Yesterday, one of my groups and I had the possibility (and the time) to playtest some of the high-level challenges proposed by Jason in these Forums. One is posted here, while the other is posted here.
The group was composed by a Paladin, a Monk, a Druid, and a Wizard (I used the pre-made characters posted by me here). I used also the proposed ‘Improved Standard Attack Action’ (on BaB +11 or more, a character can make two iterative attacks as a standard action)
The group was scattered into the marsh, trying to find an Old Black Dragon and kill him.
Entering Bhetah-Thezz’t , Old Black Dragon:
Skills: Fly +24, Intimidate +30, Knowledge (Arcana) +30, Perception +34, Sense Motive +34, Spellcraft +30, Stealth +20, Swim +45
Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack (+9), Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (claw)
Spells Known: 0) Acid Splash/ Dancing Lights/ Detect Magic/ Light/ Mage Hand/ Read Magic/ Resistance; 1) Charm Person/ Mage Armor/ Magic Missile/ Protection from Good/ Shield; 2) Blur/ Mirror Image/ See Invisibility; 3) Dispel Magic/ Stinking Cloud
Preparations:
Druid: Barkskin (on himself), Resist Energy (Acid) (on himself), Magic Fang (on the Wolf companion), Animal Growth (on the Wolf Companion), Freeedom of Movement (on the Monk)
Paladin: Shield Other (for the Mount), Divine Favor (on himself), Protection from Evil (on the Mount), Resist Energy (Acid) (on himself)
Monk: Potion of Displacement
Wizard: Fly (on himself), Protection from Energy (Acid) (on himself), Mirror Image (8 images present), Enlarge Person (on the Druid), Summon Monster VI – summoned a Large Air Elemental
Dragon: Shield, Mage Armor, Mirror Image (3 images present), Protection from Good, Blur
Initiative count: Monk/ Wolf/ Paladin/ Wizard+Elemental/ Dragon/ Druid/ Horse
Before combat, the Dragon was hidden in a large pool 60 feet away from the group. His Stealth check was a 38, plus modifiers from being partially submerged (a +2), plus the distance (a +6). The Monk realized a grand total of 44 on his Perception check, which was not sufficient to notice the Dragon.
Surprise round: Dragon makes a move and soars up in the air, to a total distance of around 150 feet from the party (in order to breath the next round)
Round 1) Monk draws the bow and fires two arrows – miss; the Wolf howls in anger; the Paladin draws the bow and fires two arrows – miss; the Wizard casts Confusion SR 22 for an Elf Wizard with Spell Penetration is a joke – ST succeeds, Elemental moves and strikes – miss on a side note, due to the presence of Protection from Good, until the spell is not eliminated, the Elemental cannot strike anyway – but with only +12 vs. a 40 AC plus Blur plus Mirror Image…; Dragon Frightful Presence (only the Horse fails the Save) a Mount shares the Spells but not the immunities of the Paladin ? how lame…, moves (AoO from the Elemental, useless) and Breathes on Monk and Druid – Monk saves (0 damage), Druid fails (36 damage, reduced to 6), 4 rounds to wait for the Breath; Druid starts to cast Call Lightning Storm one of the keys to victory; Horse does nothing
Round 2) Monk makes a charismatic move (this particular player is known for his almost-suicidal maneuvers); Abundant Step on the back of the Dragon the rules do not clearly forbid to use Dimension Door on a space such as the back of a flying creature, plus the Dragon is sized like a small backyard, Acrobatics check to stay in balance, Standard action to attack with Gorgon Fist – the miracle happens, a natural 20 (not critical), on the real target, bypass Blur – the Dragon makes the save but takes 13 hp; Wolf does nothing; Paladin full attack with bow (useless); Wizard casts Horrid Wilting – Save succeeds, 29 hp only – Elemental flails without effect; Dragon takes vengeance on the Monk nothing prevents a creature to full-attack somebody who is riding him, but I (reasonably) prevented the Wings attacks (the Dragon had to fly anyway) , Full attack with Power Attack – Bite and 2 Claws strike, 75 hp damage the player reminded me 3 rounds later of his Displacement – oh, well, too bad for him…; Druid starts with his rain of Lightnings, SR bypassed, save failed – 21 hp damage this was a well-placed move… since the spell bypassed SR the first time, it was no more necessary to check SR again, as on page 397-398; Horse still does nothing
Round 3) Monk decides to withdraw with Abundant Step again, appears where he started, and drinks a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds (12 hp); Wolf does nothing; Paladin fires with bow – useless; Wizard makes the best move, Greater Dispel Magic – all buffs on Dragon go away, AC is 32 again, Elemental flails without result tough; Dragon Casts Defensively Stinking Cloud on the (relatively) clustered party – all make their save; Druid moves (even with only 15ft of movement, he managed to exit from the cloud), another Lightning – Dragon saves, 10 hp; Horse moves out of cloud with the Paladin Horseshoe of Zephyr are the key to victory in this fight…
Round 4) Monk moves out of the cloud, sees the Paladin, and moves near him (80 feet without being influenced by terrain, thanks to Freedom of Movement, are very much), using Wholeness of Body in the meantime; Wolf comes out of the cloud; Paladin uses lay on Hands for 30 hp on the Monk; Wizard moves out of the cloud (15 feet – he was barely inside the cloud from the beginning) and casts Disintegrate on Dragon – Save made, 27 hp (LUCKY roll), Elemental starts to realize his uselessness missing again; Dragon casts Shield again; Druid goes with ‘Da BOMB’ (Fire Seeds) – hit succeeds, 50 hp damage; Horse delays to the Initiative of the Paladin
