Well, maybe not perfect, but I did get your attention!
Split polymorph into three components:
1: Possible powers and abilities: What abilities can you get, how powerful can they be....
2: Maximum size difference you can achieve: It would start with only one step down, but later, you could grow by 3 (or maybe even more) size categories or shrink in a similar matter.
Each increase or decrease would grant you (cummulative) size bonuses (or penalties) to your physical ability scores. One step up might be +2 Str, Two steps up +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, and so on.
That means a frost giant can become a dire bear with even the weakest spell (which doesn't allow a size increase), while a human needs a more powerful spell, and halflings need the really good stuff. It makes sense, too, since for a halfling, becoming an elephant, with an elephant's strength, is a much bigger boost than for a rune giant.
3: Enhancement bonuses to Physical ability scores in addition to the size bonuses you get for size increases: Stronger spells grant higher bonuses on top of the possible size increases.
Size increases:
+1: +2 Str
+2: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con
+3: +6 Str, -4 Dex, +4 Con
-1: +2 Dex
-2: +4 Dex, -2 Str
-3: +6 Dex, -4 Str
Example:
Beast Shape I: Allows to shrink by 1 size category and grants +2 enhancement bonus Strength
Elemental Body III: Allows to grow or shrink by 2 size categories. Also depends enhancement bonuses depending on type:
Air: +6 Dex, +2 Con
Earth: +6 Con, +2 Str
Fire: +6 Dex, +2 Str
Water: +6 Str, +2 Dex
Hmmm, size category differences are too large to make a mere +2 in STR. TO give an example that is a "pet peeve" about the Enlarge Person spell, which is really just a very limited polymorph function. All polymorphing that enlarges or reduces the subject by such proportions have the same flawed game mechanic.
This spell causes instant growth of a humanoid creature, doubling its height and multiplying its weight by 8. This increase changes the creature's size category to the next larger one. The target gains a +2 size bonus to Strength, a -2 size penalty to Dexterity (to a minimum of 1), and a -1 penalty on attack rolls and AC due to its increased size.Compare this to
Stone Giant
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 11Stone giants ...are about 12 feet tall and weigh about 1,500 pounds.
So, now your 6' human fighter has been enlarged to stone giant size, but only has +2 to his STR (let's say that raises him to 20). His banded armor now weighs 35*8 = 280lb and his backpack now weighs 50*8 = 400lb for a total encumberance of 680lb. He can only stagger around under that load, 5 feet per round, and loses DEX bonus. That ignores his 1500lb body weight, which effectively adds hundreds of pounds to his encumberance since the character is essentially "overweight" for his STR level.
By their own carrying capacity rules, +5 STR is a doubling of effective strength. The Enlarged Person has doubled in mass three times, and should have +15 STR if increase is proportional. This raises an average human to 25.5 STR, which is about the same as the stone giant.
I would give the subject of the spell the average of [10+size] and [STR+size], where in this case the size bonus would be +15 and the fighter would be [10+15]+[18+15]/2 = 29. I would allow magic enhancement to stack up to [STR+15], so Bull's Strength would raise it to 33 but a Belt of Giant Strength +6 would not increase it above 33.
Similarly large creatures would have similarly enormous STR. A black bear might be double the mass and +5 STR, a grizzly doubles mass again and +10 STR.
A really nifty idea.
Ooh, that reads very well. Makes being Small more mechanically different, but from a thematic standpoint it all hangs together very nicely.
I particularly like the suggested shift from defined size categories to relative size changes since one of the benefits to Polymorphic magic is the ability to alter one's size, and it does make sense that it would require more powerful magic to affect a greater alteration to the caster's size.
~Doskious Steele
Size categorie increases carry an increase in carrying capacity. All puns I could find so intended, and I guess some sneaked in.
Beyond that, the math doesn't always have to add up - not if it would result in a 1st-level spell granting a +6 size bonus to strength.
Unless we really increase the spell levels, I don't think the bonuses will come even close to what would make sense.
Well maybe the problem is a 1st level spell shouldnt MAKE you as big as a giant. Being able to turn INTO a giant should be a spell saved for around the time your character would meet and battle its first giant, so 3-4th level spell?
Then the spell would able to do what it is supposed to do mechanically.
Or Enlarge person should scale with level like say magic missle does.
So a 6' fighter goes to 8' at level 1 and +2 Str, 10' at level 3 and +4 Str and 12' at level 5 and a total of +6 Str ( a 'healthy' fighter would have a 20 str or more, he could reasonably have up to a 26 str)
It's same first level spell, but it would scale.
The character wouldnt be *8 mass until he was double the orginial height and by then he would be +6 str.
We also have to remember in this rule set 12 STR is the old 17.
20 used to be stone giant str. from 1e. So an enlarged fighter with a 20 str should be able to run around at 12 feet tall and 1500 lbs.
That ignores his 1500lb body weight, which effectively adds hundreds of pounds to his encumberance since the character is essentially "overweight" for his STR level.
I'm sorry but this body weight things has to stop. It was absurd with the elephant and is even more pointless now. A character's own body weight is not factored into encumbrance. If it were most medium sized average humanoids would all be operating under medium to heavy loads. This is really a side discussion regrading how much simulation there should be in the encumbrance rules.
