limit, only a god or some huge exception to the rule will let you bring someone back to life.
Thanks everyone, that's pretty much in line with what I was thinking myself, just wanted some other input.
On an off note.. I think Pharasma needs to open a few more courts, get some more lawers or something.. cause wow.. that waiting line is 200 years long *grins*
Time means nothing to the dead, and anyway, devil and archon lawyers, battling the semantics of a souls actions for those in doubt is probably what makes the wait take so damned long. More lawyers is the last thing boneyard needs.
Thanks everyone, that's pretty much in line with what I was thinking myself, just wanted some other input.
On an off note.. I think Pharasma needs to open a few more courts, get some more lawers or something.. cause wow.. that waiting line is 200 years long *grins*
There are a lot of courts, and each one is pretty massive. You think she's only dealing with souls from Golarion proper? It's a big material plane after all... :)
I say the correct answer is "whatever works for you".
Okay, that's a lie. The real correct answer is "whatever makes the players hate you the most."
I am partial to the real correct answer myself - but then some one *James*cough*Jacobs*cough had to go and ruin it. :P
EDIT: What I find interesting is the kind of stuff that doesn't make into most games from the real world. The various cultures of Golarion rarely make mention of burial customs, beliefs in what happens to you in the afterlife (presumably dependant upon your patron gawd or athiesm), cool stuff like that. Some examples include deliberate desecration of one's corpse (and the ramifications thereof - IRL this even extends to autopsies), whether the custom is cremation or burial or mummification, if some one is not given 'last rites' after death.
What makes an allip, ghost, spectre or wraith spontaneously arise in one culture would not necessarily work in another. :)
Just sayin'...
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Thanks everyone, that's pretty much in line with what I was thinking myself, just wanted some other input.
On an off note.. I think Pharasma needs to open a few more courts, get some more lawers or something.. cause wow.. that waiting line is 200 years long *grins*
wow... I hate waiting in line... 200 years... in line... my definition of Hell!
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I say the correct answer is "whatever works for you".
Okay, that's a lie. The real correct answer is "whatever makes the players hate you the most."
I am partial to the real correct answer myself - but then some one *James*cough*Jacobs*cough had to go and ruin it. :P
EDIT: What I find interesting is the kind of stuff that doesn't make into most games from the real world. The various cultures of Golarion rarely make mention of burial customs, beliefs in what happens to you in the afterlife (presumably dependant upon your patron gawd or athiesm), cool stuff like that. Some examples include deliberate desecration of one's corpse (and the ramifications thereof - IRL this even extends to autopsies), whether the custom is cremation or burial or mummification, if some one is not given 'last rites' after death.
What makes an allip, ghost, spectre or wraith spontaneously arise in one culture would not necessarily work in another. :)
Just sayin'...
Yeah see if decapitating a vampire kills it makes sense to me in burial to chop those heads right on off!
Or instead of burial, since you KNOW there are undead... why not cremation instead?
Face it... makes more sense than to have the occasional horde of zombies come marching through town eating everyone's brains!
"Oh look it's uncle George coming to eat our brains. He looks good for having been dead 2 months!- Hi uncle George you look- ach uggggggggg!"
So the answer to "how long does a dead soul take to get to the Boneyard” is "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign."
What? That is not logical. Why will change depending on the level of the cleric PC, or on the NPC clerics, in each campaign? The soul travels faster at level 5 than at level 11? Why? If it depended on the level of the dead perhaps… but it seems to depend on who can revive him, and this isn't logical. The logical thing is to have a standard answer: that the journey does not always take the same, being about a month average. Or the journey takes X time, but the more the spirit departs, the more difficult is to call it for a novice cleric. Something like that, there are many explanations.
But "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign" sounds awkward...
