I know this is a small issue, but I think 500 gp for an alchemist's lab is way too overpriced, mainly for three reasons:
1) The bonus is equivalent to masterwork artisans tools, which only cost 55 gp. The alchemist's lab is less usefull given its heavy weight.
2) The +2 bonus is mostly relevant to lower level characters, but the high price makes it very difficult to attain.
3) Considering magic items creation, a wonderous item which grant you +5 to alchemy once per day would cost 500 gp (and only half i a lvl 3 character makes it himself). Since you properly never will roll alchemy more than once per day (or maybe week), then this would always be a lot better for the same cost. Applying basic economics there should be a low level item creator at some point in time, who would have conered the market, and earned 250 gp per day by producing wonderous items to replace alchemist's labs.
Not a bad idea with the once a day magic item. Jason had posted in another thread about other masterwork tools. I forget what exactly was posted for Craft (alchemy), but the idea of a small pocket book that grants +2 to Craft (alchemy) checks seems very reasonable, IMHO.
|
I think this is a case of just trying to be realistic. A set of masterwork thieves tools is a set of finely crafted picks, maybe with a leather sleeve. Well skill is required in their making, their just are not that many of them, nor do they use up a lot of raw material. They also ship for next to nothing as they are not fragile.
An alchemist lab is just that a LAB, it is a large amount of glassware, which was expensive until very recently, highly customized, lots of it, and fragile. A pc shouldn't be transporting his lab, and if you ask me a PC shouldn't be able to make potions without a lab. Masterwork or not, it would be expensive, but a proper masterwork lab would have carefully calibrated and graduated measures, maybe a scale or balance that and a set of weights that have been guaranteed by what ever authority governs trade. The alchemist lab represents a level of precision unparalleled in an age where precision is not readily available.
I think this is a case of just trying to be realistic. A set of masterwork thieves tools is a set of finely crafted picks, maybe with a leather sleeve. Well skill is required in their making, their just are not that many of them, nor do they use up a lot of raw material. They also ship for next to nothing as they are not fragile.
An alchemist lab is just that a LAB, it is a large amount of glassware, which was expensive until very recently, highly customized, lots of it, and fragile. A pc shouldn't be transporting his lab, and if you ask me a PC shouldn't be able to make potions without a lab. Masterwork or not, it would be expensive, but a proper masterwork lab would have carefully calibrated and graduated measures, maybe a scale or balance that and a set of weights that have been guaranteed by what ever authority governs trade. The alchemist lab represents a level of precision unparalleled in an age where precision is not readily available.
In that case, I'd say that the lab itself would grant a +2 circumstance bonus, allowing it to be of some use later on in the game, and stack with the Craft (alchemy) version of "artisan's tool".
|
|
In that case, I'd say that the lab itself would grant a +2 circumstance bonus, allowing it to be of some use later on in the game, and stack with the Craft (alchemy) version of "artisan's tool".I think this is a case of just trying to be realistic. A set of masterwork thieves tools is a set of finely crafted picks, maybe with a leather sleeve. Well skill is required in their making, their just are not that many of them, nor do they use up a lot of raw material. They also ship for next to nothing as they are not fragile.
An alchemist lab is just that a LAB, it is a large amount of glassware, which was expensive until very recently, highly customized, lots of it, and fragile. A pc shouldn't be transporting his lab, and if you ask me a PC shouldn't be able to make potions without a lab. Masterwork or not, it would be expensive, but a proper masterwork lab would have carefully calibrated and graduated measures, maybe a scale or balance that and a set of weights that have been guaranteed by what ever authority governs trade. The alchemist lab represents a level of precision unparalleled in an age where precision is not readily available.
Does a blacksmith have a masterwork forge, and a masterwork anvil, and a master work hammer and a masterwork set of tongs, so on and so forth? Do they all give him +2, so that an apprentice with a set of tools could forge Excaliber. Okay, I am being facetious, but you need an alchemist lab to do alchemy, as a baker needs his oven. If the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, maybe we should say that if a person doesn't have masterwork version of all the required tools of his profession then no +2.
|
But if I want to do alchemy I burn firewood to charcoal in a mudbrick fireplace and use my stone mortar and pestle to mill it to carbon, along with salt petre (Apprentice builders scrape it off brick walls in new housing developments) and sulphur to make gunpowder.
