You just keep pulling me in...
The discussion is about metamagic rods and whether or not they are unbalanced, if the reason the rods are unbalanced is because they provide free metamagic then discussing a fix for all free metamagic is germain to the conversation. Still I'm tired of arguing so no matter what is said I'm really going to stop posting so please don't respond to this.
But rods are not free. They have a cost.
But rods are not free. They have a cost.You just keep pulling me in...
The discussion is about metamagic rods and whether or not they are unbalanced, if the reason the rods are unbalanced is because they provide free metamagic then discussing a fix for all free metamagic is germain to the conversation. Still I'm tired of arguing so no matter what is said I'm really going to stop posting so please don't respond to this.
lastknightleft, I agree that the Universal wizard's "Metamagic Mastery" ability is unbalanced; you're not sacrificing anything to get it. But I maintain that there is some price at which a Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken (say) is balanced -- whether that price is 17,000 gp, or 170,000 gp, or 170,000,000,000 gp, I don't know. But there'll some price point at which the supply and demand curves intersect.
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Running the STAP from level 10 to the low epics currently I have dropped a number of Metamagic rods and found my players rarely used them. The Cleric used his Divine Metamagic maximize far more often than any rod (which might be too powerful) because he had something like 15 turn attemps. Neither the other Cleric nor the Sorcerer used them with any frequency. Though a Twin Metamagic rod has been sought out recently...
However in a past campaign at levels 12 to 18 (running Maure Castle) rods of quicken, empower, and maximise were used fairly often though they didn't seem too powerful.
IMX the rods when used are nice additions to a caster firepower but they ARE fairly cost prohibitive and even with a crafter (which my Maure campaign had) the requirements for downtime to craft can also a deterent.
So while I'm not completely agree with Almagast he does make a point that in an organically grown campaign the cost is a deterent to snatching up Metamagic rods. Downtime to craft said items however is totally dependant on the campaign. In AP's time constraints can be a considerable roadblock. In sandbox style campaigns where the PC's drive the action for the most part, time isn't as much a problem.
In all cases the DM is the final arbiter of availability of items and the pace of the campaign. With Jason lowering the magic level of the game as a whole and hopefully providing some firmer guidlines on how to run the buying and selling of magic should be done we can recalibrate our perception of what is too powerful and what's not.
--Vrocknrolla!
lastknightleft, I agree that the Universal wizard's "Metamagic Mastery" ability is unbalanced; you're not sacrificing anything to get it. But I maintain that there is some price at which a Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken (say) is balanced -- whether that price is 17,000 gp, or 170,000 gp, or 170,000,000,000 gp, I don't know. But there'll some price point at which the supply and demand curves intersect.
I do not believe that is the case. It's not a question of whether or not someone is willing to pay for it so much as whether or not the whole thing should be feasible within the structure of the game rules. The question of supply and demand or even balancing money against a particular power doesn't really factor into whether or not the power is appropriate. The money balance only factors into how the power, assuming it's considered kosher, matches up with other items an adventurer with scarce resources may want - or how it matches up with a DM's hoard-generating budget.
lastknightleft, I agree that the Universal wizard's "Metamagic Mastery" ability is unbalanced; you're not sacrificing anything to get it. But I maintain that there is some price at which a Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken (say) is balanced -- whether that price is 17,000 gp, or 170,000 gp, or 170,000,000,000 gp, I don't know. But there'll some price point at which the supply and demand curves intersect.
See, with metamagic rules as they stand right now, I don't know if that is true. In order to determine if that is true, you have to create an array of every single standard action spell effect from 6th to 9th level, determine if having the ability to cast it within the same round as any other single standard action effect from 6th to 9th level is mechanically okay. I can point to a handful of edge cases where I consider this to be *not* okay, but haven't even begun to scrape the whole array.
My kneejerk reaction is to say never allow quickening of 6th level standard action spell effects or higher, which is something that, in general, the metamagic rules provide. The edge scenario provided by metamagic rods also affects other situations where the metamagic limit of "9th-ish" level effects can be bypassed. Quickened mass hold person, quickened forcecage, and quickened greater shadow conjuration all combo with other spells of similar or higher level to deliver a one-round kill. Granted, these are not the only way that a high level arcanist has to kill someone in one round, but that is a minor distinction, when the arcanist can set up such a double combo as soon as they can cast the spell and afford or find the rod.
