[Barbarian] Replacement for Uncanny Dodge & Trap Sense


Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Ranger


Based on another thread, from the following conversation:

Galnörag wrote:

I'm pro resistance, and against evasion.

Uncanny dodge protects against burst Rogue damage, where as evasion protects against lower AOE damage. Frankly a barbarian should have the HP pool to soak burst damage, and in character he is in the heat of battle as fireballs explode around him, not ducking and dodging. But he is also such a skilled combatant that no one can sneak up on him and stab him in the back.

Turin the Mad wrote:

Eehh - skilled is not the word mentally associated with barbarians outside of the game for me. And how else does one explain denying a rogue flanking other than by dodging, ducking and weaving?

No, if anything, the fighter is the skilled combatant by default, perhaps alongside the monk as a combatant of actual skill. Barbarians normally are the "hit them hard, make them fall down" types.

Of course, the concept of a skilled barbarian-fighter is why I hatched out the 'mindset' idea to begin with. Why on earth a barbarian ever acquired uncanny dodge has never been satisifactorily explained - so far - in a way that convinces me that the fighter shouldn't be the one getting the ability instead.

If we want to go with barbarians as "soakers of massive damage", why not grant them multiple Toughness feats instead of the ducking and weaving? I frankly find uncanny dodge and especially improved uncanny dodge to be rather unbalanced class features. The only ways around it are to paralyze or hold the character (which a steady diet of can generate harsh feelings PDQ) - all else being equal, the barbarian is +2 or greater than a fighter is to resist either effect from rage alone - so the only moderately reliable bypass is to Feint in combat, eating at least a move action to get ONE sneak attack in during a round. Hrm ... sounds like another thread topic ...

So, instead of having barbarians bouncing about the battlefield like rabbits on narcotics, ducking and weaving from rogues that are not 4+ levels higher than they are, how about having barbarians be the damage sponges?

DR/- piling up in windrows is perhaps not the best answer - past 5 or 6 points or so, they utterly ignore lesser creatures (and quite a few secondary natural weapon attacks from many dragons!) with impunity. Instead of uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense, how about multiple Toughness feats?

This would translate into additional Toughness feats at levels 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 for a total of 8 Toughness feats at 18th level.

Ramifications: Total hp are presuming a reasonable 16 CON and averaged 6.5 hp per d12 HD. Rage is not factored in.

  • 2nd level: additional 5 hp to the base of 12 +(d12 =7) +(2x CON bonus), resulting in 30 total hp.
  • 3rd level: additional 12 hp plus normal total for 3d12 HD (=25) +(3x CON bonus =9), resulting in 46 total hp.
  • 5th level: total hp of 12 +(4d12 =26) +(5x CON bonus =15) +9 +15, resulting in 77 total hp.
  • 6th level: total hp of 12 +(5d12 =33) +(6x CON bonus =18) +12 +18, resulting in 93 total hp.
  • 9th level: total hp of 12 +(8d12 =52) +(9x CON bonus =27) +15 +45, resulting in 151 total hp.
  • 12th level: 12 +(11d12 =72) +(12x CON bonus =36) +18 +72, resulting in 210 total hp.
  • 15th level: 12 +(14d12 =91) +(15x CON bonus =45) +21 +105, resulting in 274 total hp.
  • 18th level: 12 +(17d12 =111) +(18x CON bonus =54) +24 +144, resulting in 345 total hp.

LOTS of hit points? Yep, sure is. Ignores rogues? not any more. Gets rid of a pretty much valueless class feature? Definitely.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

My rebuttal didn't make it into this thread but my point was that uncanny dodge doesn't mean jumping around like a mad fool, it means deftly dodging at the exact right moment.

Imp. Uncanny dodge also means full ac from dex, and AOO on a surprise round, as well as the ability to make a ref save vs a spell. It is your preternatural combat instincts kicking in, you are always ready for combat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Galnörag wrote:

My rebuttal didn't make it into this thread but my point was that uncanny dodge doesn't mean jumping around like a mad fool, it means deftly dodging at the exact right moment.

Imp. Uncanny dodge also means full ac from dex, and AOO on a surprise round, as well as the ability to make a ref save vs a spell. It is your preternatural combat instincts kicking in, you are always ready for combat.

Which is my way of saying that calling it valueless is an overstatement.

Trap Sense Boo

Imp Uncanny Dodge yeah!