It should cost that 500gp to buy one made by specialists but it should be a test of craft skills, raw materials, and time to build one that doesnt blow up in you face.
|
|
But if I want to do alchemy I burn firewood to charcoal in a mudbrick fireplace and use my stone mortar and pestle to mill it to carbon, along with salt petre (Apprentice builders scrape it off brick walls in new housing developments) and sulphur to make gunpowder.
It should cost that 500gp to buy one made by specialists but it should be a test of craft skills, raw materials, and time to build one that doesnt blow up in you face.
That is one example of what one might make, it is pretty low complexity and doesn't necessarily require a complete "lab" but the lab represents everything you need to do any alchemy (not with standing the actual materials.)
But if your alchemist also had ranks in glassblowing, totally they could make this for themselves.
I think the realism argument for costly alchemical equipment is fairly good. A fully equipped alchemical laboratory should indeed be expensive.
But why should masterwork alchemical tools granting a +2 bonus necessarily imply this? This isn't the case for any other crafts. The smith could be expected to have a fully equipped smithy (Which would be impossible to move around), but he isn't even required to have an anvil (if you look at the weight of masterwork artisan's tools, 5 lb). Some how the smith is only expected to have a good hammer. The same assumption of a lavarous workshop could be expected from any other craftsman, but it doesn't. Except for the alchemist.
Even though alchemical equipment might be seen as an expensive commodity (glass ain't cheap in medieval settings), I don't think this counters the game mechanical problems this incurs. Firstly, I don't think a +2 bonus is much. But especially for an alchemist on the lower levels this is a necessity if s/he wants to have just at chance of creating items. The difficulties is 15, 20, and 25, the highest of any craft skill. Denying lower levels the bonus to craft (which I believe a 500 gp cost often will do), which any other crafters get easily attain, seems to state that alchemy shouldn't be availiable on the low levels.
Why shouldn't it? I don't that alchemy is better than other crafts. Basically you can use it to make d6 thrown splash weapons. This is quite useful if you are playing a small character, but in no way game breaking. Taking one level of evoker will grant you the ability to do the same without any costs (without splash damage, but a +1 dam.). On the higher levels, dealing d6 dam. isn't really worthwile.
I proposed a change in the price of masterwork alchemical equipment to balance it towards the other craft, but looking closer at it, it might be necessary to lower the DCs of craft rolls. Why should a tindertwig be more difficult to create than a full plate armor?
|
|
I think the realism argument for costly alchemical equipment is fairly good. A fully equipped alchemical laboratory should indeed be expensive.
But why should masterwork alchemical tools granting a +2 bonus necessarily imply this? This isn't the case for any other crafts. The smith could be expected to have a fully equipped smithy (Which would be impossible to move around), but he isn't even required to have an anvil (if you look at the weight of masterwork artisan's tools, 5 lb). Some how the smith is only expected to have a good hammer. The same assumption of a lavarous workshop could be expected from any other craftsman, but it doesn't. Except for the alchemist.Even though alchemical equipment might be seen as an expensive commodity (glass ain't cheap in medieval settings), I don't think this counters the game mechanical problems this incurs. Firstly, I don't think a +2 bonus is much. But especially for an alchemist on the lower levels this is a necessity if s/he wants to have just at chance of creating items. The difficulties is 15, 20, and 25, the highest of any craft skill. Denying lower levels the bonus to craft (which I believe a 500 gp cost often will do), which any other crafters get easily attain, seems to state that alchemy shouldn't be availiable on the low levels.
Why shouldn't it? I don't that alchemy is better than other crafts. Basically you can use it to make d6 thrown splash weapons. This is quite useful if you are playing a small character, but in no way game breaking. Taking one level of evoker will grant you the ability to do the same without any costs (without splash damage, but a +1 dam.). On the higher levels, dealing d6 dam. isn't really worthwile.