Although my English sounds worse, I know :( Sorry, I write very badly, although I understand ok
That's how long it takes a soul to reach the Boneyard; once a soul reaches the Boneyard, said soul cannot be brought back with raise dead. In fact, the closer the soul gets to the Boneyard, the tougher it is to call them back (and thus, you have to be higher level to do this).
This I like it. But not "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign." No, please. You can not link the length of the journey to clerics's level in the campaign and that it change according to their level.
wow... I hate waiting in line... 200 years... in line... my definition of Hell!
yes!!! lol When I say that death is not good: p
I say the correct answer is "whatever works for you".
Okay, that's a lie. The real correct answer is "whatever makes the players hate you the most."
I am partial to the real correct answer myself - but then some one *James*cough*Jacobs*cough had to go and ruin it. :P
EDIT: What I find interesting is the kind of stuff that doesn't make into most games from the real world. The various cultures of Golarion rarely make mention of burial customs, beliefs in what happens to you in the afterlife (presumably dependant upon your patron gawd or athiesm), cool stuff like that. Some examples include deliberate desecration of one's corpse (and the ramifications thereof - IRL this even extends to autopsies), whether the custom is cremation or burial or mummification, if some one is not given 'last rites' after death.
What makes an allip, ghost, spectre or wraith spontaneously arise in one culture would not necessarily work in another. :)
Just sayin'...
Yeah see if decapitating a vampire kills it makes sense to me in burial to chop those heads right on off!
Or instead of burial, since you KNOW there are undead... why not cremation instead?
Face it... makes more sense than to have the occasional horde of zombies come marching through town eating everyone's brains!
"Oh look it's uncle George coming to eat our brains. He looks good for having been dead 2 months!- Hi uncle George you look- ach uggggggggg!"
Yep, pretty much my point. Korvosans may go for cremation simply because the city is basically on a big island - except they've already got a burial ground. Guess if they get just a bit bigger in population and they need that space to build more tenaments on...
Varisians may really go for cremation though.
The "Average Commoner" simply cannot afford the "return from death" magic, including everyone but adventurers and the nobility.
Be interesting...
So the answer to "how long does a dead soul take to get to the Boneyard” is "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign."What? That is not logical. Why will change depending on the level of the cleric PC, or on the NPC clerics, in each campaign? The soul travels faster at level 5 than at level 11? Why?
That's not what he's saying. He's saying "If the highest possible cleric level in your campaign is about level 40, then it takes about 40 days." But each day, the soul gets further away and it takes a more powerful cleric to draw it back with Raise Dead; that's why a level 9 cleric can bring back someone dead for 9 days, but a 20th level cleric can bring back someone dead for 20 days.
To be on the safe side, you could say it takes 100 days. It's a pretty safe bet that once you're above level 100, you're a god-like being who can punch Pharasma in the nose anyways, right?
Ah, ok, this is logical. Sorry for misunderstanding
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What? That is not logical. Why will change depending on the level of the cleric PC, or on the NPC clerics, in each campaign?You misunderstood what Jacob was saying. Not the highest level cleric available, or in the campain... but the highest level cleric possible (20th) making the journey 20 days.
No that is NOT what he said.
Quote:
So the answer to "how long does a dead soul take to get to the Boneyard) is "A number of days equal to the highest caster level for raise dead in your campaign."
AND lvl 20 is not the max lvl of a cleric that is possible. There ISN'T a max lvl. Epic levels, remember... They DO exist too.
So the CORRECT answer is... depends upon the GM. As it SHOULD be.
Why do people always insist on thinking of time as one-dimensional, one-directional?
People just go and assume that the time you spend walking the line and the time it's possible to get someone back need to be the same just because the moment you are judged and the moment you can no longer be brought back are the same.
Just because your hand obscures the sun doesn't mean that you can touch it. And that's good, because you'd be burned otherwise.
As I see it, the "consent" rule for a resurrection means that the soul, wherever it is, gets met by a psychopomp of some sort deputized by whatever god that cleric worship and takes it back to work the resurrection if it consents.