The barbarians class features pretty much range off the idea of the feral combatant (ala "wolverine") he has "sixth senses" about combat.
In the actual marvel superheroes rpg, wolverine has combat sense powers much like uncanny dodge and trap sense, even though in movies and comics it isnt really apparent that he uses these "passive" powers.

This, in sense, is the idea behind the barbarians uncanny dodge and trap sense. The "always ready for combat" "constantly on edge" almost "paranoid" combat style that is the barbarian.

Uncanny dodge also comes in use when admist a host of foes, surrounded by many. the improved uncanny dodge means the barbarian cannot be flanked, as he is aware of, and skilled in fighting all these bad boys at once.
It is a common scene to see the barbarian (ala conan) charging into a fray, where as a fighter might stay on the outskirts and fight his way in, the barbairan leaps in the middle and fights his way out.

If a barbarian were to do this kind of fighting (which would be common place during a rage) without uncanny dodge, he would find himself flanked and harried and literally cut down very quickly.

Uncanny dodge is an essential part of the barbarians fighting style.
Trap sense (although kinda hoky and lame) is a mechanical extension of the same "sixth sense" ideology behind his "feral" distrust of everything and anything.


I believe I have "unearthed" (pun intended) the game-origin for the 3e Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge abilities.

1e Unearthed Arcane, page 19:

"Back Protection: Any attempt to attack a barbarian from behind, including such attacks by assassins or thieves, has a 5% chance per level of being detected and countered. That is, if a barbarian detects a back attack (a 5% chance at 1 st level, 10% at 2nd, etc.) the barbarian avoids the attack form. The former back attack becomes a normal attack. The barbarian is also then entitled to attack the former “back attacker,” even though the barbarian may already have engaged in what would otherwise have been his or her full normal combat for that round."

Hrm, 5% per level eh? With a class level/XP advancement rate (combined with a proverbial host of other class features) roughly 1/2 to 1/4 the speed of all the other character classes of the time?

:)

Tell me how a jungle-dweller or viking sailor/brigand - in EVERY game-incarnation of the archetype, whether player character or NPC - has supermutant-grade combat senses again, especially when compared to the original source from whence the abilities sprung? ^_^

I just find that the two abilities combined are rather unnecessary - and if anything, belong to such characters as the Duelist prestige class represents, or Monks, with the "minds eye" element of mysticism, something, anything other than the barbarian of all classes having that on top of the rage powers! As it is, the regular Uncanny Dodge - a 2nd level ability, supposedly - is pretty much proof against sneak attack save for feint via Bluff, or getting locked up by magic that the character's generally higher-in-combat Will save greatly helps shield them against.

More importantly, are not hit points supposed to represent the majority of all characters' ability to narrowly escape harm, injury, maiming and mutilation in game terms? Why layer both non-bypassable DR *and* very difficult to sneak attack on top of their superior hp total? The combination of untyped DR and raw hit points, combined with the class' superior mobility (not counting magic, only a monk can outrun a barbarian) and almost guaranteed offensive melee superiority and now a *great* deal of flexibility in a given barbarian's "fine print" in just how that superiority is exercised is plenty sufficient IMO. YMMV of course. :)


Turin the Mad wrote:

I believe I have "unearthed" (pun intended) the game-origin for the 3e Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge abilities.

1e Unearthed Arcane, page 19:

"Back Protection: Any attempt to attack a barbarian from behind, including such attacks by assassins or thieves, has a 5% chance per level of being detected and countered. That is, if a barbarian detects a back attack (a 5% chance at 1 st level, 10% at 2nd, etc.) the barbarian avoids the attack form. The former back attack becomes a normal attack. The barbarian is also then entitled to attack the former “back attacker,” even though the barbarian may already have engaged in what would otherwise have been his or her full normal combat for that round."

Hrm, 5% per level eh? With a class level/XP advancement rate (combined with a proverbial host of other class features) roughly 1/2 to 1/4 the speed of all the other character classes of the time?

:)

Tell me how a jungle-dweller or viking sailor/brigand - in EVERY game-incarnation of the archetype, whether player character or NPC - has supermutant-grade combat senses again, especially when compared to the original source from whence the abilities sprung? ^_^

I just find that the two abilities combined are rather unnecessary - and if anything, belong to such characters as the Duelist prestige class represents, or Monks, with the "minds eye" element of mysticism, something, anything other than the barbarian of all classes having that on top of the rage powers! As it is, the regular Uncanny Dodge - a 2nd level ability, supposedly - is pretty much proof against sneak attack save for feint via Bluff, or getting locked up by magic that the character's generally higher-in-combat Will save greatly helps shield them against.