I proposed a change in the price of masterwork alchemical equipment to balance it towards the other craft, but looking closer at it, it might be necessary to lower the DCs of craft rolls. Why should a tindertwig be more difficult to create than a full plate armor?
Why should they have to be balanced? Different professions require different more expensive or complicated equipment. A bowyer can do his work with a few good knives. Should that ever cost the same as the equipment required to do smithing or alchemy?
I don't think there is any need for these to be balanced, as the cost of the materials will still dictate/balance what the characters can make.
Well as long any other crafts doesn't require any mentionable equipment, though many of the should (the smith, the leather worker, the weaver...), then I believe it is fair to ask about balance.
Why should the alchemist require a fully equipped lab, when nobody else does?
It really doesn't make any sense. You don't need the lab to make alchemy, just to get the +2 bonus. The equipment needed to make alchemy is included in the material cost. If so, it doesn't make sense that you don't get a discount from having a lab, which should include this equipment. The +2 bonus could easily be explained from some masterwork tools (mortar and pestle amongst other things).
What do you say about the other part of my argument? Shouldn't it be possible to craft alchemy at the lower levels?
I believe it is near impossible with the current DCs and expensive masterwork tools.
|
|
Well as long any other crafts doesn't require any mentionable equipment, though many of the should (the smith, the leather worker, the weaver...), then I believe it is fair to ask about balance.
Why should the alchemist require a fully equipped lab, when nobody else does?
It really doesn't make any sense. You don't need the lab to make alchemy, just to get the +2 bonus. The equipment needed to make alchemy is included in the material cost. If so, it doesn't make sense that you don't get a discount from having a lab, which should include this equipment. The +2 bonus could easily be explained from some masterwork tools (mortar and pestle amongst other things).What do you say about the other part of my argument? Shouldn't it be possible to craft alchemy at the lower levels?
I believe it is near impossible with the current DCs and expensive masterwork tools.
I think the presence of the equipment is assumed. With hammer in hand I can't make a suit of plate mail out of thin air, I need a workspace that is properly designed for the task. I need raw materials, and I need tools. The Hammer represents the tools, and we are being a shade arbitrary and saying "if you have good tools," then with a suitable work space you can do armor smithing. You still have to then pay for your materials, really you would also have to pay rent to use someone else's work area if you didn't own your own. And it probably wasn't the armorer's either but the Armorer lord's.
For an alchemist the lab is the tools, the "work area" is a sturdy work bench, in a preferably flame/blast proof structure. The material, is the non-reusable component of the work. The glass bottle you decant the Alchamist Fire Into, and the oils and reagents in the fire. The lab equipment is reusable.
Should it be possible to craft at low levels? Sure, should it be easy or cheap, heck no. Alchemy was "cutting edge science" and you were as likely to blow yourself up, as succeed in making stuff. The costs represent the actual cost to a professional who wants to setup a shop and go into the alchemy business. From the prices, it is clearly something extremely rare, and probably only in the largest of cities, and learned centers.
There is no inherent need or reason why prices should be balanced, they represent real physical objects that have a cost. It would like me going to the grocery store and asking the store owner to sell me a $40 prime rib for $5 because that is how much a tub of ice cream costs and dinner should be balanced with dessert...
I think the presence of the equipment is assumed. With hammer in hand I can't make a suit of plate mail out of thin air, I need a workspace that is properly designed for the task. I need raw materials, and I need tools. The Hammer represents the tools, and we are being a shade arbitrary and saying "if you have good tools," then with a suitable work space you can do armor smithing. You still have to then pay for your materials, really you would also have to pay rent to use someone else's work area if you didn't own your own. And it probably wasn't the armorer's either but the Armorer lord's.
This seems fair enough in theory, but I can't see how this in any way is related to the game's rules. The rules doesn't say anything about having workspace, only having a set of tools which weigh 5 lb. The rules doesn't state that the armorsmith can't work in the wilderness, so I don't see where your argument is coming from.
And yes, alchemy might be cutting edge science, but taking ranks in this craft, indicates that the character has recieved training in this. So there is no particurlar reason that it game mechanically should be impossible for lower level characters to make.