Round 5) Monk moves around the cloud, near the Druid this involuntary is the doom of the Dragon… lined up are the Monk, the Druid (one near the other) and, past the edge of the cloud, the Wizard… Dragon starts to think where his recharged Breath goes…; Wolf does nothing; Paladin (with the Horse) moves a bit and fires with the bow – again, useless; Wizard casts Hold Monster (although the Dragon is immune to paralysis !!!), Elemental misses again; Dragon decides to move in order to Breath the characters (AoO from Elemental, miss), but in order to hit all 3 targets must lower his altitude this is his doom… to 10 ft, Breath on Monk (ST failed – 20 damage thanks to Improved Evasion), Druid (ST failed, 40 reduced to 10 thanks to Resist Energy), Wizard (ST failed, but Protection from Energy soaks all the damage); Druid throws another Lightning for 10 hp total
Round 6) Monk moves, tumbles across the threatened area (succeeds !), jumps (succeeds) and makes a Flying Kick with Quivering Palm included – and misses…; Wolf does nothing; Paladin ‘Drop da REAL BOMB’, Smite Evil Spirited Charge with the Lance (since he is mounting his Horse, he is able to reach the Dragon who is slightly hovering at 10ft from ground) move action to take the Lance, the Horse is charging… is this legit ? I don’t know, but yesterday I didn't notice this anyway – 85 hp with a single hit; Wizard makes ultimate combo, Bonded Item casts Clenched Fist although it was not a memorized spell, it was a known spell written on his spellbook, so I thought it was legit - hit for 16 hp, Dragon FAILED ST vs STUN !!! - , casts Empowered Fireball for 21 hp, Elemental sadly misses again, Attack of Opportunity from the Paladin the Dragon, stunned, cannot fly anymore and splats prone into the swamp; falling in front of the Paladin, he is currently moving out of squares of his threatened area… – misses; Dragon is stunned and Prone into the swamp (AC 30, thanks to Shield); Druid decides to make Monk the hero of the day, and casts Greater Dispel Magic (…)
Round 7) Monk makes Kenshiro (from Hokuto no Ken) pale in comparison… ‘Hokuto Shinken – HyakuretsuKen’ (a.k.a. Vital Strike Medusa’s Wrath plus extra attack from Ki pool = 7 attacks) – 5 hits, 2 misses (on AC 26, with a 6 attacks at +21 and one at +16… how sad…) and makes for a grand total of 104 hp of damage, killing the beast !!!
Final thoughts: for a CR 16, I expected a bit of more challenge… although the Dragon made a terrible mistake (although a realistic one), he was already about one-third hp damaged without being a real threat up to the moment… perhaps a bit of Flyby Attacks with the Bite could have made more damage, but after the second round he was already stripped of his buffs, and Flyby Attack does not avoid AoO, like Spring Attack instead does…
16d4 Breath Weapon are really lame, the Dragon died without damaging the party (except the kamikaze Monk)
My players however were so much enthralled by these two fights that asked me for an ‘over the top’ fight when we have spare time; they agreed to meet an ‘impossible fight’ – a CR20 Balor – with these 15th-level characters, to see if with the current rules they are too much powerful or not…
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Hey Wraith,
Nice job on the play test and subsequent report.
A couple of things...
Did you allow the Monk's Abundant Step to auto succeed onto the back of the "real" dragon, as opposed to accidentally choosing one of the mirror images as his destination, due to the wording of Dimension Door? I only ask because I think this could result in a few other loopholes around Mirror Image. Not that I have thought of any. Yet.
Secondly, and this is a minor quibble, Dimension Door states that, "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." Meaning the Monk would not have been able to make his "miraculous" attack on the dragon that same round. Same with drinking his potion after stepping off of the dragon. Not really a game breaker here, but it could be given your monk using this same tactic in another play test.
Cheers
Secondly, and this is a minor quibble, Dimension Door states that, "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." Meaning the Monk would not have been able to make his "miraculous" attack on the dragon that same round. Same with drinking his potion after stepping off of the dragon. Not really a game breaker here, but it could be given your monk using this same tactic in another play test.
Cheers
Just a little FYI Abundant step is a move action. It is an effect like Dimension Door, but it is not Dimension Door. Says so under the ability... So that part is kewl enuff!! ;-)
Take care out there!
Gworeth
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Secondly, and this is a minor quibble, Dimension Door states that, "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." Meaning the Monk would not have been able to make his "miraculous" attack on the dragon that same round. Same with drinking his potion after stepping off of the dragon. Not really a game breaker here, but it could be given your monk using this same tactic in another play test.
Cheers
Just a little FYI Abundant step is a move action. It is an effect like Dimension Door, but it is not Dimension Door. Says so under the ability... So that part is kewl enuff!! ;-)
Take care out there!
Gworeth
Ah crap! And I give my players grief for not reading the entire paragraph carefully. Hope none of them read this post! ;)
Cheers
The wizard's elemental might have been marginally more useful if it had tried to grapple the dragon instead of hitting it, especially after it was debuffed. The dragon probably could've easily broken away if the grapple succeeded but it would've kept it from doing other things.
Air Walk on the wolf would've helped it contribute. Perhaps it could've flanked the dragon with the elemental to set up easier grapples or even a "trip" attempt in the air.
