It has been rather well established that Trap Sense is the most disliked class feature in the game, as there are at least a half-dozen well thought out - and even more that are not - alternatives to this class feature than have been published over the past few years.
Here I condense the listings of the best two I have at hand, then present two extensions of the first one along with a re-vamp of the first one for consideration.
Cold Resistance (ex) As detailed in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, page 41: A barbarian with this class feature gains cold resistance 2. This improves by 2 for every 3 additional barbarian levels, for a total cold resistance 12 at 18th level. At 9th level this grants endure elements to cold temperatures and a +1 resistance bonus to cold attacks, effects and spells. At 15th level the resistance bonus improves to +2.
My extensions of this class feature:
Fire and Heat Resistance (ex) A Barbarian with this class feature gains fire resistance 2 at 3rd level. This improves by 2 for every 3 additional barbarian levels for a total fire resistance 12 at 18th level. At 9th level this grants endure elements to high temperatures and a +1 resistance bonus to fire attacks. At 15th level the resistance bonus improves to +2.
Thunder and Lightning Resistance (ex) A Barbarian with this class feature gains electricity and sonic resistance 1 at 3rd level. Both resistances improve by 1 for every 3 additional barbarian levels for total electricity and sonic resistances of 6 at 18th level. At 9th level this grants a +1 resistance bonus to electricity, sonic and sound-based attacks, effects and spells. At 15th level the resistance bonus improves to +2.
In case it is not clear: only one of the three may be selected as an alternative class feature for the barbarian at 3rd level.
Spell Sense Complete Mage, page 35 is the only alternative to trap sense I've come across for barbarians thusfar that is palatable besides the above option. Sadly it is not OGL material however.
As another alternative to Trap Sense:
Uncanny Reflexes At 3rd level a barbarian with this alternative class feature gains a +1 dodge bonus on Reflex saving throws that improves to +2 at 9th level, then to +3 at 15th level. This is another way of injecting Reflex as an intermediate saving throw for the barbarian.
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It has been rather well established that Trap Sense is the most disliked class feature in the game, as there are at least a half-dozen well thought out - and even more that are not - alternatives to this class feature than have been published over the past few years.
Here I condense the listings of the best two I have at hand, then present two extensions of the first one along with a re-vamp of the first one for consideration.
Cold Resistance (ex) As detailed in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, page 41: A barbarian with this class feature gains cold resistance 2. This improves by 2 for every 3 additional barbarian levels, for a total cold resistance 12 at 18th level. At 9th level this grants endure elements to cold temperatures and a +1 resistance bonus to cold attacks, effects and spells. At 15th level the resistance bonus improves to +2.
I like this, with one cavet, 2/4 levels not every 3, maxing out at 10 at 20. I also thing the resistance bonus is unnecessary, but the endure elements just makes sense.
Ditto for the Fire / Heat version, in case you are a desert barbarian, but Thunder/Lightening have no rational place I can think of in the barbarian archtype
It has been rather well established that Trap Sense is the most disliked class feature in the game, as there are at least a half-dozen well thought out - and even more that are not - alternatives to this class feature than have been published over the past few years.
Here I condense the listings of the best two I have at hand, then present two extensions of the first one along with a re-vamp of the first one for consideration.
Cold Resistance (ex) As detailed in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, page 41: A barbarian with this class feature gains cold resistance 2. This improves by 2 for every 3 additional barbarian levels, for a total cold resistance 12 at 18th level. At 9th level this grants endure elements to cold temperatures and a +1 resistance bonus to cold attacks, effects and spells. At 15th level the resistance bonus improves to +2.
I like this, with one cavet, 2/4 levels not every 3, maxing out at 10 at 20. I also thing the resistance bonus is unnecessary, but the endure elements just makes sense.
Ditto for the Fire / Heat version, in case you are a desert barbarian, but Thunder/Lightening have no rational place I can think of in the barbarian archtype
I was going along the same structural lines as trap sense itself, as well as mirroring Paizo's own write-up of the feature. :)
The resistance bonus is deliberate, but I agree easily able to be cut out.
The thunder/lightning one I can see for extraplanar barbarians as well as those who are aquatic or seafaring in primacy. The whole idea is as a suggestion after all. Desert barbarians could easily warrant the thunder-n-lightning under certain circumstances. Perhaps ones best left to NPC foes raised by druids and/or blue dragons or something.
Trap Sense is a natural extension of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Endurance + Evasion could replace the features suggested in one fell swoop ;)
maybe restrict use to favoured terrains?