Therefore, since this edge case may be a problem, I suggest that something be done to address this. Even with the limit of 3 x per day, I would be inclined to eliminate the greater quicken rod altogether. I would also seriously consider eliminating the greater maximize rod, but would need to analyze the maximizable spell array from 7th-9th level to be sure.
Paizo never claimed this to be a goal, and they've already released a beta that doesn't address your concerns. It's not going to change. 3.5 games are not balanced -- any class can be fun, but it's up to the DM to create challenges that highlight the strengths of all characters, not just toss monsters in a room and let casters utterly destroy them.
If Paizo doesn't address the situation of balance between casters and non-casters, then I will find something else to play once this Beta has concluded. It won't be 4th Edition, but it will be something else. As it stands right now, 3.X is pretty much a "throw monsters room and let casters destroy them kind of game". There's no way I'd play anything but a spellcaster in this game. If that's going to be how Pathfinder ends up being, then so be it. But I'm not going to sit by and let that happen without making my voice heard.
You don't need to cast Gate every day. You just need to be able to cast it whenever you need to utterly, ruthlessly, and completely crush any threat that your DM might send against you. It's like having an "I WIN" button hidden in your pocket that you can press every time you come across something that you can't deal with that deducts 5,000 GP from your credit card account.And other 9th level spells aren't an "I WIN" button? Other spells in general aren't an "I WIN" button? Also, you're not abusing gate at all. It's a trump card in this scenario, one that has nothing to do with metamagic rods. How does this make it, or rods, broken?
Didn't you just say a few posts back that Meteor Swarm was a terrible spell? If you believe it's a terrible spell, then why are you claiming it to be an "I WIN" button now? Make up your mind! :lol:
And as far as XP losses go - they are negligible. Frank Trollman wrote a great article talking about how "XP losses" to spells and magic item creation aren't really losses at all. The way the XP system worked in 3.X, you would be able to easily make back the XP you lost to your crafting and spellcasting and simultaneously close the gap between yourself and your fellow players so long as you remained with a level or so of the rest of your party at all times. Frankly, the GP cost is more substantial - but even then, given how much cash you'll be throwing around at higher levels (especially now with cut-rate cost magic items), it's not really very substantial at all.This may be true, I haven't read Frank Trollman's article. I do know, however, that losing caster levels is in general a bad idea, and no magic item is worth spellcasting ability. I also know that you can just planar bind something and make it create items for you, or take leadership and have a cohort do it for you. Those are both better options than taking IC feats yourself.
You don't eat up enough XP to lose a level - you carefully tear off chunks, bit by bit - never enough to reduce your caster level, but enough to impact your actual XP total. If you actively adventure, you can very easily make back the loss, plus some. At the end of the day, an XP cost isn't a real cost at all.
Sueki Suezo wrote:
Are you serious? Now you're just quibbling over semantics at this point. :lol:
First, please learn what "semantics" means. Second, I clearly stated the same thing I had all along -- you're making invalid assumptions. You tried to turn that into me assuming something was NEVER a valid option. There's a huge difference there, and it's one you're going to be called on by anyone you do it to.
I think you pretty clearly reacted to my suggestion that one could craft a Greater Metamagic Rod with a great deal of disbelief. You may not have used the word "impossible", but it was very well implied by your tone, as if a full grown baby began to sprout from the top of my head. :lol:
And summoning Solars is still better then all of these spells.Why should I (or Paizo, or anyone else) believe you on this when you provide no evidence, just opinion, and you didn't even know the spell had a costly material component, or that it's actually a calling spell, not a summon?
1) It's irrevelant whether or not the spell is a Calling or a Summoning Effect - you still end up with the same effect - summoning a Solar.
2) 5,000 GP doesn't matter very much whenever you're swimming in cash by the end of the game. And even if you are stingy, all you have to do is just keep your "I WIN" button in reserve for when you really need to dismantle an encounter.
3) You end up summoning a Solar, for god's sake.
I think that there are many, many people in this thread have made some very solid and rational arguments regarding why Metamagic Rods need to be eliminated. I haven't heard anything so far from you that would lead me to believe that I am incorrect on this matter.Like what? I haven't found any arguments that show Paizo needs to eliminate metamagic rods, only that some people don't like metamagic rods, and need to make a houserule.
