RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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C for right now. Talk to me again in 20 years. There's a lot of history to hash out here before true hindsight kicks in. Lincoln was quite the unpopular buffoon too IIRC (brought his country to open civil war and all that), but he seems to have edged up the scale quite a bit since (probably into the top 2 overall). I think we're fooling ourselves and just buying into current partisan politics if we think we've already got the historical perspective on this. Time will tell for the good or for the bad.
I expect, 20 years from now, Bush will barely be remembered except maybe for "the President in office when 9/11 happened."
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C for right now. Talk to me again in 20 years. There's a lot of history to hash out here before true hindsight kicks in. Lincoln was quite the unpopular buffoon too IIRC (brought his country to open civil war and all that), but he seems to have edged up the scale quite a bit since (probably into the top 2 overall). I think we're fooling ourselves and just buying into current partisan politics if we think we've already got the historical perspective on this. Time will tell for the good or for the bad.
Definitely a good point.
Yeah, like this thread is going to stay civil. :) As a Republican I would give him a C. I would have given him a higher grade but he and the Republicans were too scared to stop the housing situation when it showed signs of becoming a problem a few years ago.
Actually, as a Democrat, I would still have to give him a C.
- His AIDS initatives will have a long lasting - and beneficial - impact on the world.
- His Education and Environmental record is not nearly as bad as the press would have us believe. Look at what he actually did.
On the otherside
- While the Republicans didn't do as much as they could have with the Housing Crisis. But, people tend to forget that it has its roots in President Clinton's administration.
- The Iraq war was a bad decision. But, I also do not remember the Democrats raising a lot of objections back in 2003 (which - as the loyal oposition - it would have been their Constitutional duty to do so).
- Finally, I do believe that Bush administration's approach to Diplomacy has needlessly antagonized the other nations of the world.
I will be interesting to see this in eight years or so. Consider how much President Carter's image has improved since he has been out of office.
And hey, let's not forget the stimulus, eh? Free money!
No such animal.
That money has to come from somewhere. And we usually won't like where it eventually comes from.
And hey, let's not forget the stimulus, eh? Free money!No such animal.
That money has to come from somewhere. And we usually won't like where it eventually comes from.
On top of that it didn't do anything for the economy. Obama's stimulus plan won't do anything either.
On top of that it didn't do anything for the economy. Obama's stimulus plan won't do anything either.And hey, let's not forget the stimulus, eh? Free money!No such animal.
That money has to come from somewhere. And we usually won't like where it eventually comes from.
Actually, even if it would help, Politicians (and the American public in general) tend to forget the idea that "There is no free lunch." So they don't tend to plan how they intend to pay for their stimulus plans. (B.T.W., I have seen that this is just as true of both political brands. :( )
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Actually, even if it would help, Politicians (and the American public in general) tend to forget the idea that "There is no free lunch." So they don't tend to plan how they intend to pay for their stimulous plans. (B.T.W., I have seen that this is just as true of both political brands. :( )
But... they're the GOVERNMENT! They can just PRINT more money and give it to us!
/naivete
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Actually, even if it would help, Politicians (and the American public in general) tend to forget the idea that "There is no free lunch." So they don't tend to plan how they intend to pay for their stimulous plans. (B.T.W., I have seen that this is just as true of both political brands. :( )
True that. There's no problem so big that *both* parties won't just throw billions of dollars at it and stick their heads back in the sand.
As for Bush, I have no idea. I don't like many of the choices he made, but that doesn't make him stupid or anything, just different than me.
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Somehow he had enough charisma to trick people into voting him in for a second term and that was his only move of any brilliance: pulling the wool over the eyes of enough idiots.
E-What a way to show class Fake Healer. Calling millions of Bush voters idiots. Just because certain people don't share your point of view doesn't make them an idiot.
I'm hoping that the people who voted for him will put a bit more thought into their next vote. Having an opposed POV isn't what makes someone an idiot. Watching him do what he did that first 4 years, listening to him spin it into a web of deceit, and then voting for him again though?
I'm not sorry if I offended some people. Whoever voted for him the second time put me in a position to have to live through a horrible mistake that they made. It makes me mad that so many allowed themselves to either be tricked or just voted that way because "that's my party".
Currently,I'd rank Bush Jr. as a D- at best.The only things he seems to have done well is getting elected for two terms as U.S. President and handing over the Presidency to Barrack Obama.[CENTER][IMG]http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/whatcolor_iswhite.jpg[/IMG]Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.[/CENTER]
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Somehow he had enough charisma to trick people into voting him in for a second term and that was his only move of any brilliance: pulling the wool over the eyes of enough idiots.
