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One of the problems that crops up in high-level play is the growing size of the gap between a character's best saving throw and the character's worst saving throw. In the 'sweet spot' that exists from about level 5 to about level 10, the size of this gap is approximately 2-3 points, but above level 15 or so it grows to a whopping 5-6 points. This means that an encounter that is a reasonable challenge for one member of a high-level party is likely to be deadly to those that have a poor saving throw against its attack. It is also one of the reasons that the challenge rating system breaks down badly at high levels. And it ensures that high-level characters have a glass jaw - any attack that targets their weak spot (their poor save) ensures that they go down. When this is combined with the growing proliferation of save or die effects, problems ensue. Most characters respond to this issue by loading upon items that boost saving throws - which exacerbates the christmas tree effect.
So what it the solution? Short of modifying the saving throw progression (which would seriously break backward compatibility), I suggest that those feats which improve a character's saving throws could do with a bit of a boost. I'm thinking of Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes. I would suggest tweaking them to read something like this:
Great Fortitude
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels of experience that you possess.
This would ensure that characters can compensate for their weak saving throw without resorting to magic items - but only at the cost of a feat. It would also have a smaller impact on backward compatibility than most of the alternatives.
So what do folks think?
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The feats themselves are not bad...but most of my characters never take them because there are things out there that I need to get to meet prestige Class requirements or even other feats.
That's been my experience too. Characters avoid these feats like the plague because they are 'sub-optimal' and they are rarely prerequisites for interesting prestige classes.
I would also like the idea of improved versions of these feats allowing perhaps a reroll or 2d20 "keep the best one".
I'm not sure about this idea - the problem is that it cheapens the advantage of having a good progression in a particular saving throw category. Personally, I like a smaller static bonus...
Another other option might be to give all characters a discretionary point every few levels that they can add to a base saving throw of their choice. One option might be to give a point each time the character receives an attribute increase - i.e. one point every four levels. This wouldn't make much difference at low levels, but might ease some of the statistical anomalies that occur at high levels.
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That's been my experience too. Characters avoid these feats like the plague because they are 'sub-optimal' and they are rarely prerequisites for interesting prestige classes.
Don't you think it just a little contradictory that players consider feats that boost saving throws "sub-optimal" and then suffer tremendously from poor saves later on? Obviously they aren't exactly sub-optimal. Even a flat 10% boost has some significance.
Part of the reason that these feats are passed over has to do with human nature. We live in a "offense is cool, defense is boring" kind of world. Players want nice flashy feats that do exciting things rather than dull and boring feats that are largely passive. Players are like little kids, we want to run fast, jump high and do cool things with our feats. We do not want to be told to be careful and shore up our defenses.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers
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Another other option might be to give all characters a discretionary point every few levels that they can add to a base saving throw of their choice. One option might be to give a point each time the character receives an attribute increase - i.e. one point every four levels. This wouldn't make much difference at low levels, but might ease some of the statistical anomalies that occur at high levels.
I made a suggestion in another thread but abandoned the idea. I have been thinking about it again recently and I think that it might interest you.
My idea was similar to the one you propose but involves allowing characters to distribute all allotted saving throw points as they see fit for their character (without the addition of extra points you propose).
Instead of classes having pre-determined save progressions, players would be allowed to assign the save points as they see fit at each level. For example, fighters have +2/0/0 at first level. Why not let the player decide what arraignment they want. You could move the +2 to will if you wish 0/0/+2, or split the points and have +1/0/+1 or any other variation. At second level you would add you +1 to whichever save you wished, so on and so forth for each level. You don't change the amount gained at each level by class, just the distribution.
This system is completely backwards compatible as fighters of old would just be considered to have the "default" selection. Converting them if one wanted to, would be a fairly simple task. You would figure out what portion of each save was from the stat modifier, and that would remain, while the rest of the "points" could be moved into any new configuration you desired.
This system also plays into the character generation concept. Why must all fighter be weak willed (ie poor will saves)? Couldn't you have a strong athletic fighter who is injury/illness prone (ie poor fort save) and who is fiercely strong minded (ie good will save)? Keep in mind you would still be adding your Con, Dex and Wis modifiers to your save scores, so you would still be able to offset some "losses" by stat arrangement. This would allow for significantly more variety in character creation process.
An added benefit of this system is the reduction in meta-gaming, resulting from the fact one could no longer assume that the best target for your will save spells are always the fighters. All fighters are not created equal. Stats are distributed differently. Different feats and skills are chosen. Why shouldn't saves also vary from fighter to fighter?
Multi-classing and prestige classes are likewise handled in the same way.
Of course this doesn't directly address the gap issue you raise, since there are still the same number of points, but it would allow players to even out the differences if they desired.
Have I missed anything? What do you think?
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One other thing I have been thinking about lately in regards to saving throws is something that may address your extra points desire.
Characters have 6 base stats. 3 of which influence saves. As it stands some classes benefit from good save scores bolstered by high modifiers from the corresponding stat which also happens to be their prime class stat (ie clerics have good base will save scores plus high wisdom score modifiers equaling tremendous final will saves). What about the "poor" stats of Str, Int and Cha? Would not a high Str mean that one could withstand more physical adversity? Or a high Int mean that they might be able to think quickly about how to avoid danger? Or a high Cha might represent a persons strong sense of identity and individuality?
My proposal is simple. Make the three saves a combination of base score plus modifiers from 2 base stats.
Fort saves are modified by Str and Con
Will saves are modified by Wis and Cha
Refl saves are modified by Dex and Int
This would also be backwards compatible with a very minor adjustment needed, as you would only need to add in the missing stat modifier to each save.
And there you have it. A slight bump in saves without the need for devising a whole new system. You could even couple it up with my suggestion above.
What do you think?
The main problem of ST at high level is that there is too much difference between strong and weak saves : 2 + 1/2 levels and + 1/3 levels lead to a greater gap as levels go by.
Multiclassing make things worse as you gain new bonus in your strong saves and the progression of your weak saves is slowed.
A good way to avoid this problem could be to give the same progression to all saves : + 1 / 2 levels. Using the rules for fractionary saves and BAB from Unearthed Arcana would be great as it would avoid the penalty of multiclassing at odd level.
A good save gain a +2 bonus (non cumulative via multiclassing).
This way, good and weak saves have less difference and challenging the strong save of some players won't result in an auto-miss for other players.
One of the problems that crops up in high-level play is the growing size of the gap between a character's best saving throw and the character's worst saving throw.
I cover this issue in great depth, as well as present several solutions, here.
In short, you're right, but more power-creep at an inherently busted system really isn't the way to solve it.
-Matt
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One of the problems that crops up in high-level play is the growing size of the gap between a character's best saving throw and the character's worst saving throw.I cover this issue in great depth, as well as present several solutions, here.
In short, you're right, but more power-creep at an inherently busted system really isn't the way to solve it.
-Matt
Wow. That thread is a dense read. Very interesting stuff going on in there! (I am particularly intrigued by the trade +X for additional die rolls as well as the increased casting time/actions for spells portions of the discusion.) I will be sure to keep tabs on the thread from now on.
I see Krome made a similar proposal to my first suggestion a little over a month ago. Ah well.
And yes power creep isn't necessarily a good solution to the problem, but I still like the flavor of all 6 stats being involved in the save calculation. If you don't want the power creep then allow the use of either this stat or that stat in the calculation and you avoid the power creep while keeping the versatility.
Cheers