Have you bothered reading the other posts in the thread? :lol:
See, with metamagic rules as they stand right now, I don't know if that is true. In order to determine if that is true, you have to create an array of every single standard action spell effect from 6th to 9th level, determine if having the ability to cast it within the same round as any other single standard action effect from 6th to 9th level is mechanically okay. I can point to a handful of edge cases where I consider this to be *not* okay, but haven't even begun to scrape the whole array.
lastknightleft, I agree that the Universal wizard's "Metamagic Mastery" ability is unbalanced; you're not sacrificing anything to get it. But I maintain that there is some price at which a Metamagic Rod of Greater Quicken (say) is balanced -- whether that price is 17,000 gp, or 170,000 gp, or 170,000,000,000 gp, I don't know. But there'll some price point at which the supply and demand curves intersect.
I don't know. In a 50th level campaign, a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken would probably get a shrug from a spellcaster (since epic spellcasters have access to the feat Automatic Quicken Spell which makes it obsolete). So somewhere between level 1 and level 50 it should be appropriate.
Sueki Suezo wrote:
Translation: I've seen a lot of good arguments about why Metamagic Rods should be eliminated, but I still want to use these broken magical items (preferably with my broken spells), so I'm going to ignore these arguments.
No, I've seen lots of interesting opinions on why metamagic rods could be houseruled. Now, if you're going to continue to make stuff up and pretend you can base a coherent argument around it, there's no point in continuing this discussion. Face it: you don't like metamagic rods, gate, or 3.5e in general, and you should really houserule them, or play something else. Don't assume everyone else wants the same things you do.
*rolls eyes*
Well, given the fact that you really haven't done anything but:
1) Blown off the awesome, overpowered ability to summon a Solar (excuse me, CALL a Solar) to smite your enemies down like a bunch of punks.
2) Stated that a 5,000 GP expenditure is a significant expenditure of a character's monetary resources and is capable of balancing the power of the Gate spells, when in actuality in higher level games, 5K is chump change.
3) Shown an inability to make up your mind as to whether or not you think Meteor Swarm is powerful or not - or to be able to balance the effect of a Gate spell in relation to other 9th level spells.
4) Ignored the fact that obtaining Greater Metamagic Rods is well within reach of higher level characters given the average wealth per level and the fact that most other magical treasure in the game is 50% cheaper then it was in 3.X.
5) Shown your love of spells that, when taken out of the campaigns that they were meant to be used in, become overpowered whenever implemented in a normal game.
6) Spent more time nitpicking about grammar and whether or not things were stated directly or if they were merely implied...
I sure as hell don't see very much coming from your end to convince me that your position is the "correct one" and that Metamagic Rods are swanky cool and shouldn't be disbarred from the next edition. And I haven't seen any "coherent argument" from you that amounts to much more then "all stuff is powerful and we shouldn't try to compare them, balance them, or bother to set limits on them".
But I DO see a lot of good arguments in this thread that show how overpowered they really are, and for those that are actually concerned about game balance instead of using Spectral Hand to smite monsters down with broken spells from a broken book, those arguments hold a lot of weight.
About this thread. Three things strike me.
A) this thread seems to be changing. It's start to ge more into casters are to powerful.
Which they are.
B) a lot of the examples in this therade are meta gameing.
- "Maximized meteor swarm followed immediately in the same turn a quickened meteor swarm" (does sound like a fighter player trying to play a wizard). At higher levels there are for more brutal spells and options.
- one wizard vs. one dragon. Meta gameing? Yes.
Meta gaming? If we're defining meta gaming as using the best options available to you to end an encounter, then yes, it's meta gaming. But it's nothing more or less then what every player does in every encounter. It's just that the Wizard has more options and more powerful options then many other people in the game, and giving them Metamagic Rods just exacerbates this effect.
C) A lot of the examples in this thread involves high level spells and high level game (maximized meteor swarm followed immediately in the same turn a quickened meteor swarm etc.) A level 7 party have other problems than a level 20 party. Are we adressing high level problems or the rods?
The problems are intricately intertwined. High-level spellcasting is what makes the game fall apart at higher levels, and giving them more toys to accelerate the effect doesn't help out very much at all.
Jason and Paizo are probably well aware of the problems with high level games and high level spells (they can read and they are not stupid). Wouldn't it be better to focus on the rod? You can turn this thread into fighter vs. wizard. Does anyone seriously believe Jason will bother, or are people just posting to pick a fight and blow of steam?
I would like to think that he will bother, but only time will tell. If they don't do anything to resolve the issue, then I suspect that Pathfinder will become a "spellcaster sausage party" and the remaining players will either migrate to 4th Edition or to other games altogether.
So let's return to the topic of this thread. Metamagic Rods.