Higher level clerics using higher level spells get higher level psychopomps, able to navigate the celestial bureaucracy or bail people out of hell. And it's taken as a given that nothing ever goes wrong with this system, except when it does.
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Why do people always insist on thinking of time as one-dimensional, one-directional?
People just go and assume that the time you spend walking the line and the time it's possible to get someone back need to be the same just because the moment you are judged and the moment you can no longer be brought back are the same.
Just because your hand obscures the sun doesn't mean that you can touch it. And that's good, because you'd be burned otherwise.
Time is not a physical entity, but rather is merely the measurement of events. As such, there is no negative time, and therefore time must flow in only one direction.
Time and all of existence stops when there are no more events.
Time travel would be possible simply by returning to an event that has already happened.
In relativity this idea of time as a measurement makes perfect sense. In fact we see it happen every day. On slow days at work, the day just drifts on forever, time seems to stand still. There are relatively few events for you to experience and thus time passes slowly. On a busy day, the opposite is true. Many events take place and time seems to travel quickly. Just like space, time is relative as well.
Clocks do not measure time. Rather they measure the events of the decay of Cesium atoms. We then compare our perceived experience to clocks. A day is composed of an ordered set of events from sunrise to sunrise with minor variations. Again we compare our own perceived experiences against this rather stable experience, a shared event if you will.
So, the analogy of time does not exactly match the analogy of space, with a hand obscuring a sun. :)
BUT there is room for interpretations :) lol
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darn post eaten!
ok related to this topic...
what are the stat blocks for souls? are they all the same? Do they have levels?
I ask because another thread about TPKs had Erik Mona suggesting an adventure should exist to deal with TPKs.
well... it should be relatively easy...
the souls have about 20 days upon the Astral Flows before they reach the Boneyard. They are fed upon by Astraldaemons (I think that was their names) and tended to by angels, demon and devils, and inevitables.
The recently departed party is approached by an angel or devil, perhaps with an offer to return to life and finish their lives, in return for...
and that is why I ask for stat blocks for souls. If they are all the same, easy adventure. If they vary by level, not so easy, but doable. We have a framework, it is now necessary to populate it. To do so, I need a stat block for souls...
James, Eric, Vic, et al... what do you think? why can't there be a stat block for souls?
I am even thinking of a statb lock that keeps the INT, WIS, and CHA, and drops the physical stats you had. Maybe replace STR with INT, DEX with WIS, and CON with CHA. Your mental stats become your "metaphysical" stats as well. Powers would need to be assigned, as well as some form of defense such as AC and something akin to HP. Once we have those we are in business.
I would say Cha:- Str, the force of your personality.
Int:- Dex, how and agile your mind is.
Wis:- Con, that one's simple, Wis is already a solid, defensive statistic.
It also suits the kind of characters with those stats, for example clerics and monks will have more robust souls, and high wisdom is akin to being more serene and enlightened.
I use nWoD as inspiration, where attributes are divided Physical, Mental Social, and also by Power, Finesse and Resistance (so there's Social Power - Presence, and Mental Resistence - Resolve, and so on).
Of course, this gets confusing, since mental and social are mixed here.
Int would be the mental strength. The power of the mind.
Charisma would be mental finesse (nWoD has both Presense and Manipulation, and Cha can go either way). Wis is resistence.
So
Str-Int
Dex-Cha
Con-Wis
AND lvl 20 is not the max lvl of a cleric that is possible. There ISN'T a max lvl. Epic levels, remember... They DO exist too.
The core game assumes level 20 is the maximum. And if you plan on using epic rules, you really need to plan ahead from level 1, else it's goofy that all this epic stuff starts showing up in the world around level 18.