E-What a way to show class Fake Healer. Calling millions of Bush voters idiots. Just because certain people don't share your point of view doesn't make them an idiot.
I'm hoping that the people who voted for him will put a bit more thought into their next vote. Having an opposed POV isn't what makes someone an idiot. Watching him do what he did that first 4 years, listening to him spin it into a web of deceit, and then voting for him again though?
I'm not sorry if I offended some people. Whoever voted for him the second time put me in a position to have to live through a horrible mistake that they made. It makes me mad that so many allowed themselves to either be tricked or just voted that way because "that's my party".
I thank God not everyone has the same opinion towards the opposite party as you.
I would probably give him a C- to a D. I agree with most negative criticisms of the man's administration: use of torture, a war that was very poorly planned in its initial stages and whose justifications were extremely murky, the appointment of cabinet members based on personal loyalty more than merit, the Patriot Act, etc.
I think he did a few things right, though. The war in Afghanistan was the right move and before we were fighting two wars, it was going well. AIDS work in Africa is another big one; the reason Africans have given him an 80% approval rating.
We're going to be feeling the effects of his presidency for a long time and not just because of Iraq and Afghanistan: he's appointed a very large number of conservative judges to the bench and they're not going anywhere for a long time.
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I thank God not everyone has the same opinion towards the opposite party as you.Somehow he had enough charisma to trick people into voting him in for a second term and that was his only move of any brilliance: pulling the wool over the eyes of enough idiots.
E-What a way to show class Fake Healer. Calling millions of Bush voters idiots. Just because certain people don't share your point of view doesn't make them an idiot.
I'm hoping that the people who voted for him will put a bit more thought into their next vote. Having an opposed POV isn't what makes someone an idiot. Watching him do what he did that first 4 years, listening to him spin it into a web of deceit, and then voting for him again though?
I'm not sorry if I offended some people. Whoever voted for him the second time put me in a position to have to live through a horrible mistake that they made. It makes me mad that so many allowed themselves to either be tricked or just voted that way because "that's my party".
Just because I am anti-Bush doesn't mean I am on the side of the opposite party. I vote for the best candidate IMO that I see each election regardless of party affiliation. I am unrestrained by a self-imposed party limit. People who vote the same party line year after year without truly weighing all options and making as informed of a decision as possible are nothing but their party's slaves and yes-men. Doesn't matter which party that is.
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Bush has not even gotten on the list yet as one of the worst.Everything I have been hearing says that he is going to be judged very harshly by history and they are expecting him to be ranked as the worst president ever.
Not likely. The current judgement by presidential historians is that he ranks somewhere in the middle. The lists that I have seen usually have him about 25 or 26, usually one above or one below Bill Clinton.
A financial debacle that, while not his doing, had nothing done by him when he was informed to avoid it. The man has planted seeds of anti-american sentiment across the whole globe. A horrendous debt that will grow for many years while the pieces of his failed regime continue to fall.
Nore was anything done by members of the opposition party to avoid it either. As late as this time last year the Democrats were telling us that there was nothing wrong with Fannie or Freddie. Meanwhile Barack Obama is talking about driving the country even deeper into debt. Not to mention the fact that anti-American sentiment is being vastly exagerated by the U.S. media.
Edit: I was mistaken, the two historian based polls that include Bush 43 are the Siena College poll of 744 college history professors and the Wall Street Journal Poll which was made up of 132 professors, ecvenly split along ideological lines. The Siena poll had him ranked 23 and the WSJ poll had him ranked 18th. The Siena poll had Clinton 18th and the WSJ poll had him ranked 22nd, so they basically switched places.
E+; His blatant violation of federal and constitutional laws and starting a disastrous preemptive war are the main reasons for his grade. Congress also gets an E+ for letting Bush and Co. get away with the s%$t they pulled.
As your post suggests, only Congress can issue a declaration of war; so it's their fault for abdicating their authority by basically giving him carte blanche to invade Iraq. That said, and making it clear that the Iraq War has been in many ways terribly handled, we did liberate millions from one of the most brutal dictatorships on the planet, and we continue to help establish a stable, basically liberal democracy in the Middle East. And we have also neutralized large numbers of militants and terrorists, many of whom left relative safety elsewhere to fight in Iraq. Those are significant accomplishments. Furthermore, if you recall what Saddam used to pull in the 90s and early 00s (repeatedly allowing weapons inspectors in and then kicking them out), he gave the world every reason to believe that he was hiding WMDs.