At lower levels there are far worse things than maximized or quickened rods.
Silent metamagic Rod. The party comes up agains the BBEG and battle begins. BBEG cast spells and after some rounds you cast silence and the group is ready to RUN AWAY. BBEG picks his Silent metamagic Rod and continue to blast the party or hold the someone or whatever.
So metamagic rods can be a problem at lower levels to.
Why would anyone pick the silent spell feat? Just get a rod.
Bingo. Even at lower levels, Metamagic Rods can be leveraged in such a way that they are incredibly powerful. And once the party kills that caster, they too can wield the same power. Or they can craft a similar - maybe even better - item once they reach a high enough level.
But rods are not free. They have a cost.You just keep pulling me in...
The discussion is about metamagic rods and whether or not they are unbalanced, if the reason the rods are unbalanced is because they provide free metamagic then discussing a fix for all free metamagic is germain to the conversation. Still I'm tired of arguing so no matter what is said I'm really going to stop posting so please don't respond to this.
But the cost is not high enough - indeed no cost is high enough - to balance their effects in the game.
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Bingo. Even at lower levels, Metamagic Rods can be leveraged in such a way that they are incredibly powerful. And once the party kills that caster, they too can wield the same power. Or they can craft a similar - maybe even better - item once they reach a high enough level.
So let's return to the topic of this thread. Metamagic Rods.
At lower levels there are far worse things than maximized or quickened rods.
Silent metamagic Rod. The party comes up agains the BBEG and battle begins. BBEG cast spells and after some rounds you cast silence and the group is ready to RUN AWAY. BBEG picks his Silent metamagic Rod and continue to blast the party or hold the someone or whatever.
So metamagic rods can be a problem at lower levels to.
Why would anyone pick the silent spell feat? Just get a rod.
Wait a sec, having one caster (of the assumed two) be able to function in a Silence spell isn't exactly overpowered. It's a fairly common tactic and if you spend the resources to gain a silent spell rod then it's not so bad a day for you. It's not like low to mid level casters are going to have a golfbag full of various rods.
I mean at 12th level your WBL is 88K. Having a rod of Extend, Enlarge, or Silent is 11K. Not too bad, 1/8 your cash. But if you want a Maximize, Quicken, or an Empower that rod is anywhere from 32.5K to 75.5K! A Quicken is almost your whole WBL! To craft those you're still going to need from 1 month to 2.5 months even if you're not paying the full price!
So please explain how 32.5K, 55K, or 75.5K is not high enough a cost for a 12th level character. It's anywhere from 1/3 to nearly all his wealth.
I don't know. In a 50th level campaign, a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quicken would probably get a shrug from a spellcaster (since epic spellcasters have access to the feat Automatic Quicken Spell which makes it obsolete). So somewhere between level 1 and level 50 it should be appropriate.
Sure, that's epic. In my opinion, the +3 or more metamagic effects should not exist in greater rod format pre-epic, since pre-epic characters should not be able to cast 12th-13th spell level effects. I am more than fine with pre-epic characters maybe unlocking 10th or 11th spell level effects.
Wait a sec, having one caster (of the assumed two) be able to function in a Silence spell isn't exactly overpowered. It's a fairly common tactic and if you spend the resources to gain a silent spell rod then it's not so bad a day for you. It's not like low to mid level casters are going to have a golfbag full of various rods.
I mean at 12th level your WBL is 88K. Having a rod of Extend, Enlarge, or Silent is 11K. Not too bad, 1/8 your cash. But if you want a Maximize, Quicken, or an Empower that rod is anywhere from 32.5K to 75.5K! A Quicken is almost your whole WBL! To craft those you're still going to need from 1 month to 2.5 months even if you're not paying the full price!
So please explain how 32.5K, 55K, or 75.5K is not high enough a cost for a 12th level character. It's anywhere from 1/3 to nearly all his wealth.
I wouldn't bother asking those questions. I've asked similar ones throughout this thread, and the answers have been "gate is broken (irrelevant)", "most campaigns allow multiple months of downtime (sure they do)", "rods are way too cheap (which you address and debunk)," "you can easily afford them because you can just save all your money (because spending 25%+ of your wealth on one item that works three times per day on specific and not always common actions is such a great idea) ," and just general giant passages of self-indulgent word spew which I honestly didn't even bother reading. The topic creator is confusing his opinions and desires to ban everything to attempt some semblance of "balance" (which is always the best way to do things, btw.) with proven fact, and thinks everyone should do something because he says so. I don't understand why he doesn't just houserule them to work the way he wants, or go play 4e or Experimental Might or something, but whatever. We'll see if Paizo agrees.