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AND lvl 20 is not the max lvl of a cleric that is possible. There ISN'T a max lvl. Epic levels, remember... They DO exist too.The core game assumes level 20 is the maximum. And if you plan on using epic rules, you really need to plan ahead from level 1, else it's goofy that all this epic stuff starts showing up in the world around level 18.
mmmm.... in my core books, DMG is core after all... it has the Epic rules, in fact I don't THINK there are other epic rules for 3.5 (they may have released a newer Epic Rules book but I don't remember). I see what you're saying, but epic is core, just not in the PHB. If we discounted things found only in the DMG then magic items, traps and such are not core either. So, yeah, Epic is Core to the game.
It IS easier to assume 20 as the max, but there is no reason it HAS to be.
So, Sean... since you popped in here! Help with the Soul discussion! :)
We have attributes down... what about levels and abilities? Same as living? Different? No reason they HAVE to be the same as living, no reason they can't be the same as living. Ideas?
mmmm.... in my core books, DMG is core after all... it has the Epic rules, in fact I don't THINK there are other epic rules for 3.5 (they may have released a newer Epic Rules book but I don't remember). I see what you're saying, but epic is core, just not in the PHB. If we discounted things found only in the DMG then magic items, traps and such are not core either. So, yeah, Epic is Core to the game.AND lvl 20 is not the max lvl of a cleric that is possible. There ISN'T a max lvl. Epic levels, remember... They DO exist too.The core game assumes level 20 is the maximum. And if you plan on using epic rules, you really need to plan ahead from level 1, else it's goofy that all this epic stuff starts showing up in the world around level 18.
I didn't say "there are no epic rules in the core game," I said "the core game assumes level 20 is the maximum." The default assumption is that the game runs from 1-20. Just because there's a short section of (broken, lame) epic-level rules in the DMG doesn't mean that the default D&D game assumes the existence of epic-level PCs and monsters, any more than the DMG rules for creating custom classes or monsters with class levels mean the default D&D game assumes NPCs/PCs are taking levels in witch or that there are naga barbarian PCs running around the world.
So, Sean... since you popped in here! Help with the Soul discussion! :)
Ghostwalk (q.v.)
Resurrection and true resurrection lets you restore someone who's been dead 10 years per level. That means you can call back someone who's soul is in the line to be judged, plucking them away before they get to Pharasma.Since Aroden died just 100 or so years ago, does this mean that he's still standing in line in the Boneyard?
(Actually, I suspect that Asmodeus killed Aroden and used something like soul bind to keep him dead. After all, Asmodeus benefited the most from Aroden's death. And without something like soul bind, you can't even keep an adventurer dead, let alone a deity.)
I believe it was mentioned off hand that Aroden was judged and sent on his way shortly after his death. I would suspect that they would be taken to the front of the line almost immediately limiting their ability to be ressurrected, in other words dieing gods go by different rules than other creatures that die.
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So, Sean... since you popped in here! Help with the Soul discussion! :)Ghostwalk (q.v.)
lol You just want me to buy YOUR book!
dang it... ok ok...
Now, I'm broke right now, so before I run out and buy it, anyone who has read it, or written it (ahem) does it deal with souls and adventuring as the dead? It talks about the dead lingering in physical form, but does it deal with nonphysical forms?
Yes, much of the book is about adventuring as a ghost (though mainly in a large area where all incorporeal spirits gain a tangible ectoplasm body).
Yes, much of the book is about adventuring as a ghost (though mainly in a large area where all incorporeal spirits gain a tangible ectoplasm body).
Why bother ... the Ethereal Plane = incorporeal critters are 'corporeal' ... for all practical purposes at least.
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Creative Director
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Yes, much of the book is about adventuring as a ghost (though mainly in a large area where all incorporeal spirits gain a tangible ectoplasm body).Why bother ... the Ethereal Plane = incorporeal critters are 'corporeal' ... for all practical purposes at least.
Actually, with the exception of the ghost itself (which is a weird case), incorporeal critters are not attached to the Ethereal Plane at all. The ghost is the only one that has a dual existence between the Ethereal and the Material Planes.