More importantly, are not hit points supposed to represent the majority of all characters' ability to narrowly escape harm, injury, maiming and mutilation in game terms? Why layer both non-bypassable DR *and* very difficult to sneak attack on top of their superior hp...

The barbarians rage concept came from a very real existance of specialized "savage fighters" known as berserkers. The celtic and Nordic/Germanic tribes all had berserker traditions.

The "legends" about their "mytical powers" to shrug off damage that would normally have killed a regular warrior to the diety-supplied super strength they supposedly had while in the "blood lust"

Basically they were half naked (sometimes all naked) crazy harry men with paint and tatoos that made minced meat out of armored roman centurions.

This is where the mutant-like super powers come from.
When raging, you dont think the barbarians bonuses to strength and con aren't mutant like super powers?
Far more powerful than some minor ability to notice traps a little more often than Joe the fighter.

We got it, you dont like the barbarians class features. things like this ar niether broken, nor are they going to change because of backwards compatibility reasons.


So, the beserker rage translates into dodging features instead of what rage and rage powers already do, perhaps even with MORE hit points (shrugging off wads of damage wading into massed centurions)?

I do not think the features in and of themselves are "broken" per se, so much as I fail to grasp how they express the berserker rage - especially since those class features work whether or not the barbarian is NOT raging. THAT I would find very acceptable, as there is at least a chance of it being interrupted or prematurely ended.

I can see gobs more hit points easily enough as part of the berserker rage. (Thus a proposal to strap on more hit points.)


Turin the Mad wrote:

So, the beserker rage translates into dodging features instead of what rage and rage powers already do, perhaps even with MORE hit points (shrugging off wads of damage wading into massed centurions)?

I do not think the features in and of themselves are "broken" per se, so much as I fail to grasp how they express the berserker rage - especially since those class features work whether or not the barbarian is NOT raging. THAT I would find very acceptable, as there is at least a chance of it being interrupted or prematurely ended.

I can see gobs more hit points easily enough as part of the berserker rage. (Thus a proposal to strap on more hit points.)

there was at one point in the barbaria/berserker history a mechanic for adding gobs of temporary hitpoints. I think it was a subclass of fighter called the dwarf berserker that had this (the dwarf would actually "grow" while raging.)

Obviously it didnt go over well because we havent seen it since.

No the skill of fighting in large masses of combatants, and the sixth sense of trap avoidance are suggested "side effects" of being the bearer of the supernatural rage.

Agin using the wolverine ideology, his primary or "active" super powers are regeneration, and adamantium skeleton/claws.
Formerly, older "versions" of wolverine had boosts to wolverines attack stats when he went berserk. It should be noted wolverine was originally designed to be a villian and was supposed to have been killed off by the hulk. The "concept" of giving wolverine animal senses, and a "sixth sense" in combat, came later, when the incorporated the character into becomming an X-man.
The reasoning behind these "senses" were a "passive" reflection of wolverines animal nature and fighting style.

trap sense and uncanny dodge are a part of the barbarian for the same reasons, that and going back to what I mentioned before, these were "powers" that berserkers supposedly had (according to thosewho witnessed them fight or knew them personally as memebers of their tribe.
Mainly because it was part of berserker folk lore, these types of abilities made it into the barbarian.

I'll admit the trap sense is a little weak and Id think evasion would fit better for what they were trying to do.
I think trap sense and trapfinding would fit in the ranger better, being as he is more of a "dungeoneer" than a barbarian would be.

Certainly the barbarian doesnt need any more hitpoints orbook keeping of temporary hit points, now that he has the rage point pool to follow along with now.


Hrm ... ok, I think I am finally grasping the concept.

^_^ Granted it has taken a sledgehammer to get it through ... I tend to be stubborn like that...


Turin the Mad wrote:

Hrm ... ok, I think I am finally grasping the concept.

^_^ Granted it has taken a sledgehammer to get it through ... I tend to be stubborn like that...

sigh, note that I have no love for the trap sense. I just "understand" why it was thrown in there.

If you think about it however, have you ever noticed how womping good of a "Lara croft" or "indiana jones" you get at such a low level by going barbarian/rogue?

any way I still think it should be the ranger that gets the trap sense and some trapfinding as well (but no disarm magical traps thats for rogues)

and barbarians? The certainly dont need any more love.


