Director of Brand Strategy
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Josh, for the next update I'd suggest adding a prohibition on worshiping evil gods and a mention on evil acts in character. Too many evil acts alignment shifting or something to that effect. Just my two copper.
Oh and as mentioned at GenCon a prohibition on awaken.
Mike
Why ban the worship of evil gods? As long as evil characters aren't allowed, what's the reason for cutting out a third of the gods that are only a year old? My PFS character, for example, worships Zon-Kuthon, but only because she was a tortured slave who found her own inner strength through the years of pain. So she's into masochism, but she's not evil. And for a whole, major nation like Cheliax to be forbidden from worshiping Asmodeus would be game-breaking. Considering that some factions are in strong support of slavery (a generally accepted evil act), how do you propose to make that jive with the existing system of play?
Banning evil characters does ban players from worshiping evil gods. GMs need to regulate evil at their table. That's about as far as I'll go with that.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Banning evil characters does ban players from worshiping evil gods. GMs need to regulate evil at their table. That's about as far as I'll go with that.
Um, does not compute. You can have a Lawful Neutral priest of Asmodaeus. In fact I have one at the table, and, were it not for my dislike of the cleric class, would play one myself. kind of a Wolfram and Hart kind of cleric.
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Banning evil characters does ban players from worshiping evil gods.
I am not sure any PLAYER will ever admit to worshipping an evil god ;D
As far as the original topic is concerned, it might be necessary to ban neutral clerics (or even worshippers) of an evil deity for the same reasons that there is a ban on evil characters.
However, would it be possible to have these reasons listed ?
Because I feel that people are worried about the repercussions of evil actions on a PC's part (ie, what a PC does) and that it translated in the ban of evil PCs, which has more to do with a character's concept than with his/her actions. But this then would be based on two hypotheses :
- That evil characters do evil actions (and a big number of them, or maybe just very very evil actions).
- That a non-evil character will not do evil actions (or far less grandiose ones maybe).
To obtain the expected results of the ban, it is necessary to validate or invalidate these two hypotheses. However, as long as we do not have any clear description of what a truly evil act is for the Organizers of the society and why they feel this way, it is impossible to suggest a relevant improvement on this issue.
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I think it goes back to the point of the game being to have fun. If people are having fun worshipping evil deities and doing not-nice things to NPCs, let them. I agree that the GM should be the one in control at the table. Why make a blanket rule that will affect everyone in the campaign? I'm certain that it would be ignored outside of convention play anyways. It is up to the GM to make sure everyone is having a good time. If there's a player at the table who is taking things too far and another player takes issue with the behavior, then it falls to the GM to say to the 'naughty' player "Stop it". I don't want to see this campaign fall prey to the debate about what constitutes an evil act and to start banning class features or deities based on an arbitrary descriptor. Let's trust our GMs to make the call at their tables and remember this campaign is supposed to be gritty and morally gray.
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Banning evil characters does ban players from worshiping evil gods. GMs need to regulate evil at their table. That's about as far as I'll go with that.
This post made me go "huh?".
A cleric needn't be of the same alignment as his deity. One step removed as long as the cleric doesn't end up true neutral is quite enough. Thus lawful neutral clerics of lawful evil deities (Asmodeus, Zon-Kuthon) and chaotic neutral clerics of chaotic evil deities (Lamashtu, Rovagug) are quite within the rules whereas clerics of, say, neutral evil deities (Norgorber, Urgathoa) are a no-no.
How is this regulating done? The DM uses his own judgment to deem an act by a PC evil, then intervenes with a stiff reprimanding? If the evilness continues after a due warning, is the DM in question to kick said offender out of his group for breaking the rules of the game?
Venture-Agent, Ohio—Cincinnati
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I've had three different negative-energy-channeling, lawful neutral, Asmodeus worshipers at my tables. One even controlled some undead for a few rounds before they were promptly destroyed by the do-gooders in the party. Does the prohibition on evil characters (as in alignment) need to extend to a ban on evil acts (however you wish to debate what constitutes an evil act)?
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In home campaigns banning Evil characters, I saw a rather disturbing trend of players playing Chaotic Neutral characters to get away with evil acts (based on the "I do not do it because it is an evil act but because it serves my selfish purpose" argument), making CN kind of Evil-lite : all the pleasure of evil (torture, murder, playing with undead, whatever), but alignment-hassles free (not smitable by Paladins, not banned due to having an Evil alignment ...).
Are Evil characters banned because they are supposedly too complicated to motivate for "good" missions ? Bevause evil acts by the PCs are a big no-no in a Convention-environment ? Because evil PCs tend to harass (ie steal from, betray, murder ...) the other PCs and then say "my aligment made me do it" (or even, "if I want to roleplay my PC correctly, he has to steal from, betray, murder ... your PC") ? Other reasons I do not see right now but which undoubtedly exist ?
If we better understand these reasons, it will become easier to define guidelines preventing "Evil" from ruining the game.
On a related note, I am deeply disturbed by the tendencies of "Good" players in my usual playing group to casually use lethal damage right away against opponents, to let them bleed to death, or to kill them (or at least put them in the negative, and then check the previous case) when they are helpless victims of a spell. And I wonder how far-spread this tendency is. When was the last time anyone saw a Cure Minor Wounds, or even a mere Heal check, used on an opponent ?
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I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I took Joshua's response to mean that he's not going to get drawn into this (recurring) debate. Play the game, have a good time but don't get your kicks out of ruining the game for other people. Don't expect a rule on the issue of evil acts other than "Use good sense and act your age".
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I took Joshua's response to mean that he's not going to get drawn into this (recurring) debate. Play the game, have a good time but don't get your kicks out of ruining the game for other people. Don't expect a rule on the issue of evil acts other than "Use good sense and act your age".
Oh I don't blame him for not wanting to dive into the 'evil PCs' arguement again. But this latest statement seems to invalidate a lot of character concepts and really hamper Cheliax further. We've seen LN priests of Asmodaeus and Zon-Kuthon mentioned, to make them retroactively illegal is going to upset a lot of people.
To the other Cheliax party. "7 out of 9 Cheliaxians worship Asmodaeus. The other two are being tortured even as we speak!" ;-)
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I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I took Joshua's response to mean that he's not going to get drawn into this (recurring) debate. Play the game, have a good time but don't get your kicks out of ruining the game for other people. Don't expect a rule on the issue of evil acts other than "Use good sense and act your age".
I must say that I would be quite interested in reading what was posted about this "evil acts by PCs" debate in other threads. It is definitely not my intention to relaunch an already done topic, nor to criticize the PFS' stance on this.
Can someone give me the links to the relevant threads ?
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I can't recall if there was a debate on these messageboards or not, but I know it was done to death over on the Wizards of the Coast boards. If you want to bang your head against that wall, I don't think you will have to look very hard Raven. The argument never remains civil for long, and usually the virtual shouting match boils down to people's religion & where their sense of morality comes from. Trying to define an evil act is like trying to prove which religion is right, if any of them are. The point is no one is going to agree, and people's emotions get the best of them every time. I would rather we just keep things simple in this game and not look to open Pandora's Box.
Erm. Typo FTW.
Banning evil characters DOES NOT ban characters from worshiping evil gods.