The Web spell vs. CMB


Playtest Reports


We just found (after the groups sorcerer took the web spell) that it's easier to escape a web spell after you've failed your save because, at least in the case of my group, a characters' CMB mod is higher than his/her reflex save. So, they're pretty much only affected by the web for one round... or, what actually happened, the otyugh was only affected for one round.

The party was 4th level at this point, so Web should still be pretty usefull.

We were thinking of making the CMB check 10 or 15 plus the save. With a +10 adjustment, the Paladin would have to roll a 15 rather than a 5 to escape... or something similar.

Any thoughts?

Silver Crusade

Chuck Mount wrote:

We just found (after the groups sorcerer took the web spell) that it's easier to escape a web spell after you've failed your save because, at least in the case of my group, a characters' CMB mod is higher than his/her reflex save. So, they're pretty much only affected by the web for one round... or, what actually happened, the otyugh was only affected for one round.

The party was 4th level at this point, so Web should still be pretty usefull.

We were thinking of making the CMB check 10 or 15 plus the save. With a +10 adjustment, the Paladin would have to roll a 15 rather than a 5 to escape... or something similar.

Any thoughts?

I think the power downgrade for the web spell may have been intentional. The PHB version of the spell was a VERY powerful area denial/entrapment spell versus all but the strongest or most skilled targets. It honestly was a better area denial/entrapment spell than some higher level wizard spells, such as Solid Fog.

The power level is probably a bit more appropriate. Don't forget, even the target breaks free, the area of the spell is considered difficult terrain, hampering movement further.

At fourth level, the warrior type characters probably have a CMB in the 6 to 8 range (BAB 4 + STR mod), against the spells DC of 14 to 16 (base 10+ level 2 spell + caster's stat mod). This would give them a rough 60% chance to break free - which sounds appropriate for strong character (or large monster).

I'm thinking it might be OK. If you want it tougher for your campaign - maybe the DC for breaking free of the web could be base 15 + level 2 spell + caster's stat mod for CMB checks, and base 10 + level 2 spell + caster's stat mod for escape artist checks?

Contributor

From a Game Master POV, I actually like how web was nerfed. In 3.5, a 2nd-level wizard or sorcerer (especially a sorcerer, who could just cast it over and over) could really reduce a group of, say, orcs to sitting ducks. In 3.5, orcs had a +0 to Ref and a Str mod of +3. If the sorcerer had an 18 Cha, that meant the Ref was against a DC of 16 and the Str checks (at standard actions!) were vs. DC 20. It was a real joy-kill in my campaigns.

Now, at least, the orcs have a fighting chance, but the spellcaster still benefits from throwing them in difficult terrain, possibly causing them to lose 1 standard action, and, if they were snipers, ruining their tactical advantage by providing cover.

However, I do see your point. If you feel it's too nerfed, you could just bring the DC 20 back rather than the spell's DC for the CMB check (which would raise the DC anywhere from 4 to 8 points, maybe more, depending on the caster's appropriate attribute score).

EDIT TO ADD: sowhereaminow already said a lot that I said!

Silver Crusade

Hank Woon wrote:


EDIT TO ADD: sowhereaminow already said a lot that I said!

Ninja Badger strikes agai...umm, for the first time ever!

Sorry Hank, great minds and all that...

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Pawns, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
sowhereaminow wrote:
I think the power downgrade for the web spell may have been intentional.

I like to think so...I had a party defeat a dragon once just because it got webbed. I really started hating that spell.


I truly hope that the check is really low, but in this case it seems a bit too low; in case this was a typo, I posted in the Magic and Spells - Errata and Typos thread, in order to have an official feedback.

Scarab Sages

Maybe we should have a Greater Web spell, for a higher DC (over and above the normal increased DC for higher level spell, and possibly higher caster stat)?


since the spell is so easy to evade i'm not shure difficult terrain is enough i do agree that bigger creatures be less affected
but it should have a stronger slow effect than difficult terrain
or move it to first level

Scarab Sages

bden wrote:

since the spell is so easy to evade i'm not shure difficult terrain is enough i do agree that bigger creatures be less affected

but it should have a stronger slow effect than difficult terrain
or move it to first level

You could reduce it to 1/4 movement or even just say only 5-feet per round (similar to the 3.5E crawling-while-prone) or use the PF equivalent of crawling which is 5-feet as a move action.


Does the affected dude need to take a standard action to 'break' the grapple (end the grapple condition)?

This occured last night in our session.

The 4th level wizard webbed a Hill Giant. The Hill Giant failed the reflex save and gained the grappled condition. He could choose to burn a standard action to escape the grapple (he should easily succeed against the DC 15 web with his savage CMB). Now the grappled condition then ends. From that point the Hill Giant is free to maraud around in the (now difficult) terrain without re-saving?

If so it's not that bad. It occupied a big bad with a crappy Reflex save for a round.

Contributor

nedleeds wrote:

Does the affected dude need to take a standard action to 'break' the grapple (end the grapple condition)?

Correct, it requires a standard action to break free (via CMB check or Escape Artist), after which no more saves are required. In addition to the difficult terrain and cover from any pesky rocks he may have had, anyone in the party could have set his square on fire, causing 2d4 fire damage. ;)

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