Pendagast wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:

Hrm ... ok, I think I am finally grasping the concept.

^_^ Granted it has taken a sledgehammer to get it through ... I tend to be stubborn like that...

sigh, note that I have no love for the trap sense. I just "understand" why it was thrown in there.

If you think about it however, have you ever noticed how womping good of a "Lara croft" or "indiana jones" you get at such a low level by going barbarian/rogue?

any way I still think it should be the ranger that gets the trap sense and some trapfinding as well (but no disarm magical traps thats for rogues)

and barbarians? The certainly dont need any more love.

Yeah, I think that is my fundamental problem with the varying structuring of the barbarian vs. rogue. You can "build" a disgustingly good Indiana Jones / Lara Croft type - but neither class really emulates the archetype particularly 'spot on'. The rogue certainly covers the skill points both need - but neither rage nor sneak attack seem to fit in with those archetypes at all. (Then again, no D&D core class seems to really cover them, excepting maybe the Expert NPC class...)

An interesting character concept though - just how grisly would a multi-classed barbarian/rogue get at higher level? How effective would the build be at higher level play? Would one rather just dabble a few levels in rogue and mostly emphasize barbarian levels (to get the crucial 11th level Greater Rage by say, 13th)? Or a build I found entertaining - which was just 1 or 2 barbarian levels (to snag rage and basic uncanny dodge), an extra rage feat, an extended rage feat and then go with whatever else struck my fancy - usually ranger or fighter. (I never dabbled with 'rage mage' - it just didn't 'feel' right, ya know?)

It seems really the only thing 'as is' that needs to go away is Trap Sense.

I can see that, having thought on it a few days, perhaps Improved Uncanny Dodge should be toned down a notch. Otherwise I expect in the future to see rogues at 4 levels over expected average party level in pairs as a regular nemesis in future adventure paths.


The trap sense is weird, and like I said I think it belongs on the "dungeoneering ranger".

Interestingly enough, I have a "rage mage" going right now. Half-orc, wizard/barbarian/eldrtich knight.

ID be intersted to see if anyone has used the trap sense of their barbarian or found it useful or appropriate?

Our PAthfinder play test group started out as a sneaky, light armor team (rogue, sorc, monk, barbarian) but later added a cleric and fighter (scale and plate armor respectively)
There were alot of traps, and puzzles and things, but we still never found +1 trap sense important. WE frequently forgot the barb even had it (had toflip over the character sheet) but its not like it would ever make a difference anyway.

I wonder if anyone has found this ability useful andnot just a waste of space for the barb?


Pendagast wrote:

The trap sense is weird, and like I said I think it belongs on the "dungeoneering ranger".

Interestingly enough, I have a "rage mage" going right now. Half-orc, wizard/barbarian/eldrtich knight.

ID be intersted to see if anyone has used the trap sense of their barbarian or found it useful or appropriate?

Our PAthfinder play test group started out as a sneaky, light armor team (rogue, sorc, monk, barbarian) but later added a cleric and fighter (scale and plate armor respectively)
There were alot of traps, and puzzles and things, but we still never found +1 trap sense important. WE frequently forgot the barb even had it (had toflip over the character sheet) but its not like it would ever make a difference anyway.

I wonder if anyone has found this ability useful andnot just a waste of space for the barb?

Think it has mattered ... oh, twice since 3.0 was released, in the games I've seen.

The Exchange

please keep trapsense, it being so useless is the only weapon i have agianst every melee character in the world being a slavering loin cloth wearing beast-man warrior (i prefer them over the poser "im a chainshirt wearing Fighter who has anger issues, when the time is JUST RIGHT I can fly into a rage that i can easily stop at ANY TIME") I just have a little problem with Barbarians being more tactically fun, round by round, then a Fighter.

sorry, got sidetracked. keep uncanny dodge (and make it a Fighter Feat while your at it) and ditch trapsense, replace it with another tactical minigame that the Fighter doesnt get. SNARK SNARK!


Sneaksy Dragon wrote:

please keep trapsense, it being so useless is the only weapon i have agianst every melee character in the world being a slavering loin cloth wearing beast-man warrior (i prefer them over the poser "im a chainshirt wearing Fighter who has anger issues, when the time is JUST RIGHT I can fly into a rage that i can easily stop at ANY TIME") I just have a little problem with Barbarians being more tactically fun, round by round, then a Fighter.

sorry, got sidetracked. keep uncanny dodge (and make it a Fighter Feat while your at it) and ditch trapsense, replace it with another tactical minigame that the Fighter doesnt get. SNARK SNARK!