As a player I know I wouldn't have been able to resist trying. Just because it looks kewl when I picture it in my head. At least that's what the voices say....
Secondly, and this is a minor quibble, Dimension Door states that, "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn." Meaning the Monk would not have been able to make his "miraculous" attack on the dragon that same round. Same with drinking his potion after stepping off of the dragon. Not really a game breaker here, but it could be given your monk using this same tactic in another play test.
Cheers
Just a little FYI Abundant step is a move action. It is an effect like Dimension Door, but it is not Dimension Door. Says so under the ability... So that part is kewl enuff!! ;-)
Take care out there!
Gworeth
Ah, then they should prolly re-word that a bit, as I would be inclined to retain the "do nothing after use" element of dimension door. However, the spirit of the ability is pretty clear - give the monk a *pouf-n-whack* ability.
as i have actually seen a character trip an ooze under water, i know how you feel. However, it is stated in the rules that you cannot tripin certian situations, like the afore mentioned, and flying. At least, at this late hour that is how i remember it in PF.
This is something the trip rule should address. Obviously you can't trip someone to prone in midair. But such a maneuver certainly would mess up it flight pattern, lose it some altitude, and probably require a full round or standard action to reorient itself in midair. More of a toss than a trip but something I would probably allow in my game.
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In 3.5 you can trip a natural flier (one with wings). Failure results in the flier stalling and falling 150 feet in the first round, 300 in the second and subsequent rounds.
One question is why was the Paladin's mount so far away from him???
As for using abundant step to attack the dragon... how much bigger was the dragon than the monk? 2 or 3 sizes larger? If so the monk could share the space without having to grapple (by making a Climb check to keep his purchase)
If the larger creature moves during its action, the clinging creature moves along with it. The larger can throw off the clinging creature with a grapple (a standard action) opposed by the clinging creature's Climb check.
--Vrockslide!
I think in any case (flying/swimming... burrowing?) "Tripping" an opponent should still make them "Prone", though that literally might not "Look" the same for a swimmer or flyer (compared to someone standing on ground).
A "Tripped" flyer or swimmer could also be forced to make a new swim/fly check opposed to the Tripper's CMB or drop altitude/start floundering-drowning. Spending a Move Action on the appropriate Movement Type (and passing the check, if necessary) is sufficient to return them to "normal".
That rule qualification re: Climb/avoiding getting dropped is interesting.
I think it could be updated slightly for Pathfinder (to reflect the "droppers"' CMB), but it should definitely fit in somewhere (either under Climb if that tack is taken, or under Grapple/CMB)
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Yeah Swimmers and burrowers can't be tripped. You've got to somehow be able to be knocked down to be tripped.
Winged Flyers and Creatures standing on limbs, climbing with limbs, or riding a mount can all be tripped.
--I'm gonna Vrock you out. Mamma said Vrock you out...
One question is why was the Paladin's mount so far away from him???
You mean, from the Dragon, or from the Paladin? The Mount was under the Paladin (who was riding it); it simply moved out of the cloud, right on the edge. If you mean from the Dragon, well, the Dragon was flying at about 100 feet high...
Assuming the Dragon was North-East and the cloud South, the Mount leaved the cloud on the NW edge. This is a (horrible) ASCII map:_______B
________
________
__PM____
__XXXX__
_XXXXXX_
_XXXXXX_
_WXXXXD_
_______A
P=Paladin+Mount, M=Monk, W=Wizard, D= Druid, A=Animal Companion (not in scale), B= Black Dragon (not in scale), X=Stinking Cloud
when the Monk moved, it was something like this:
_______B
________
________
__P_____
__XXXX__
_XXXXXX_
_XXXXXX_
_WXXXXDM
_______A
so the Dragon moved:
_______________
__P____________
__XXXX_________
_XXXXXX________
_XXXXXX________
_WXXXXDM_____B_
_______A_______
and the rest is history.
The Monk couldn't have used Abundant Step as he did. It duplicates dimension door, and the only listed change from that spell is a move action "cast" time. Thus, it maintains the "cannot act after using this ability" clause from the spell. Debates about whether it should maintain that clause are one thing, but the rules are clear, and this playtest was intended to assess the power level of players, so it's relevant.
Further, the dragon didn't make very good use of its tactical options. It had greater reach than the PCs (15 feet with its bite), so it had no risk of AoOs when making Flyby Attacks. It should also have had the Snatch feat, so that it could initiate grapple checks on Flyby Attacks with its bite. Snatch, fly up 200 feet, biting along the way, drop. The PCs' pitiful ranged attacks wouldn't have come anywhere near killing it before it had finished off the ones with actual ranged attacks worth worrying about this way (wizard and druid). After the casters were dead, it's a fairly simple matter to hover out of range of the other two and chew them up. Also note that a character Snatched by a bite attack gets no save against a breath weapon from the Snatcher. Easy way to handle rogues, although monks would still be dangerous thanks to all those natural attacks.
Flyby Attack, Wingover, Hover, and Snatch are, IMO, absolutely required feats for any dragon of decent intelligence. You could probably get away with not giving the whole group to younger Whites, but an Old Black Dragon would absolutely have had them and known how to use them.
Air Walk on the wolf would've helped it contribute.
Or on the Paladin's mount.
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The Monk couldn't have used Abundant Step as he did. It duplicates dimension door, and the only listed change from that spell is a move action "cast" time. Thus, it maintains the "cannot act after using this ability" clause from the spell. Debates about whether it should maintain that clause are one thing, but the rules are clear, and this playtest was intended to assess the power level of players, so it's relevant.