His banded mail weighs 35*2 not 35*8, that's only 70 lbs. If he's large its only twice not eight times as much weight.
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When you enlarge you change all 3 dimensions (height, width, depth) which is why generally you multiply by 8 not 2 for increases in weight.
(OT)
As a house rule, we made the 'Enlarge' spell give the str bonus of +2 and the 'Powerful Build' feature. As part of the magic any weapon you pick up while under this spell increases in size to that allowed by the 'Powerful Build' feature as long as it is in your possession. We do not give the increase in reach to the recipient of this spell.
There is available a 3rd level 'Improved Enlarge' that makes the recipient one size category larger with all bonuses and penalties for a size increase.
"It's not what you are doing, it's how you look doing it!!"
The Unknown bard
We all know that giants violate the square-cube law and associated physics. Enlarge Person doubles your height, but I seriously doubt it doubles your width and depth too.
Well maybe the problem is a 1st level spell shouldnt MAKE you as big as a giant. Being able to turn INTO a giant should be a spell saved for around the time your character would meet and battle its first giant, so 3-4th level spell?
Basically the same problem that led to polymorph being divided into several versions with ranked powers.
We also have to remember in this rule set 12 STR is the old 17.
20 used to be stone giant str. from 1e. So an enlarged fighter with a 20 str should be able to run around at 12 feet tall and 1500 lbs.
No. That to hit and damage bonuses have been increased from 1e/2e means nothing in this context. 12 is a +1 to hit and damage, but it does not have the encumbrance bonus of STR 17 in 1e/2e. It was about +50lbs to light load, which is almost exactly the same as STR 17 in d20srd. STR 20 is now about the equivalent of 18/51% from 1e/2e.
Which is beside the point that Carrying Capacity is specifically stated to be a logarithmic function doubling every 5 points of STR, while the spell specifically says weight is multiplied by 8, which is three doublings (squared-cubed law).
That ignores his 1500lb body weight, which effectively adds hundreds of pounds to his encumberance since the character is essentially "overweight" for his STR level.
I'm sorry but this body weight things has to stop. It was absurd with the elephant and is even more pointless now. A character's own body weight is not factored into encumbrance. If it were most medium sized average humanoids would all be operating under medium to heavy loads. This is really a side discussion regrading how much simulation there should be in the encumbrance rules.
Yes, we all know those 350lb linemen are just as fleet-footed as the running backs and receivers. And all that stuff about obesity putting stress on the cardiovascular system exactly as if a normal person were physically loaded with the excess weight is a myth to trick people into wanting to be thin.
The charts are based on average humanoid frame, which would include allowance for normal body weight. There is an adjustment for four-legged frames, and that also assumes normal body weight for those creatures. While there is no rule for obesity in d20, a PC should not be able to gain weight like a hog and it not be counted against encumbrance.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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That ignores his 1500lb body weight, which effectively adds hundreds of pounds to his encumberance since the character is essentially "overweight" for his STR level.I'm sorry but this body weight things has to stop. It was absurd with the elephant and is even more pointless now. A character's own body weight is not factored into encumbrance. If it were most medium sized average humanoids would all be operating under medium to heavy loads. This is really a side discussion regrading how much simulation there should be in the encumbrance rules.Yes, we all know those 350lb linemen are just as fleet-footed as the running backs and receivers. And all that stuff about obesity putting stress on the cardiovascular system exactly as if a normal person were physically loaded with the excess weight is a myth to trick people into wanting to be thin.
The charts are based on average humanoid frame, which would include allowance for normal body weight. There is an adjustment for four-legged frames, and that also assumes normal body weight for those creatures. While there is no rule for obesity in d20, a PC should not be able to gain weight like a hog and it not be counted against encumbrance.
That's an unfair comparison. RBs and WRs train differently than linemen. Lineman train for strength, while the skill positions tend to focus on speed. Their weight is muscle as opposed to fat (unlike your obesity reference above). Sure, some linemen are flabby around the middle, but that is a result of their training as well (they do not focus on their abs as much as their legs and arms) and this flab is more than made up for with leg and arm strength training.
Typically, your 350 lb lineman would run rings around a 350 lb obese person, and would move as well as a "normal" person as long as the weight is muscle. The added muscle compensates for his body weight.
In D&D terms, a lineman would have a higher strength than an RB/WR, but a RB/WR would have a higher DEX.
The only way your body weight = encumbrance argument makes sense is if the PC is, indeed, obese - meaning all of the extra weight is fat. And if that is the case, then they should not be adventuring in the first place.
The charts are based on average humanoid frame, which would include allowance for normal body weight. There is an adjustment for four-legged frames, and that also assumes normal body weight for those creatures. While there is no rule for obesity in d20, a PC should not be able to gain weight like a hog and it not be counted against encumbrance.
Typically, your 350 lb lineman would run rings around a 350 lb obese person, and would move as well as a "normal" person as long as the weight is muscle. The added muscle compensates for his body weight.
That's because the added weight takes up less of the lineman's allowed carrying capacity.