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I wouldn't bother asking those questions. I've asked similar ones throughout this thread, and the answers have been "gate is broken (irrelevant)", "most campaigns allow multiple months of downtime (sure they do)", "rods are way too cheap (which you address and debunk)," "you can easily afford them because you can just save all your money (because spending 25%+ of your wealth on one item that works three times per day on specific and not always common actions is such a great idea) ,"
Well those aren't really answers to the question at hand. Whether Gate is too powerful for a 9th level spell vs some other 9th level effect is a seperate thread. Let's look at ALL levels of play and be specific about what is overpowered and why. We might find some problems or many, but at the very least spell it out so others can follow the arguement. I find that there's been a lot of hand waving of specific examples and assumptions that don't seem to jive with what I've seen arise in actual play.
As I stated before, with organically grown characters you don't necessarily have the option to hoard all your cash and survive, especially spellcasters! So let's bring the tone back down to a more civil dispassionate objectivism. Explain it so a moderately experienced player can follow the argument.
How are lesser metamagic rods broken before 7th level? Are they broken beyond that?
How are standard metamagic rods broken before 15th level? Are they broken beyond that?
Greater Rods I can see having some issues, but that might just be due to the spells at that level (Gate, Time Stop, etc.)
I have to say, as a gamer and a dm, to lastknight: sorry for your experiences in being powergamed down. I as a DM, and a player ,try to keep those things from happening because it sucks to have it happen to you. However, I really think that your DM was letting that player get away with far more than he should of at that level, if you were really that level.
Unfortunately, the DMG does not come with hat of common sense or a spine for those without one. Pathfinder will not come with these either. If someone used a rod a quickening at the level you suggested, to cast spells of the level you suggested, he is cheating or your DM is having an oprahs great giveaway monty haul session and your gaming experience is suffering for it.
As for all else: The DMG specifically says gaming experience and balance is tied hand in hand to character wealth. It further states that balanced game sessions require characters to spend resources throughout their adventure. If your wizard is scratching every dime to by an item that will let him ravage something three times a day in 17 levels you are not reminding him enough of the wonderful thing that AC is or how beautiful a cloak of resistance is for his pitiful reflex and fortitude save. IE if your wizard wants rod of bend over the pit fiend before he wants a Robe of the Archmagi your DM is serving him on a silver platter.
What, you want your feet rubbed while I run the game?
Sure Mr. Wizard, I shall roll the dice with my teeth while I rub your feet with such tender devotion befitting one of your almighty holiness!
HAH! How about an excerpt from my game table as a DM:
CRAP! !*@0! I knew I should have upped my AC! I knew it!! Wait, why are the fighters moving away! I NEED them HERE beside me!! Please lets stop after this encounter!! Oh, thats right we need to keep going. Got to save the kingdom and all. Why couldnt I have been a Rakshasa??!!
17th level is the first level you can create even a FIRST level metamagic rod. PERIOD.
Challenge Ratings are presented with the concept that you are requiring for their very survival the expenditure of their resources throughout their career as adventurers.
If you allow them to ONE-SHOT your Big Boss with all their resources, then yes, your wizard friend( who seems to be played by a player who doesnt give a crap about the other players) will blast unto oblivion all you lay before him. And after that ,in your divinely supreme and most gratuitous benevolence, you allow them to sleep and regain it all for the next day, they will express their heartfelt gratitude by doing it again. and again. and again.
Friends dont let friends monty haul!! Just say No! Ruff McGruff says:(rough masculine cartoonish voice)Take a bite out powergamers with Super Red Dragons and Ryu, the 25th level Japanese monk. HADOOKEN!!!
(ok that was a bit too much, sorry guys) :)
I honestly feel that the lesser rods and standard rods may be priced low, especially on the +2-+4 metamagic effects, but I don't think it is a hard problem to fix. Slapping an extend to allow your hours/level spells to run all day at lower levels *can* be problematic, as it means that a tactical element (when should I cast my hours/level buff so that I have it when I need it) is eliminated (I can cast it when the day starts, and not have to worry about it). This tactical element is certainly worth a cost, even moreso when it comes along with the ability to double rounds/level and minutes/level spells. It's not a pearl of power, since it doesn't give more spell slots. It only gives spellslot discounting 3x a day, which is wonky to price.