Ah ha, so the plot thickens! I must admit, as one who has never played a monk (in 30+ years of playing), I missed this whole "Using this ability is a move action" part of the description the first go around. I can see this interpreted both ways. On one hand it is like dimension door, but it is not actually dimension door. On the other, it is dimension door with the mentioned "move action casting time" activation.
I think the question that I would have to ask would be, why is it a move action that activates the ability instead of a standard action? It would seem to imply that one could take a standard action in the same round after the abundant step. Abundant step (move) and standard action (attack).
The answer to this I guess could be that the standard action can be used but must be used before the move equivalent action, allowing for standard action (attack) and then abundant step (move). More defensive than offensive.
I think I might actually be leaning to Zurai's interpretation, as it stands as written. The RAW reference the spell and do not specify any other modifications to the spells description. The no further action clause would still be in effect.
Either way would be fine with me in the long run, but the wording could be cleared up to avoid problems/arguments.
Cheers
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I take it by the lack of comments, nobody else thought that the abundant step made by the monk onto the "real" dragon's back was an issue? Despite the dragon having 3 mirror images present, which may (or may not) have caused a little problem targeting the actual dragon for his destination?
Nobody?
I realize that dimension door includes "You always arrive at exactly the spot desired — whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction" in its description. However I don't believe that this allows for an end run around the mirror images. I think the spell is really meant to move you from one place to another place.
"simply visualizing the area"
I realize, and agree that the dragon's back could be considered an area (technically you could choose the area right above the dragon's back and fall onto the dragons back, but I digress). However, not when the dragon's current and/or actual location is unknown.
Otherwise this would allow for an end run around all anti-location/anti-scrying as well as other location illusion spells (ie. project image, invisibility).
"I am visualizing myself dimension dooring to the same location (read same square) as person X," even though I don't have any clue where this person is right now. I'll take the shunt damage (1d6) to flawlessly locate someone within range (minimum 640').
That doesn't seem right to me.
Anybody else?
[EDIT] Still a cool move on the part of the player. If he had just done it after the greater dispel. ;)
Cheers
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Actually i just figured the monk picked one and happend to be right.
I could go either way on the A.S. the monk appear instantly at the enemies rear, bypassing all reistance, Should he be able to wack/grapple the caster? Being a monk fu type guy, i would say yes. Or if he couldn't would require a spot check to be seen by anyone not looking in the ditertion of his appearance. No rule needed to be written, just how i would GM it.
Ok, some answers:
- Snatch can be used on creatures 3 sizes smaller than the creature that tries to Snatch; so, a Huge Dragon can Snatch only a Small or smaller creature. This is the reason I didn't give him the feat.
- The Mount rolled for Initiative because it's a creature by itself, not a Summoned creature (like the Large Air Elemental) who has the same Initiative count of the summoner. Perhaps I misjudged (easy, I admit), but until both Paladin and Mount decided to charge (and so, by rules, were forced to work as a 'single unit') I allowed the Horse to do what he wished (thanks to his 6 Intelligence) even with the Paladin on board.
- Since I used the pre-made Druid posted by me here, as you can see he didn't have Air Walk memorized...
- Regarding (a question not already posed) the various Potions of Fly the party had, they didn't drink them because the only characters with ranks in Fly skill were the Druid and the Wizard... without ranks in Fly, trying to fly towards the Dragon and attack would have been VERY difficult (Fly is Trained Only, so even with the +4 from good maneuverability the characters could not roll anyway...)
- Mirror Image now works differently from 3.x: the images actually SHARE the space of the creature casting it, so the Monk simply picked the 'cluster of Dragons' and went there
- Abundant Step says
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is 1/2 his monk level."
It doesn't say 'the Monk casts Dimension Door as a Spell-like ability', it's a Supernatural ability that works SIMILARLY to Dimension Door - it seems natural to me that a Supernatural move action allows a standard action, either before or after
Thanks for the feedback to all of you!
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Ok, some answers:
- Snatch can be used on creatures 3 sizes smaller than the creature that tries to Snatch; so, a Huge Dragon can Snatch only a Small or smaller creature. This is the reason I didn't give him the feat.
I ran an encounter recently with a pair of old white dragons with Snatch and Improved Snatch (let's you snatch larger creatures than normal), and Snatch and Swallow from Draconomicon. It was a blast having the dragons pick up and swallow the less physical PCs, take flight and digest their meal from on high. Any creature that has Snatch just has to have the other two feats, IMHO.
I ran an encounter recently with a pair of old white dragons with Snatch and Improved Snatch (let's you snatch larger creatures than normal), and Snatch and Swallow from Draconomicon. It was a blast having the dragons pick up and swallow the less physical PCs, take flight and digest their meal from on high. Any creature that has Snatch just has to have the other two feats, IMHO.
What you say is true, but I tried to run this playtest with only the 'vanilla' PFRPG material (without access to external sources).
I admit that the poor Bhetah-Thezz't could have been played better, but:Round 1) he uses Breath (usually, a good move)
Round 2) he full-attacks the Monk (a good move)
Round 3) he casts Stinking Cloud (not a good move because his DC for spells stinks (...), but he hoped to nerf the casters anyway)
Round 4) he casts Shield (an average move... in order to avoid damage from melee attacks if he moves too close to the party)
Round 5) he uses Breath (in this specific case, not a good move, but he thought it was)
Round 6) he is stunned
Round 7) he dies
The Breath of an Old Black Dragon deals too little damage, IMHO (16d4...); he even succeeded on damaging the Monk (DC is ok), but a Resist Energy 30 nullifies it almost completely (and this means even a 11th-level caster can do it)...