The only way your body weight = encumbrance argument makes sense is if the PC is, indeed, obese - meaning all of the extra weight is fat. And if that is the case, then they should not be adventuring in the first place.
Read again what I said [emphasis added for clarity]. A person with a STR 20+ could indeed be considered normal with 250 lb body weight. But there are plenty of people with lesser STR who have difficulty keeping weight off, and there is no reason why adventurers couldn't be 30+ lb overweight and suffer that load penalty. Except that wouldn't be min/max... can't allow roleplaying in d20/PF ;)
NFL linemen like extra weight in fat because it helps them in their role of blocking (and no, abs exercises do absolutely nothing to adipose belly fat except in burning calories less efficiently than larger muscle masses). The extra weight does indeed encumber them, as they typically can't run the length of the field without becoming exhausted. That's one reason why football players only run 40 yards to test their speed.
I weigh 265 and doubt I have anywhere near a 20STR.
I have no difficulty getting around, doing normal daily work. (I work outside, physically, daily) nor any issues with fatigue.
20 Str would be like a professional body builder or wrestler.
I probably have 12-14, meaning Im stronger than most people I know and in my size category (6'5" 265lb) but I don't body build, compete in the county arm wrestling championships or rip telephone books with my pecks either.
that being said most peoples eyes pop uot of their heads when I lift/move/break or push things, remarking Im incredible strong.
Not really accurate, just compared to "average".
That's how I picture a person in DnD with 12-14 str in their home town.
That is until they start adventuring and meet the min max fighter with the 18 str and his half orc barbarian buddy with the 20 str and say hmmm, maybe Ill be a bard?
Pendagast, you're 6'5" and weigh 19 stone? Wow. That's, uh, a lot.
However, Straybow, discussing the physics of Str and Con by size and build and whether you have the capacity to lift your own weight is ridiculous when we're already assuming that magic can increase your size and handwave the thermodynamic issues of sudden increase in mass. If you're going to slaughter cat-girls, do it properly, rather than just attacking one equally inconsistent part of the magical process.
That is one of the reason why I like a "burden point" system better than an encumbrance = weight system.
sometimes, double the weight does not equals double the encumbrance. Likewise, an object with double the encumbrance isn't necessarily twice as heavy.
As far as size increase goes, I found it was easy enough to go "burden +1" (for size going up 1 size category) rather than weight x8.
But no matter how we look at it, the Enlarge spell does not give enough Str for the size it gives in order to make sense (or too much "enlargement" for the Str bonus it gives). Personally, I'd vote for an increase in Str and a bumb in spell level, probably make it an arcane close version of Divine Might...
'findel
However, Straybow, discussing the physics of Str and Con by size and build and whether you have the capacity to lift your own weight is ridiculous when we're already assuming that magic can increase your size and handwave the thermodynamic issues of sudden increase in mass. If you're going to slaughter cat-girls, do it properly, rather than just attacking one equally inconsistent part of the magical process.
I'm not attacking an inconsistency of magic, I'm attacking an inconsistency of applying a basic game mechanic (i.e., carrying capacity is determined by STR, not by size).
Pendagast, you're 6'5" and weigh 19 stone? Wow. That's, uh, a lot.
However, Straybow, discussing the physics of Str and Con by size and build and whether you have the capacity to lift your own weight is ridiculous when we're already assuming that magic can increase your size and handwave the thermodynamic issues of sudden increase in mass. If you're going to slaughter cat-girls, do it properly, rather than just attacking one equally inconsistent part of the magical process.
19 stone? is that an ancient english weight system?
Whens the last time you saw someone 6'5" that was much under say 230lb?
Most of the guys I know that are 6'5"-6'7" are pushing or over 300lb.
Used to be 6' 200 lbs was BIG. When I was in high school I was 6'5" and 240 and considered 'enormous'
Now a days Im closer to "average" there are so many people bigger than me (most of them quite a bit younger) it's silly.
My step son was bigger than me before he was 18 and before he was done growing.
These days the 170-180 lb 5'11" guy is considered "small"
I think it's all the steroids in chicken and beef personally.
That being said I'd LOVE to be 225lbs, but Ive been 250lb-265lb (depending) for about 10 years now and it doesnt seem to change (much) no matter what I do.
When I was in the military and younger and "slimmer" my waist was only 36" now its 38" so it's not even a big jump.
I have a 52" chest (which is oddly enormous) shoulders quite a bit wider than that (never had a reason to measure them) but clearly most of my body is not "belly".
If I could find a magic way to loose 30 lbs That'd be cool. However seeing as I work out side more than 8 hours a day (physical labor, more so during the summer however accounting for above weigh flucuation) and my calorie intake hovers around 1800-2100 calories per day. I rarely eat junk food, dont drink beer or smoke, dont eat fast food, most of the "usual" suspects for high weight or easy ways to loost weight are out of my life already.
I think it would take one of those weird diets from an herbalist, based on my blood type, to target any speific, long term wieght loss and would require me to drink prune juice and eat wheat grass.
I havent really gotten around to shaking free money or time for that. I spend both playing DnD and taking comfort most men my hieght are heavier than me (or the ones who aren't are freakishly thin)
;>