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E+; His blatant violation of federal and constitutional laws and starting a disastrous preemptive war are the main reasons for his grade. Congress also gets an E+ for letting Bush and Co. get away with the s%$t they pulled.Again, what violations of the Constitution?
Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.
Bush has not even gotten on the list yet as one of the worst.Everything I have been hearing says that he is going to be judged very harshly by history and they are expecting him to be ranked as the worst president ever. I don't know about a "list" but that is enough for me. Two crappy wars, one entered with misinformation that was used to get other countries involved in it. A financial debacle that, while not his doing, had nothing done by him when he was informed to avoid it. The man has planted seeds of anti-american sentiment across the whole globe. A horrendous debt that will grow for many years while the pieces of his failed regime continue to fall. Yeah, I call that the worst. It isn't me looking at or "buying into" liberal propaganda, it's me taking a real look at the failing of the person who drove our country for 8 years. Somehow he had enough charisma to trick people into voting him in for a second term and that was his only move of any brilliance: pulling the wool over the eyes of enough idiots.
E-
Hear, hear! The whole 'buying Liberal propaganda' thing reminds me a lot of the 'liberals hate real Americans who work and achieve and believe in God' thing. Not sure why.
Personally, I'm not really a Liberal or Republican. I'm more of a Green. We've just been seeing a lot of lousy Republicans lately, and to be fair some lousy Democrats too.Greens rock, though. ;)
F
"I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system."
Note: I'd probably give every President an F, at least the recent ones. Obama's definitely getting an F.
Okay, this really pisses me off. Obama hasn't even been inaugurated yet, and yet you're willing to jump to an 'F'?! That is just extremely obnoxious. Bush has been president for a while, and so have many others. People have the right to form opinions and grades on them. But it is extremely annoying to hear someone who's assuming that Obama will get an F. |:(
James Buchanan canceled Firefly
WHAT?! He canceled a Joss Whedon show?! Oh he is goin down!!!!!!
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E+; His blatant violation of federal and constitutional laws and starting a disastrous preemptive war are the main reasons for his grade. Congress also gets an E+ for letting Bush and Co. get away with the s%$t they pulled.As your post suggests, only Congress can issue a declaration of war; so it's their fault for abdicating their authority by basically giving him carte blanche to invade Iraq. That said, and making it clear that the Iraq War has been in many ways terribly handled, we did liberate millions from one of the most brutal dictatorships on the planet, and we continue to help establish a stable, basically liberal democracy in the Middle East. And we have also neutralized large numbers of militants and terrorists, many of whom left relative safety elsewhere to fight in Iraq. Those are significant accomplishments. Furthermore, if you recall what Saddam used to pull in the 90s and early 00s (repeatedly allowing weapons inspectors in and then kicking them out), he gave the world every reason to believe that he was hiding WMDs.
I was't talking about any of that. My above post is what I was talking about.
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Bush's presidency is very tough to judge objectively right now. The country is quagmired in two wars at least one of which we shouldn't be in. The economy is in shambles. Partisan politics are at an insanely high level. The perception of our nation to the rest of the world has taken a negative turn. There is just a lot of bad stuff going on in our country right now.
How much of that is Bush's fault? That's tough. It's really easy to blame the nations leader when things aren't going well and to credit him when they are. A lot of what is happening has it's roots in places other than Bush's incompetence. If I had to grade him today I would give him an F. In 10 years I might feel differently. Bush Sr. was in my opinion a very good president(a B to B+). Dub-ya is nowhere in the same vicinity as his father IMHO.
One thing I do know, is that it is going to take a LONG time to undo the mess that the country has gottten into on W's watch. Whether his fault or not, he was in the highest office in the country when a lot of this mess avalanched into a national crisis. For now, I am thankful he is done and we are moving on to a new administration.
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I would give him an E. I am not going to explain my grade, and I will not argue with others who disagree.Except that in our state, E is the best grade you can get.
Maybe in southern Utah. Up in Salt Lake City, we use A, B, C, D, F in our public schools, as far as I know. I know our private schools use that system, but the U and Weber State substitute E for F. Weirdness abounds. Frankly, I think a simple percentage works the best, but their is a certain satisfaction I get with a big fat A plastered on a paper.
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Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.First two are ruled on, they are not violations.
The second two are covered by the Geneva Conventions, they are not violations.
That's right I forgot the patirot act removed any legal protections we had.
That's right I forgot the patirot act removed any legal protections we had.Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.First two are ruled on, they are not violations.
The second two are covered by the Geneva Conventions, they are not violations.