Actually, with the exception of the ghost itself (which is a weird case), incorporeal critters are not attached to the Ethereal Plane at all. The ghost is the only one that has a dual existence between the Ethereal and the Material Planes.Yes, much of the book is about adventuring as a ghost (though mainly in a large area where all incorporeal spirits gain a tangible ectoplasm body).Why bother ... the Ethereal Plane = incorporeal critters are 'corporeal' ... for all practical purposes at least.
Then why bother stipulating force effects are fully effective against incorporeal creatures? A curious stipulation ...
EDIT: And if non-ghostly incorporeal creatures do not co-exist on the Ethereal, where do all the naughty bits get shifted off to ?
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Creative Director
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Then why bother stipulating force effects are fully effective against incorporeal creatures? A curious stipulation ...
EDIT: And if non-ghostly incorporeal creatures do not co-exist on the Ethereal, where do all the naughty bits get shifted off to ?
Incorporeal creatures being blocked by force effects doesn't have anything to do with the Ethereal Plane, though; it just creates a solid barrier that they can't move through. In any case, an incorporeal creature isn't that way because his solid parts are elsewhere... they just don't have solid parts at all in the first place. They simply don't have a physical body at all—the Incorporeal sybtype description on page 310–311 makes no mention at all of the Ethereal Plane.
Since Aroden died just 100 or so years ago, does this mean that he's still standing in line in the Boneyard?
And what a long line it is - though apparently it's not composed solely of the dead awaiting judgement. At least the guy in front of me curiously seems to think that he's waiting in line for what he calls a "world of war craft expansion pack". He said that the last line was a lot longer, so he must be some reincarnation freak.
Why bother ... the Ethereal Plane = incorporeal critters are 'corporeal' ... for all practical purposes at least.
Sounds like you need to read this article.
So if I buy one do you autograph it? :)
There are still a few left here at Paizo, so if you order one from our webstore you'll get one that's signed AND has a drawing by me. :)
So if I buy one do you autograph it? :)There are still a few left here at Paizo, so if you order one from our webstore you'll get one that's signed AND has a drawing by me. :)
Here and I bought mine when it was new.
Honestly still haven't used it in a game but that day will come. (I do like the Monstrous Vampire template and it will probably see use before the rest of the book because it's easier to transplant.)
I have and have had up to three copies of Ghostwalk. As I would move away from a place I would donate a copy to the gaming group that remained behind. I thoroughly enjoy running Ghostwalk. It has the description of the Spiritwood where elven spirits go to reside in trees as spirits. A hint not all trees in the wood are benevolent. So any ghost that appear in Manifest are "manifested" in a corporeal form out to the edge of the Spiritwood. There are mini-adventures in the back of the book for a few levels, 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, and 12th. In the Monster category the Ectoplasmic Vermin are a wonder to behold, and a B***H to fight. I have a copy from Paizo so I got my signature and my scribble, a Carbuncle. Sean, where did I find the 3.5 upgrade and the map? Was it on your site or on WotC's site? I don't remember. One of the benefits of getting older. If you go to Sean's site in the forum's he answers a question I had of converting Ghostwalk Deities to Golarion Deities. I hope this helps.
EDIT: BTW Sean the link a couple of posts above this one doesn't work for me.
Just my 2 cp.
Why bother ... the Ethereal Plane = incorporeal critters are 'corporeal' ... for all practical purposes at least.Sounds like you need to read this article.
Jacobs straightened me out, thankyas! :)
"Ethereal is like incorporeal 'taken to eleven'..."
LOL
FIXIFIED: The Difference Between Incorporeal and Ethereal by SKR
Mucho kewlness, thanks!
I think I need to give up on doing links here. :p
Ghostwalk bonus material:
web enhanncement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20030607a
art gallery http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030615a
map gallery http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030627a
update to 3.5 http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20031225a