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I was going along the same structural lines as trap sense itself, as well as mirroring Paizo's own write-up of the feature. :)
The resistance bonus is deliberate, but I agree easily able to be cut out.
The thunder/lightning one I can see for extraplanar barbarians as well as those who are aquatic or seafaring in primacy. The whole idea is as a suggestion after all. Desert barbarians could easily warrant the thunder-n-lightning under certain circumstances. Perhaps ones best left to NPC foes raised by druids and/or blue dragons or something.
I think the caution I have with the resistance bonus is to keep it from being to over powered. Ditto on the going all the way up to 12 although I now see why that makes sense with the existing progression.
You could say that at level 3 you gain endure elements cold, and then at 6,9,12,15,18 you gain 2 resistance capping at 10. So that effectively at level 3 you are getting "resist cold 0" protecting you from mundane exposure.
The thing that bugs me about the thunder/lightening is I just can't see it occurring naturally (even in a fantastical setting) you can acclimatize to the cold which is around you constantly, or the heat for the same reason, but one is never subject to constant exposure to lightening, even in the stormiest of environments. If people are upset about the rage power that lets barbarians shoot elemental energy, then these seems to follow would upset them as well?
On paper, trap sense looks powerful, "Holy crap +6 ref sav/ac vs traps" but in reality, I'm almost never subject to traps unless my rogues are taking a holiday. It is so utterly situational as to be useless. At least resist cold / endure elements I'd use in a RP sense "What mage, you're cold! HA! but it isn't even midwinter yet, and the last of the leaves has yet to fall from the trees, is not your ailment that you are soft and weak like all bookish types!"
Trap Sense is a natural extension of Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Endurance + Evasion could replace the features suggested in one fell swoop ;)
maybe restrict use to favoured terrains?
I think the caution I have with the resistance bonus is to keep it from being to over powered. Ditto on the going all the way up to 12 although I now see why that makes sense with the existing progression.
You could say that at level 3 you gain endure elements cold, and then at 6,9,12,15,18 you gain 2 resistance capping at 10. So that effectively at level 3 you are getting "resist cold 0" protecting you from mundane exposure.
The thing that bugs me about the thunder/lightening is I just can't see it occurring naturally (even in a fantastical setting) you can acclimatize to the cold which is around you constantly, or the heat for the same reason, but one is never subject to constant exposure to lightening, even in the stormiest of environments. If people are upset about the rage power that lets barbarians shoot elemental energy, then these seems to follow would upset them as well?
On paper, trap sense looks powerful, "Holy crap +6 ref sav/ac vs traps" but in reality, I'm almost never subject to traps unless my rogues are taking a holiday. It is so utterly situational as to be useless. At least resist cold / endure elements I'd use in a RP sense "What mage, you're cold! HA! but it isn't even midwinter yet, and the last of the leaves has yet to fall from the trees, is not your ailment that you are soft and weak like all bookish types!"
Aye, both of you make some interesting suggestions.
I would be very hesitant to offer Barbarians Evasion unless they lost Improved Uncanny Dodge in trade, albiet gaining an Intermediate Reflex saving throw progression or the earlier-suggested cashiering of Trap Sense for the staggered dodge bonus to Reflex saving throws. Barbarians don't need favored terrains though - the concept is interesting. I can see gaining Uncanny Dodge at 2nd level, Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level and Evasion at 5th level alongside such an "intermediate" Reflex saving throw progression.
2nd level = gains 1st rage power, Uncanny Dodge and base Reflex saving throw of +1.
3rd level = gains Endurance as a bonus feat or Endure Elements as an extraordinary ability.
5th level = gains Evasion in place of Improved Uncanny Dodge.
As a review, I see "intermediate Reflex [or any other] saving throw" progression going something along the lines of:
- 2nd +1
- 4th +2
- 6th +3
- 8th +4
- 10th+5
- 12th +6
- 14th +7
- 16th +8
- 18th +9
With some thought I concur with ditching "thunder and lighting" altogether - as with the rest of my suggestions, they're intended as grist for the mill, to be discussed. :)
I can see your point too - gaining innate, extraordinary cold resistance at 3rd level seems a bit much, so let us go with the following re-workings of Paizo's write up of the alternative class feature to trap sense. Both of these are based upon the original write-up in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, page 41, re-worked here as an acceptable alternative class feature to Trap Sense for the Pathfinder RPG.