Good thing our new president didn't support it or vote to extend it when it was in the Sena... oh yeah, sorry.
Or the new vp ... oops.
Or the new secretary of state ... oh man!
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Regardless of the specifics of whether or not warrant-less wiretapping and bypassing courts were "technically" legal, I am certainly glad that they are being stopped. And if they are not, I will be very, very disappointed. As for prominent Democrats voting for and extending the Patriot Act, I hold them accountable for it, but not as much as those who wrote the blasted document. I have disagreed with the Patriot Act from the beginning of its life, and I hope to see it repealed or go un-renewed in the next decade or so.
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That's right I forgot the patirot act removed any legal protections we had.Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.First two are ruled on, they are not violations.
The second two are covered by the Geneva Conventions, they are not violations.Good thing our new president didn't support it or vote to extend it when it was in the Sena... oh yeah, sorry.
Or the new vp ... oops.
Or the new secretary of state ... oh man!
I gave Congress a f+ also, that would include the names you mentioned.
The last 8 years has seen the worst ledership the US has seen since the civil war.|
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And I did just think of a second thing, I think he loosened firearm restrictions in national parks, so hikers with concealed weapon permits can carry a gun in at least some national parks. Considering some of those parks are hundreds of square miles of no civilization and with only a few rangers to cover them, it isn't a bad idea to let people carry their own protection.
Yeah, my parents go hiking in a national park that still prohibits guns. Obviously, they don't follow that law.
Note: The above is fiction. My parents TOTALLY follow all laws. USA! USA!
I gave Congress a f+ also, that would include the names you mentioned.
The last 8 years has seen the worst ledership the US has seen since the civil war.
Word.
G.
I would also write a letter to his parents reccomending a remedial program to help him find a useful career in an auto shop or cleaning service, where he can perform simple tasks that wont confuse him, and he can get a sense of accomplishment. I hope that he can still find a role in society despite his handicaps and his general lack of curiosity and thinking skills.
Final Grade: C, with the student's thesis being out for review until 2030.
I voted for him twice, and consider myself a right-leaning libertarian.
Economy: B. Tax cuts early in his presidency helped pull us out of the recession that started at the end of Clinton's term and reached its peak right after the Sept 11 attacks. He failed to get Congress to fix the problems that led to the housing bubble, but since 90% of the population went along with the housing bubble, I can't fault him for it.
Other Domestic: D. Immigration reform failed in the face of opposition that he tried to ignore but couldn't. Massive prescription drug plan for Medicare also hurt his score. Too much federal spending for my taste. However, he appointed good judges (and even learned from the Harriet Myers debacle).
Foreign Policy: B+. During his watch, the UN Oil for Food scandal was uncovered, the UN scandal in Africa was uncovered, and generally the UN proved to be a useless organization. President Bush embraced the new democracies in Eastern Europe even as Western Europe shunned them. Iraq could very well be viewed in history as a successful turning point in the Middle East, with a second thriving democracy (Israel is the only other democracy there). Initially his administration also called North Korea to the carpet for violating terms of the agreement set up under the Clinton administration. He also called out Iran on its continued support of terrorists throughout the Middle East. Time will tell if this is the start of freedom for oppressed people or if the mullahs will stay in power for another generation.
Where I believe President Bush fell down the most was in dealing with the media and Congress. I'm not a politician (for good reason), but if someone kept saying "you lied to us to get us into Iraq" I'd probably pull out the intelligence reports from Russia, France, Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, and our own CIA to say "Listen, knuckleheads, everyone said the same thing. Get over it."
Actually, not playing "politics" was his biggest downfall. He never really did. He did what he though he needed to do, without the gamesmanship to get others to come along with him. Maybe this was due to the mantle of a 'war-time president' or maybe it was just his personality. Compare the political game of President Bush to President Clinton. Clinton had it nailed down. Bush only played the political game for any period of time during the election season.
Ultimately, history will be the judge here. No, he's not the worst president ever. I see that coming from many in the media who don't have the attention span of a gnat. If the Middle East moves to a path of freedom and liberty, President Bush will be given credit for initiating that process. But not by today's media. A generation from now, perhaps.
pulling the wool over the eyes of enough idiots.I don't know, perhaps the real idiots were the ones that nominated Kerry to run against him.
This: should we use absolute scale or compare him with others? If latter, his score is higher for democrats have given pretty poor performance too. And Clinton, who I rank among the good guys, was not exactly great at many issues either (much better work should have been expected on, say, environmental issues).
I'd go with a D, with rather low grades for the whole class. We are living in dark times.
