Bestiary Comment - Efreet & Genies

[Ross Byers]

Why is it that Djinn and Shaitan (and maybe Marids, I don't have ToH3) need special sub-breeds (Noble Djinn, Shaitan Pashas) to grant wishes, but every single Efreet can gant wishes right out of the MM?

Is there a plan to create a weaker form of Efreet that cannot grant wishes?

[primemover003]

Because Efreet are all evil and stuff and getting a wish from one of them will likely be twisted and corrupt. It's easier to get them but you gotta weigh the costs! I'm not sure if the shaitan are similar to what dao were...

--Vrock n' Rye!

[ripvanwormer]

Because in 1st edition AD&D, the genies were ranked by power. Jann were the least potent, then djinn, then dao (I think), then efreet, and finally marid. They weren't supposed to be equally powerful beings of different elemental flavors.

And the reason for that is because that's the way it was in the Arabic folklore from which they inspired. Of course, in Muslim legend, djinn are all made from smokeless fire, and the greatest of them is called the "shaitan," but there's still the idea of increasingly powerful ranks, which ties into the way things were done with all sorts of different types of creatures: i.e. the humanoids were ranked kobold, then goblin, then orc, then hobgoblin, then bugbear, and the undead were ranked skeleton, then zombie, then ghoul, then ghast. Everything came in increasing ranks of power so that the PCs would have new things to fight as they gained in level.

I think that Gygax had in mind that the PCs would travel to each of the Inner Planes, one at a time, confronting increasingly powerful genies as they went.

The Pathfinder cosmology has some of the Inner Planes as more "inner" than others, so it's even more appropriate there for the inhabitants of the "outer" inner planes to be more powerful than the "inner" ones. Djinn dwell in the Elemental Plane of Air, which is the closest to the Material Plane and thus its inhabitants are less potent than those of the exalted sphere of Fire.

[Ross Byers]

I understand that it is necessary to have genies spread out on the CR spectrum, as it provides better opportunities for adventure design. But I still think it is odd that Shaitan and Djinn have special forms that happen to be as big as an average Efreet just so they can grant wishes.

[hogarth]

Ross Byers wrote:

I understand that it is necessary to have genies spread out on the CR spectrum, as it provides better opportunities for adventure design. But I still think it is odd that Shaitan and Djinn have special forms that happen to be as big as an average Efreet just so they can grant wishes.

I agree 200%. In my game, wish-granting is only available to "noble" efreet (with the appropriately high CR for a wish-granting creature), not "commoners".

[delabarre]

It is not absolutely necessary that each elemental genie type be consistent in capabilities with the other types across the spectrum.

That being said, having established the common/noble djinni hierarchy in the SRD, it would make sense that each elemental type would have a similar hierarchy (and these were fully statted out in the 2E Al'Qadim Monstrous Compendium appendix).

[James Jacobs]

The simple answer is "variety." It's easy to fall into the trap of "They must all work the same and be equal" when designing monsters that fit into a pattern, such as genies or giants or elementals. That might appeal to the OCD type of game design, but it's not as interesting to have variations on power. In the case of the genies, you have an interesting setup in that the only good aligned one is one of the least powerful. It's a nice contrast to what you see for the powerful outsider races, where the most powerful creatures (planetars and solars) are the good guys.

[delabarre]

James Jacobs wrote:

That might appeal to the OCD type of game design...

Actually, that would be OCPD (Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder).

<.<

>.>

...what?

;-)

[Ross Byers]

James Jacobs wrote:

The simple answer is "variety." It's easy to fall into the trap of "They must all work the same and be equal" when designing monsters that fit into a pattern, such as genies or giants or elementals. That might appeal to the OCD type of game design, but it's not as interesting to have variations on power. In the case of the genies, you have an interesting setup in that the only good aligned one is one of the least powerful. It's a nice contrast to what you see for the powerful outsider races, where the most powerful creatures (planetars and solars) are the good guys.

I was about to reply 'then why not have some kind of Genie that can't grant wishes at all?' Then I though of Jann. Touche. Thanks, James!

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

Oh, all Djinn can grant wishes too. It's just that they're moral and don't swing around that sort of magic until they're competent at it.

Efreet? It's actually incompetence for the most part, covered with a good Bluff check with a circumstance modifier for Efreet reputation.

EFREET: "But worthy one, you wished for a castle in the air! You never specified that it STAY in the air!"

[Snorter]

Haven't we got two threads for this, based on the same initial post?

Is it possible to roll them together?

[Snorter]

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

EFREET: "But worthy one, you wished for a castle in the air! You never specified that it STAY in the air!"

Efreet: "There, you go; Liberace the Leprechaun, for your delight and amusement"

Sultan: "You idiot! What would I need with a twelve-inch pianist?"