Another note: I let the Wizard use Arcane Bond in the same round he cast an Empowered Fireball. I admit that I'm not totally sure on how Arcane Bond works exactly, and I think that it's THE ITEM that casts the spell (burning a swift action from the Wizard); in this specific fight, the 21 hp from the Fireball were not a great difference in the end, but I would like to know if this is the intended idea behind Arcane Bond or not. Specifically, does it allow a WIZARD to cast an extra (non-prepared) spell every day, or is THE ITEM which cast it, much like a Familiar who possesses a spell-like ability ?
- Abundant Step says
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is 1/2 his monk level."
It doesn't say 'the Monk casts Dimension Door as a Spell-like ability', it's a Supernatural ability that works SIMILARLY to Dimension Door - it seems natural to me that a Supernatural move action allows a standard action, either before or after
It does allow a standard action before. However, when your only guideline is "as if using the spell dimension door except it's a move action", you have absolutely no rules basis to start eliminating other pieces of the spell text. The monk cannot make an action after using abundant step. Spell vs spell-like ability vs supernatural ability has absolutely no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.
I'll give you a pass on Snatch; the wording on the feat in the MM is unclear but the wording of Improved Snatch in the Draconomicon clears up the intent.
@Wraith: The wording of Arcane Bond pretty clearly indicates it allows the WIZARD to cast a spell.
I see nothing to indicate the Bonded Item itself has any intelligence or "agency",
and in any case, there's definetely nothing referring to a "Swift Action".
I agree the wording could be cleared up, because saying "cast like a normal Spell" doesn't clearly enough indicate it's the same Action as Casting a Spell, just that the OUTCOME is the same.
Re: Abundant Step/ Mirror Image
M.I. could probably be clarified a bit, but I wouldn't have allowed the monk bypass it as easily as you did (he should still have rolled). Even if you consider the images to all be in the same space (the dragon takes up several squares), the Monk still needs to target a specific spot accurately:
Smaller creatures can actually "share the space" of larger creatures, right? But they are still targeted individually. Likewise, when you correctly target the square where an invisible being is, you must roll concealment%. Even if the Monk targets the same SPACE (squares) as the Dragon, if he chooses the wrong image, he may end up falling thru empty space by it's tail, or buffetting off it's wingtip, or straight into it's jaws (etc...)
Otherwise, M.I. doesn't really have any effect AT ALL, since any attack or spell can simply target "the square" where the target is ...I think you get my idea :-)
I *DO* think the fight could have gone quite differently if the Dragon had used different tactics. Re: Snatch/etc, if the Dragon had simply activated an Enlarge Self item, he could use such an ability against the PCs... Likewise, I would have actually had the Dragon attack/do something on the first round (taking advantage of the awesome Stealth), not just fly up. So, preparing with Mirror Image, Shield, any other Buffs (why would anyone NOT cast this before hand instead of mid-battle? dragons are not dumb!), an initial SLA to hamper the party/ immediately separate a weak caster type from the party would be very effective. Using Burrow could also be effective (disrupting targeting). Of course, if they were Dragon hunting, the Paladin could have been concentrating on Detect Evil while riding his mount :-)
That said, still interesting!
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Very constructive discussion all around.
Wraith, I'm still hung up on the reference of dimension door in the description of abundant step. If they reference the spell I would think that the implication is, barring explicit wording to the contrary, that all rules governing the spell need to be applied. The only change they list is the "casting time" portion with the move action bit. If they didn't want to include the other restrictions of dimension door they could just as easily have made the description of abundant step read:
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces as a move action. You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range (400' + 20'/monk level). You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. Using this ability consumes 2 points from his ki pool. (Including any rules for bringing objects and other creatures, as well as shunting rules, if desired.)"
Or they could have simply added the caveat to the existing description that all rules for dimension door are enforced save the "no further actions" clause.
Either way the wording needs to be cleaned up IMO.
While I agree the spirit of the ability is probably aimed at "poof-and-attack", I have my reservations. If the actual spell does not allow for move and attack combos(full attack!), should a supernatural ability based on it, allow this tactic? Keep in mind the spell allows for additional creatures to be brought with the "caster". Can the monk then also bring along others? Nothing in the current description for abundant step addresses this, other than referencing the spell. You must consider those implications before deciding on whether to drop the no further actions restriction. The spell allows multiple creatures to move and then does not allow any of them to take "any other actions" (not even free actions following the RAW!). Yet the monk would be allowed to bring creatures along, and all of them could then make full attacks? Not in my game.
Ultimately, it really doesn't matter to me which way prevails. Either you follow the spell or you make the abundant step it's own unique ability, with it's own description/restrictions.
Cheers
Keep in mind the spell allows for additional creatures to be brought with the "caster". Can the monk then also bring along others?
Yes.
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Re: Abundant Step/ Mirror Image
M.I. could probably be clarified a bit, but I wouldn't have allowed the monk bypass it as easily as you did (he should still have rolled). Even if you consider the images to all be in the same space (the dragon takes up several squares), the Monk still needs to target a specific spot accurately:
Smaller creatures can actually "share the space" of larger creatures, right? But they are still targeted individually. Likewise, when you correctly target the square where an invisible being is, you must roll concealment%. Even if the Monk targets the same SPACE (squares) as the Dragon, if he chooses the wrong image, he may end up falling thru empty space by it's tail, or buffetting off it's wingtip, or straight into it's jaws (etc...)