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Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.E+; His blatant violation of federal and constitutional laws and starting a disastrous preemptive war are the main reasons for his grade. Congress also gets an E+ for letting Bush and Co. get away with the s%$t they pulled.Again, what violations of the Constitution?
According to NPR warrentless wiretapping actually began with the Carter administration, and the Constitution actually provides for the suspension of Habeas Corpus when public safety requires it. Lincoln, whom Barack Obama is modeling himself as, suspended Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. The FISA Court is not part of the Constitution so bypassing it can not be considered unconstitutional, in fact some Constitutional scholars believe that FISA itself is unconstitutional.
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Bush's presidency is very tough to judge objectively right now. The country is quagmired in two wars at least one of which we shouldn't be in. The economy is in shambles. Partisan politics are at an insanely high level. The perception of our nation to the rest of the world has taken a negative turn. There is just a lot of bad stuff going on in our country right now.
How much of that is Bush's fault? That's tough. It's really easy to blame the nations leader when things aren't going well and to credit him when they are. A lot of what is happening has it's roots in places other than Bush's incompetence. If I had to grade him today I would give him an F. In 10 years I might feel differently. Bush Sr. was in my opinion a very good president(a B to B+). Dub-ya is nowhere in the same vicinity as his father IMHO.
One thing I do know, is that it is going to take a LONG time to undo the mess that the country has gottten into on W's watch. Whether his fault or not, he was in the highest office in the country when a lot of this mess avalanched into a national crisis. For now, I am thankful he is done and we are moving on to a new administration.
Brent is right. Twenty years ago, many Democrats were saying that Ronald Reagan would be remembered as the worst president ever. Then last year, Barack Obama was invoking Reagan to try and win votes, and on Sunday Nancy Pelosi was using Reagan as an example of what a good president should be.
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That's right I forgot the patirot act removed any legal protections we had.Warentless wiretapping, bypassing the FISA court, detaining people with out the writ of Habeas corpus or being charged for any crimes and probably a few more.First two are ruled on, they are not violations.
The second two are covered by the Geneva Conventions, they are not violations.
Actually no, the Patriot Act mearly extended the powers of the RICO Act to fighting international terrorism instead of just orginized crime.
One of the main reasons I dislike Bush is the work he did on the Endangered Species List. You can't blame Congress for that.
And even if you could, Bush was still for it when he asked Congress. So quit saying 'oh, that's not Bush's fault, Congress let him do it!'
Yes, Congress sucks. Now, can you please accept that our old president was wrong on some things? It isn't all Congress's fault!
One of the main reasons I dislike Bush is the work he did on the Endangered Species List. You can't blame Congress for that.
And even if you could, Bush was still for it when he asked Congress. So quit saying 'oh, that's not Bush's fault, Congress let him do it!'
Yes, Congress sucks. Now, can you please accept that our old president was wrong on some things? It isn't all Congress's fault!
You're just mad at Bush because he didn't put Kobolds on the Endangered Species List. :)
C-
It'll be interesting to revisit this in a year to see if our grades change.
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I was watching a show about FDR on the History Channel and they mentioned something interesting. Several historians that they interviewed mentioned that had it not been for World War II FDR would have been considered, at least at the time, as the worst president ever. He was accused of violating the Constitution and attempting to create "an imperial presidency." Most Americans in 1940 considerd him a failure as a president and only voted for him because he promised to keep the United States out of a "European War." Only in the years after, when his actions were looked at with the objectivity of time, did people realize his genius and did he become considered one of the best presidents ever, and definately the best president of the 20th century. Just something to stop and think about.
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Only in the years after, when his actions were looked at with the objectivity of time, did people realize his genius and did he become considered one of the best presidents ever, and definately the best president of the 20th century. Just something to stop and think about.
Bottom five at best and probably the worst.
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I have to say, when it comes to President's who make a list of top national idiots, one really stands out to me.
This clown cut defense spending to the point of effectively not having a navy or army, then got into a war!
The dweeb cut taxes figuring to run everything on trade revenue, then tried to ban trade with our two biggest trading partners!
The fool was big on reducing the national debt, then provoked those wars, as well spending on a major imperialist expansion!
The jerk had this shtick about being a "strict" constitutionalist, then he overrode that to enable his imperialism!
This total incompentent did not bother firing federal prosecutors, he went all the way to try and impeach judges, including a Supreme Court judge!
He was an adulterer, carrying on an affair out of wedlock.
He held racist beliefs with elements of eugenics thrown in.
And somehow he is not on that Top 10 list.
Inconceivable!