ROFL ^_^

Why Sir Sneak of Dwagon, whatever are you implying? facial expression of unbelievably angelic innocence


Turin the Mad wrote:

So, instead of having barbarians bouncing about the battlefield like rabbits on narcotics, ducking and weaving from rogues that are not 4+ levels higher than they are, how about having barbarians be the damage sponges?

DR/- piling up in windrows is perhaps not the best answer - past 5 or 6 points or so, they utterly ignore lesser creatures (and quite a few secondary natural weapon attacks from many dragons!) with impunity. Instead of uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense, how about multiple Toughness feats?

This would translate into additional Toughness feats at levels 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18 for a total of 8 Toughness feats at 18th level.

Ramifications: Total hp are presuming a reasonable 16 CON and averaged 6.5 hp per d12 HD. Rage is not factored in.

2nd level: additional 5 hp to the base of 12 +(d12 =7) +(2x CON bonus), resulting in 30 total hp.
3rd level: additional 12 hp plus normal total for 3d12 HD (=25) +(3x CON bonus =9), resulting in 46 total hp.
5th level: total hp of 12 +(4d12 =26) +(5x CON bonus =15) +9 +15, resulting in 77 total hp.
6th level: total hp of 12 +(5d12 =33) +(6x CON bonus =18) +12 +18, resulting in 93 total hp.
9th level: total hp of 12 +(8d12 =52) +(9x CON bonus =27) +15 +45, resulting in 151 total hp.
12th level: 12 +(11d12 =72) +(12x CON bonus =36) +18 +72, resulting in 210 total hp.
15th level: 12 +(14d12 =91) +(15x CON bonus =45) +21 +105, resulting in 274 total hp.
18th level: 12 +(17d12 =111) +(18x CON bonus =54) +24 +144, resulting in 345 total hp.

LOTS of hit points? Yep, sure is. Ignores rogues? not any more. Gets rid of a pretty much valueless class feature? Definitely.

No, no, no, no, NO!

It's bad enough as it is.

What's bad?

The fact that barbarians are a huge drain on healing resources.

Take any balanced group at any level. Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Mage. Give the fighter typical weapons, armor, and HP for a fighter. Likely, if he knows what's good for him, the fighter is in full plate and a heavy shield as quickly as he can be.

Now run some fights and see how much healing that fighter needs.

Then replace that fighter with a barbarian of the same level. Give him typical barbarian gear, such as chain shirt and greatsword.

Now run the same exact fights and see how much healing that barbarian needs.

Change their levels, update their stats and gear, and try again. Try it any a few different levels.

You will very quickly see that the low-AC and high-HP barbarian needs much more healing than the high-AC fighter.

It's bad enough that the adventuring day is 15 minutes long. It's difficult enough to challenge the PCs with 4 challenging fights without them breaking off after #2 or #3 and finding a hole in the ground (or a rope trick) to go hide in for 8 hours to heal up and recover spells.

Please, please, please don't advocate turning that 15-minute adventuring day into a 10-minute day, or 5-minute day.

Side note:

If anyone here actually played Dungeons and Dragons Online, you know exactly what I mean.

Take any group into a dungeon with a fighter out in front, and the group can generally make it from shrine to shrine with little difficulty. Substitute a barbarian for that fighter, and long before reaching any shrine the poor healer is resorting to wands to keep everyone alive.

PnP isn't any different.

If you don't want to try my experiment above, you can simply apply the logic:

Point: Clerics (and any other healers) have a fixed amount of healing before they must rest.
Point: Barbarians have considerably lower AC than fighters, especially since they prefer 2H weapons to maximize the benefit of having high STR (higher while raging) - and 2H weapons are "barbarian coolness".
Point: Having lower AC means barbarians get hit more often and taking more damage in each fight, or at least in most/many fights.
Point: This is partially offset by allowing them some little amount of Damage Reduction so the more frequent injuries tend to be a little bit smaller.
Point: Nevertheless, barbarians already soak up more of the healer's limited healing than fighters, even with their tiny DR.
Point: Removing damage prevention abilities from barbarians only means they will often take even more damage during combat.
Point: This means they will soak up even more of the healer's limited healing than fighters.
Point: Compensating them for the loss of their damage prevention abilities by giving them more HP means they will soak up *EVEN MORE* of the healer's limited healing than fighters.