Otherwise, M.I. doesn't really have any effect AT ALL, since any attack or spell can simply target "the square" where the target is ...I think you get my idea :-)
This was my concern as well.
And actually, if the Monk rolls for the Mirror Images and DOESN'T get the real one, that basically would teleport him in the same general area, but he's immediately falling!, which likely provokes an AoO from the Dragon!
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Actually Mirror Image works exactly the same way as it did in 3.5, the images have always been in the casters space. But that's really not a big deal considering how big the dragon is...
As for the mount, it acts on the Riders initiative (see mounted combat in the combat chapter). So it moves where you direct it using it's move action. You benefit by gaining a move action (to reload a xbow, or pull a potion, etc.), a +1 to hit smaller creatures than the mount, and a higher speed.
Idk, I guess I would've dropped an area Dispel over a Stinking cloud to get rid of their obvious Acid resistance.
--Vrock'em, Sock'em Robots!
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Actually Mirror Image works exactly the same way as it did in 3.5, the images have always been in the casters space. But that's really not a big deal considering how big the dragon is...
In the case of the dragon, that is spaces. ;)
Which IMO still allows for the monk to miss the "real" dragon and fall. He aims for the cluster of dragons and hopes to be able to grab the real dragon. The spell is specifically designed to make targeting the protected creature difficult, whether it be melee, ranged, spells or other type of contact/attack. Just as Quandary stated above, if you allow the targeting of the squares to bypass the spell then MI fails completely to be effective.
I would think that only reason the spell states the images are contained within the casters space is the practical reason that the "game" world is marked out on a grid. Imagine the battle map if the images needed their own squares (you plus a possible 8 images). All sorts of problems then.
On a side note, the whole thing is a little suspect anyways. How exactly do you convincingly have a possible 9 medium sized creatures inhabiting a single 5x5 square? Visually it would have to look like The Matrix's Neo in bullet time. Only better.
Cheers
Ok, some more clarifications:
- Mirror Image is actually different than before.
SRD Version:
"Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck."
PFRPG Version:
"This spell creates a number of illusionary doubles of you that inhabit your square. These doubles make it difficult for enemies to precisely locate and attack you."
"Whenever you are attacked or are the target of a spell that requires an attack roll, there is a possibility that the attack targets one of your images instead."
So, for example, Magic Missile hits you without failure chance (it doesn't require an attack roll); following the same rule, a Dimension Door cannot be fooled, either (it doesn't require an attack roll).
- Regarding Abundant Step:
"Abundant Step (Su): At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is 1/2 his monk level."
This sentence doesn't say 'the monk can use Dimension Door (as Supernatural ability) as a Move Action'. It's worded almost exactly like Wild Shape:
"This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back)is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with."
Abundant Step doesn't say anything about 'Monk can bring other creatures with him', doesn't say 'move action, but Monk cannot take standard actions after he uses the power', etc. The reference to Dimension Door is there (IMHO) as a reference to the distance and the 'teleport' effect (can slip magically between spaces, as if using Dimension Door), nothing else. Either this, or the ability is a)not very useful for the Monk and b)useful only for other allies.
(previously, in 3.x, the Monk could use Abundant Step EXACTLY as Dimension Door; if Jason gave him the possibility to use it as a Move Action, I think it's reasonable to allow a standard action even AFTER using it).
As for the mount, it acts on the Riders initiative (see mounted combat in the combat chapter). So it moves where you direct it using it's move action. You benefit by gaining a move action (to reload a xbow, or pull a potion, etc.), a +1 to hit smaller creatures than the mount, and a higher speed.
Ok, you are right. Mount was useless anyway, except when Paladin made his Smite Evil Spirited Charge.
Idk, I guess I would've dropped an area Dispel over a Stinking cloud to get rid of their obvious Acid resistance.
Caster level 7th(Dragon) vs. Caster Level 15th (Druid and Wizard)? Almost useless. Had to roll a 19-20 to Dispel an effect. The Dragon made some errors (especially the Stinking Cloud... he underestimated the party's Fortitude saves), but obviously characters that can cast a Call Lightning Storm and whose Energy Resistance soaks so much damage are at least 9th level...the Dragon understood his Caster Level was almost useless in this fight (excep for self-buffs and the Stinking Cloud who he hoped could hamper at least the Wizard).
@Wraith: The wording of Arcane Bond pretty clearly indicates it allows the WIZARD to cast a spell.
I see nothing to indicate the Bonded Item itself has any intelligence or "agency",
and in any case, there's definetely nothing referring to a "Swift Action".I agree the wording could be cleared up, because saying "cast like a normal Spell" doesn't clearly enough indicate it's the same Action as Casting a Spell, just that the OUTCOME is the same.
I'm more than happy that I was wrong, here. A good lesson for the future, thanks.
I *DO* think the fight could have gone quite differently if the Dragon had used different tactics. Re: Snatch/etc, if the Dragon had simply activated an Enlarge Self item, he could use such an ability against the PCs... Likewise, I would have actually had the Dragon attack/do something on the first round (taking advantage of the awesome Stealth), not just fly up. So, preparing with Mirror Image, Shield, any other Buffs (why would anyone NOT cast this before hand instead of mid-battle? dragons are not dumb!), an initial SLA to hamper the party/ immediately separate a weak caster type from the party would be very effective.