Cold Resistance (ex) A barbarian with this class feature gains endure elements to cold temperatures at 3rd level. Starting at 6th level the barbarian gains cold resistance 2, improving by 2 every three barbarian levels after 6th for a total cold resistance 10 at 18th level.
Heat Resistance (ex) A barbarian with this class feature gains endure elements to hot temperatures at 3rd level. Starting at 6th level the barbarian gains fire resistance 2, improving by 2 every 3 barbarian levels after 6th for a total fire resistance 10 at 18th level.
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I'm pro resistance, and against evasion.
Uncanny dodge protects against burst Rogue damage, where as evasion protects against lower AOE damage. Frankly a barbarian should have the HP pool to soak burst damage, and in character he is in the heat of battle as fireballs explode around him, not ducking and dodging. But he is also such a skilled combatant that no one can sneak up on him and stab him in the back.
I'm pro resistance, and against evasion.
Uncanny dodge protects against burst Rogue damage, where as evasion protects against lower AOE damage. Frankly a barbarian should have the HP pool to soak burst damage, and in character he is in the heat of battle as fireballs explode around him, not ducking and dodging. But he is also such a skilled combatant that no one can sneak up on him and stab him in the back.
Eehh - skilled is not the word mentally associated with barbarians outside of the game for me. And how else does one explain denying a rogue flanking other than by dodging, ducking and weaving?
No, if anything, the fighter is the skilled combatant by default, perhaps alongside the monk as a combatant of actual skill. Barbarians normally are the "hit them hard, make them fall down" types.
Of course, the concept of a skilled barbarian-fighter is why I hatched out the 'mindset' idea to begin with. Why on earth a barbarian ever acquired uncanny dodge has never been satisifactorily explained - so far - in a way that convinces me that the fighter shouldn't be the one getting the ability instead.
If we want to go with barbarians as "soakers of massive damage", why not grant them multiple Toughness feats instead of the ducking and weaving? I frankly find uncanny dodge and especially improved uncanny dodge to be rather unbalanced class features. The only ways around it are to paralyze or hold the character (which a steady diet of can generate harsh feelings PDQ) - all else being equal, the barbarian is +2 or greater than a fighter is to resist either effect from rage alone - so the only moderately reliable bypass is to Feint in combat, eating at least a move action to get ONE sneak attack in during a round. Hrm ... sounds like another thread topic ...
On topic, I find the cold or heat resistance options - or the non-OGL one in the first post - to be the most palatable options in isolation from the rest as an alternative to trap sense.
I thought TS, Udodge and IUD were given to barbarian as a basic package to compensate for Armour restrictions
also makes them wiley like an animal, a sort of danger sense
ever try to outflank a wild carnivore? ;)
okay, now, how about a rabid one (enraged)? :)
I was suggesting evasion maybe as a rage power or added after 10th level, not replacing IUD
If dropped, only a Rogue can be immune to sneak attacks
I'm against reducing Barbarians down to nothing more than tanks, that's what the can heads are for ;)
I thought TS, Udodge and IUD were given to barbarian as a basic package to compensate for Armour restrictions
also makes them wiley like an animal, a sort of danger sense
ever try to outflank a wild carnivore? ;)
okay, now, how about a rabid one (enraged)? :)I was suggesting evasion maybe as a rage power or added after 10th level, not replacing IUD
If dropped, only a Rogue can be immune to sneak attacksI'm against reducing Barbarians down to nothing more than tanks, that's what the can heads are for ;)
ROFL
Yeah, but I think Improved Uncanny Dodge combined with as-is significantly better hp does not make up for a somewhat better AC from what I've seen. (An armor-n-shield AC fighter is a lot harder to hit - but at the higher levels, the bad guys generally hit you most of the time no matter what, so at that point I want to whomp everything in return.)
^_^ I can see where a pure raging/rabid maul-swinging skull-smashing would be all kinds of fun to play! It's been a long time since I got to play rather than GM...
I've been fortunate enough to game with a group of GMs since the late 80's, a different DM/GM per campaign
all still game elsewhere and online on the side, but maintain the private coven ;)
Have found doing both stems off G.ame O.verseer D.iscretion burn out
I've been fortunate enough to game with a group of GMs since the late 80's, a different DM/GM per campaign
all still game elsewhere and online on the side, but maintain the private coven ;)
Have found doing both stems off G.ame O.verseer D.iscretion burn out
*Chuckling*
Yes, rotation is vital. In my particular situation, a quarterly rotation is pretty much called for due to the general size of player groups I end up getting stuck with GM'ing for. ^_^