No, what barbarians need is a few new ways to reduce the amount of damage they take in every combat.


Usually the barbarian's much higher damage output shortens the fight, thus reducing damage taken and amount of healing needed. At least that is what I have seen play out. ^_^

Either way I look forward to seeing the 8-13-09 release to see what the 'final' decisions are & their implementation.


Now that I've ranted about barbarians and their healing soakage, here's a list of things that would make them more reasonable:

1. Barbarians are quick. Give them superiour REF saves. Let them reduce (save for half) some of the AE damage that fighters might otherwise soak up.

2. Remove Trap Sense entirely. No reason for this with barbarians' improved REF saves from #1 (the bonus AC against those few traps that attack AC will hardly be used enough or make enough of a difference to warrant the space to write it on the character sheet).

3. Move Damage Reduction to the levels (3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18) and amounts currently occupied by Trap Sense (3rd level would be DR 1 and 18th level would be DR 6).

4. At every level currently occupied by Damage Reduction (7, 10, 13, 16, 19) give them the ability to "shrug off" some of their wounds 1/day at each of those levels (1/day at level 7, 5/day at level 19). This ability can only be activated when Rage is activated, and it effectively heals a number of HP equal to the barbarian's current level. (Really, the wounds are still there, but the barbarian just doesn't care, which effectively means they don't hurt him and don't count against his HP anymore, so in game terms he gets the HP back).

5. Fix Renewed Vigor (Rage power). At 6 rage points, it's too expensive for what it does. Example: a 6th level barbarian with average HP (7/level) and a CON of 16 has 60 HP and 32 Rage Points. On round 1 he enters rage and attacks his enemies, and he takes some damage. On round 2 he activates Renewed Vigor instead of attacking and he heals 8 HP (average), and then he takes some more damage. On round 3 he activates RV and heals 8 HP and takes some more damage. On round 4 he activates RV and heals 8 HP and takes some more damage. On round 5 he activates RV and heals 8 HP and takes some more damage. Total Rage points spent: 29.

In 5 rounds of raging, the barbarain has used all but 3 of his daily allotment of rage points to heal about 32 HP (more like 30, on average) which is half of his daily total.

The cleric in the same group is 6th level casting Cure Serious Wounds for 20 HP (average) and Cure Moderate Wounds for 15 HP (average).

So, by using up so much of his daily rage, the barbarian can save 1 3rd level and 1 2nd level spell from his healer's daily allotment. That's a nice savings. It really is. But now he's pretty much done raging for the whole day, and he becomes just a low-AC fighter until he can rest 8 hours.

What is worse, is that during round 2, 3, 4, and 5, the barbarian did not attack anything at all, since Renewed Vigor requires a standard action to use.

Given all that, it's my contention that Renewed Vigor is broken.

I would never take this rage power as a barbarian. I would be unwilling to give up my only attacks in a round to heal a paltry 8 HP, at the expense of rapidly using up my defining class feature so fast that I only get to use it a couple rounds a day for what it was intended: crushing my enemies.

I would suggest changing Renewed Vigor to be used as a move action, but only useable once per round. This lets him swing away at his enemies, but not take full attacks - pricey, but not prohibitively pricey.

I would further suggest changing the cost of Renewed Vigor to 4, or even 3, but then adding in a restriction that it cannot be used at will - it must be used on the barbarian's very next round following an injury, and can only be used once per injury, and it cannot heal more than the amount of HP caused by that injury. So if he gets hit in round 3 for 18 HP, he can, but only on his next turn, use Renewed Vigor to heal 1d8+CON. That won't heal the full 18 damage he took, but there is no way for him to use the ability any more. Then if he gets hit again in round 5 for 5 HP, he can on his next turn use RV again, but only to heal a maximum of 5 HP, since that is all he was hit for.


It is my general rule of thumb to rail against "interrupt" actions, being of the opinion that immediate and swift actions are about the worst thing introduced to D&D.

That having been said, the "heal myself a little bit for an immediate action" concept is perfect and, if anything, is a fine candidate for further expansion for all the character classes.

Barbarians via rage expenditures, Fighters via Feat (or Fighter Talent), Rogues already have a similar Talent, casters via spell level consumption, Monks (improving their existing ability with that and a ki cost) and Paladins via the revised 'lay on hands' mechanism - or perhaps even costing a smite use for a smaller quantity.

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