Sadly, Enlarge Self doesn't exist, only Enlarge Person (and a Dragon is not a 'person'...); the Dragon (as you can see) was already heavily buffed (Blur, Mirror Image, Shield, Mage Armor,Protection from Good). And the Dragon was partially submersed into a pool about 60ft from the party; in the suprise round, he could make only a Standard or a Move Action, and the bestcourse was to take flight. His Initiative then put him near the end of the 1st round...
I've just posted on the Monk Errata thread, asking for a better wording of Abundant Step in the future (to avoid possible misinterpretations, like we are currently having). I truly hope that the Monk CAN 'step-and-attack', but due to the fact that it seems that I'm the only person here that thinks that currently Abundant Step works in this way, it's possible that I'm wrong, and all of you are right (since I was wrong on Arcane Bond, for example).
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Please do not misconstrue our vigorous examination of the rules as anything personal Wraith. Or as a "I am right, you a wrong" kind of thing. I can only speak for myself, of course, but my comments are merely to point out areas that need clarification IMO, as per the purpose of the play test.
As I have stated before, in the end I'm not really that invested in the outcome of the monk's abundant step, whichever way the rules end up. I just want it cleared up, to avoid arguments at the game table.
I absolutely respect you and the effort you have put in with this report, your other play test reports and your other highly useful posts in other threads.
Maybe, it is my posting "style" as I seem to come off as much more adversarial than I ever intend (here and in other threads). So hard to read tone via the written word.
My own home game sessions have been a terrible mess lately, hence no real play test reports from myself. I have a new group of players that mixes long time players with first time ever players with players who used to play and now are giving it another go. To this add a switch to Pathfinder mid campaign. A typical game session right now might consist of a single encounter/combat.
All I'm saying is that I appreciate the effort you have put in and do not wish to offend you in any manner.
Cheers
PS I'm still not convinced on the mirror image. ;)
While dimension door itself does not require a roll, "grabbing" the dragon does.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Please do not misconstrue our vigorous examination of the rules as anything personal Wraith. Or as a "I am right, you a wrong" kind of thing. I can only speak for myself, of course, but my comments are merely to point out areas that need clarification IMO, as per the purpose of the play test.
QFT...
I'm happy to see the high level playtests done out and I only nitpick to make sure that everyone gains a better understanding of the RAW.
And yes you are correct about the wording Mirror Image from 3.5 to PF, but as far back as I can remember it was advised (in FAQs and Sage Advice columns) that you treat all the images as being in the casters space (yes Lord oKOyA even if that is multiple squares). Sure 9 images in a 5 foot square stretches versimillitude, but it's far easier to bend the suspension of disbelief than drop 9 minis on the board! (at least for those of us who use minis).
As for Dispel, I though the Dragon had CL 9. But that still would've been tough against the full CL of the party (I thought some of the resists came from potions for some wild reason).
To be honest I would've chosen to stay aquatic instead of flight, or at least stick and move from wet to air and back again. Better speed, improved cover, and you can breath water while they can't per se.
Sure 9 images in a 5 foot square stretches versimillitude
It's not that bad. People sometimes forget just how big a 5 foot square is. That's 25 square feet. People only take up maybe 2.5 to 3 square feet, and can be packed in tighter. Think of a subway train. I'm pretty sure people are packing in at least 9 to a 5' square on a crowded subway.
I know it's not RAW, but I'd problably rule that the line of acid a black dragon breathes falls to the ground due to the effect of gravity, so that the dragon doesn't have to line up in altitude to hit the three members on Round 5.
By the way, great playtest, Wraith!
Please do not misconstrue our vigorous examination of the rules as anything personal Wraith. Or as a "I am right, you a wrong" kind of thing. I can only speak for myself, of course, but my comments are merely to point out areas that need clarification IMO, as per the purpose of the play test.
Actually, I'm not taking it as a personal attack (it's true, sometimes written words cannot express your state of mind completely). Your comments are all constructive, and some things I thought (like the Arcane Bond) WERE wrong. I appreciate the comments from all of you.
And I still think that Abundant Step should work in that way ;)
After all, Dimension Door states that 'You always arrive at exactly the spot desired - whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction.' Well, the Monk said 'the back of the Old Dragon right there, in the middle of the flurry of Mirror Dragons' (do you have to roll the 20% miss concealment to land of the back of a Blurred Huge Dragon, too? I personally don't think so...)
(the only charismatic and effective move the Monk did SHOULD be legit ! Give love to the Monk! We can always talk about the standard action allowed or not, but at least landing safely should not be a restricted action)
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Ok, here is what I have so far.
We are in agreement that the monk's abundant step ability needs clarification.
We agree upon the wording of the spell dimension door as written.
We agree upon the wording of the spell mirror image as written.
We agree the monk's move was super cool!
Yes to the all the above, right?
However, we do not agree upon the interaction and application of all 3 rules in your playtest's specific example.
I have no contention with the fact that the mirror images reside within the caster's square(s). In fact the statements that there is plenty of room within the caster's square(s), actually reinforces my argument that the monk may in fact miss the "real" dragon, due to his difficulty locating the actual dragon for his safe "landing". The dragon, even a huge one such as this one, does not occupy his full 15'x15' area allotted to him.
Even if we remove the mirror image portion of the equation for the moment, according to RAW (PfRPG beta pg.144), the monk cannot move through the same square(s) as the dragon unless it is 3 size categories larger than the monk. The monk is medium and the dragon was only huge, a difference of only 2 categories. Even then the monk cannot occupy (end his turn) in the same squares as the dragon regardless of the size differential. The monk cannot enter, move through or end his movement in the dragons squares unless the dragon is helpless.