At no point should the price point be reasonable enough for a caster to drop 30% of WBL to give themselves multiple extra effective caster levels 3x per day.
At existing price, the Metamagic Rod of Quicken allows a 15th level character, for roughly 30% of WBL, to Quicken her second highest level spells 3x a day. At any level, Quickening a character's second highest level of spells, at an affordable cost, is too good. I will likewise argue that maximizing the second highest level of spells is also too good. Make them affordable by 17th level, and I might be okay, but I don't like it now.
This would price most rods outside of consideration before 7th level, and would make them a serious chunk of change even at that level, at 30% or so of WBL for the lowliest lesser rod. The game is skewed heavily toward arcanists by 17th level regardless, so the fact that it takes 40% of a 17th level PCs wealth to allow the character to Quicken 7th-9th level spells is moot, if in fact 7th-9th level spells should never be quickened pre epic.
Treelynx, I understand your frustration at the higher level rods. Maximize and Quicken are two of the most critized metamagic feats. They are indeed powerful and I agree that adding them in a way to go beyond 9th level should be addressed.
However, I am not totally convinced that the kind addressing should be done officially. I have had the unfortunate experience of seeing serious powergaming that went well beyond any level that can be expressed in the many languages of mankind. I think many people have had that experience. I would dare say all, in fact.
The ways to reach that level are many. And they are to be found in all classes. Prestige classes and splat books can "quicken and maximize" powergaming (sorry couldnt resist :D) at levels far lower than core can and allowing outside campaign worlds, ie FR and Eberron, to combine can obliterate all sense of the term balanced gaming.
I rarely, if ever, recommend nerfing. And I never recommend it to fix powergaming.
Most of the time I see the lesser rods of silent, still, and extend really helping the party out. If the party is competing against each other to Kick butt or maximize "ownage"(anyone who uses this word should be beaten with a dead cat stuffed full of concrete ;))than the item will weaponised against the party, and not the encounter, as the encounter is no longer the monster but beating the rest of the party.
This is how I have seen it played at my table:
For Example, I have used the still rod to allow my wizard to drag a party member to safety while casting sleet storm to slow the enemy. I then the next round used it to cast haste on the party while now carrying the party member along with a slowed and barely conscious gnome making strength checks just to hold onto my back. This was followed with a shrink spell the next round to turn a small bridge into a trinket, cutting off the enemy from chasing us after my hasted party crossed the bridge. All three made possible while rescueing the party and leaving none behind.
One can quickly make a terrible use of the Qui and Max rods yes but they will be used up very quickly and at great cost. I, myself, never use the quicken or maximize rods. They arent worth it too me, not at the present cost. However I can see it being used in a way to outshine the party.
I am truly sorry if the poeple you play D&D with are like that. I mean that.
Wow, that's a long thread,
I don't really care if PF has metamagic rods or not. I like them and can house rule them back into my game so dang fast your head will spin :P.
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WHOA!! I just realized after reading the post by Maugan22 that I was not only writing novels, I was making a triology none the less!!
My apologies for that. I will pay more attention to the length of my posts from now on.
Hmmmmm Maybe that brass dragon claiming blood relation wasnt lying after all........
Most of the time I see the lesser rods of silent, still, and extend really helping the party out. If the party is competing against each other to Kick butt or maximize "ownage"(anyone who uses this word should be beaten with a dead cat stuffed full of concrete ;))than the item will weaponised against the party, and not the encounter, as the encounter is no longer the monster but beating the rest of the party.
I am definitely with you on this one. The lower-powered metamagic rods are quite useful without being overpowering. I would not want to see them all go just because the more powerful ones are too good on high level spells.
Summerizing things told I would like to be in the rules:
- Free metamagic in general shouldn't raise the level of a spell over the spell level capacity of the user (or capacity +1)
- Those rods can only be used by casters who have the corresponding feat
- With these changes the rods can be easily prized down to a half or even third.
On a tangent:
- Summon x spells should be able to cast monsters with CR equal to casterlevel when the spell is available -4 (in case of Summon Monster 8 it would be a CR 11 Monster) when Gate should be able to do the same, just faster with more monsters called (say 1 to 3).
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If the party is competing against each other to Kick butt or maximize "ownage"(anyone who uses this word should be beaten with a dead cat stuffed full of concrete ;))
Strange that you would use the word then request that anyone who uses it be beaten with a dead cat stuffed full of concrete, but hey, that's your choice.
*beats Same_random_hero with a dead cat stuffed full of concrete.*