It follows then that the destination for the monk's abundant step could not legally, within the RAW, have been the dragon's back (which would be within it's squares). The monk instead would have to have chosen a square above or beside (or below for that matter) the dragon whilst it was in midair. The monk's next option would have been to attempt to grapple the dragon in an attempt to keep himself from falling. This would have required an attack roll (grapple IMO but you could rule a touch attack at the very least) which may have triggered an AoO.
As a side note, it appears that grappling an opponent in PfRPG does not require (or allow) you to move into the square(s) of your grappled opponent. You merely occupy adjacent squares with each other.
Without the mirror images the monk could have abundant stepped beside the dragon, grabbed onto the dragon (grapple) and subsequently made his unarmed attack. Note: you can also see from the number of actions required why additional problems could come from abundant step not being clearly defined. Even given your interpretation of abundant step, the monk does not have enough actions to step, grab and attack int he same round.
The implications of mirror image become obvious.
With the mirror image you have to add the chance for missing due to targeting the images for both the initial grapple and the subsequent attack. Although one could argue that once the grapple is achieved the miss chance due to the images is removed, since you now know exactly where (or which) your actual target is.
That's how I see it anyhow.
Cheers
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OK, i see a mushroom cloud over this thread. Abundant step is the only thing that is at question at this point. And the mirror image is simple to resolve if you so choose. Have the player roll a d10 to see if he landed on the right dragon. I do not think this particular situation was thought of in the writing of thses dpells, and i do not think it really has to be covered in the book. If we did, there would be many similar things that would have to be clarified.
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OK, i see a mushroom cloud over this thread. Abundant step is the only thing that is at question at this point. And the mirror image is simple to resolve if you so choose. Have the player roll a d10 to see if he landed on the right dragon. I do not think this particular situation was thought of in the writing of thses dpells, and i do not think it really has to be covered in the book. If we did, there would be many similar things that would have to be clarified.
You are definitely right about one thing. The rules alone cannot cover everything. Following just the RAW can lead to some pretty goofy situations. Take the rules restricting movement through occupied squares.
It is pretty obvious that if the monk was fighting the old black dragon in a hallway 15' wide, according to the RAW, he could not move through the dragon's squares to the hallway beyond (without tumbling, abundant step, etc). I'm talking just plain old move.
Now what happens if we turn this hallway vertical. Let's say that the old black dragon is hovering half way down a shaft 15'x15' by 100' deep. If the monk was at the top of the shaft and jumped down, according to the RAW, he would not be "allowed" to pass through the dragon's squares. Does that mean he automatically "lands" on the dragon since he is not allowed to continue falling? Not really, but it does expose the limitations of just using the RAW. This is where the DM needs to exercise his judgment. I would rule that the monk could fall past if that is what he wanted and the dragon did not want to prevent that from happening. OR if the monk wanted to land on the dragon, then he would have to make an attack as normal to attempt to grab onto the dragon, unless of course the dragon did not oppose the monk landing upon him.
In Wraith's example above, as a DM, I would have totally allowed the monk to attempt the abundant step onto the dragon's back (it was a totally slick move after all! you have to reward that kind of stuff.) the rules be damned, with a decent chance of success, except for the presence of the mirror images.
Allowing this maneuver to bypass mirror image would have set a precedence that I would have been uncomfortable with in my game. If this was allowed, what would stop the monk from using the same tactic against invisible targets for instance? Once the location of an invisible target is known, invisibility still grants a 50% miss chance. Mirror image is statistically better at this point, with any number of images greater than 1 plus the "real" caster. An invisible dragon could easily be "found", bypassing invisibility, by the use of this tactic. I'm sure some crafty players could come up with other nefarious uses for this type of tactic as well. This is why I would have asked for an attack roll versus the images to determine if the monk had indeed found the real dragon on which to "land".
You want to know the funniest/sickest part? If the monk had closed his eyes as he stepped, he could have avoided the miss chance due to the mirror images and just made his grab attempt as normal, with just the penalties to hit from being "blind". I haven't done the math but his chances probably would have improved. A blind touch attack into the dragon's squares, maybe coupled with a successful climb check a la Primemovers spoiler above to hang on? I could live with that as DM. I don't know if the monk would have... ;)
Cheers
As a side note, the Dragon had only 3 images, not 9 (the Wizard had 9 images); however, he had Blur active.
So, following the rules RAW as Lord oKOyA wrote above, the Monk had 50% to grab the real Dragon closing his eyes, or 20% to grab the real Dragon with his eyes open (25% to pick the right image, then 80% to bypass Blur).
Just to add more infos...
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As a side note, the Dragon had only 3 images, not 9 (the Wizard had 9 images); however, he had Blur active.
So, following the rules RAW as Lord oKOyA wrote above, the Monk had 50% to grab the real Dragon closing his eyes, or 20% to grab the real Dragon with his eyes open (25% to pick the right image, then 80% to bypass Blur).
Just to add more infos...
I did realize there were only 3 images. I did forget about the blur though. It was more of a look at the rules interaction kind of thing for me than the actual numbers anyways. This forum has been very useful for me to discuss rules with other GMs and to see how other games are run. Lot's of good ideas to be had for sure.
Like I said, cool move on the part of your player Wraith and very interesting discussion everyone.
Thanks again Wraith for the play test report.
Cheers