Doesn't the rules to some degree discourage players from using craft alchemy?
It is expensive, it is difficult, and when you attain high enough levels to actually create stuff, the items is too weak to be of any use.
|
|
This seems fair enough in theory, but I can't see how this in any way is related to the game's rules. The rules doesn't say anything about having workspace, only having a set of tools which weigh 5 lb. The rules doesn't state that the armorsmith can't work in the wilderness, so I don't see where your argument is coming from.And yes, alchemy might be cutting edge science, but taking ranks in this craft, indicates that the character has recieved training in this. So there is no particurlar reason that it game mechanically should be impossible for lower level characters to make.
Doesn't the rules to some degree discourage players from using craft alchemy?
It is expensive, it is difficult, and when you attain high enough levels to actually create stuff, the items is too weak to be of any use.
The rules omit the need for a suitable workspace because it is assumed. Even video games (while the trivialize it) require an armour smith to have a forge and anvil, you can't just fabricate out of thin air (unless you are a wizard with the fabricate spell.) So yes, not explicitly stated in the rules, but that is because it doesn't need to be.
There is no alchemical item in the table that is mathematically impossible at level one. Craft is an int skill, and for characters with it on their class list they can reasonably have +9 or even as much as +12 at level 1 (20 int, 1 rank, 3 for class, + 3 skill focus.) So even the most challenging items on the list are only a DC 25, so you can succeed on a 13, 11 if you have the lab.
Is it expensive, sure, is it challenging, yes, of all the skills does it make the biggest difference to characters at a low level, yes. Its utility is balanced against its challenge. It is also realistic, as craft skills should be.
Well if it doesn't need to be stated in the rules for craft such as smithing, why should it be stated for alchemy?
There is no prices for having (or renting) a forge, just for the equipment.
The fact that you can use the craft with improvised equipment at -2 quite clearly shows that you can use the skill without having the ideal conditions. Or do you suggest that this incident is when characters is in a fully equipped smithy, but not having a hammer? This would seem quite unlikely.
As far as alchemy goes, I think there is a lot of things which should be easier to do than smithing in simple surroundings. Mixing acid or poison shouldn't require much, unlike crafting an armor or sword.
I think your calculation of the alchemy score is rather extreme. Not many characters has a starting int of 20, and not many have a feat to spend on something of as little use as craft alchemy. A wizard might have an int of 18 (which is quite high if you use point buy), and other classes would have 12 or 14. This makes a +5 to +8 more realistic.
You mention a balancing of difficulty vs. utility. I agree on this completely. Taking into account, however, that the utility of, let's say, making one batch of alcemist's fire seems pretty darn lower than making the best non-magical armor or weapon in the game, I think this argues for lower the difficulty of alchemy.
|
|
The fact that you can use the craft with improvised equipment at -2 quite clearly shows that you can use the skill without having the ideal conditions. Or do you suggest that this incident is when characters is in a fully equipped smithy, but not having a hammer? This would seem quite unlikely.Well if it doesn't need to be stated in the rules for craft such as smithing, why should it be stated for alchemy?
There is no prices for having (or renting) a forge, just for the equipment.
As far as alchemy goes, I think there is a lot of things which should be easier to do than smithing in simple surroundings. Mixing acid or poison shouldn't require much, unlike crafting an armor or sword.
I'm not sure how much you recall from highschool chemistry (which at the end of the day that is what Alchemy is) but even with high quality equipment (and compared with a fantasy RPG setting even the poorest North American High School has "masterwork equipment") more student botch simple experiments then succeed. So, unless your character is MacGuyver, then they don't have a hope in hell of making a guided exploding arrow out of two tinder twigs, Cormyrian Army Knife, and a q-tip (yeah I don't have a pun one for that.)
While the rules don't explicitly state that a smith needs a fully equipped smithy, it also doesn't state that they need a suitably designed workspace for doing there work. Where at least in my earlier example that was defined as a stout desk, and a stone building, probably a place that is dry, and free of dust, with a good light source. So if your DM wants to allow you to improvise a hammer from a stone and craft plate mail over a campfire from some raw iron ore, then he should be equally willing to let you take the same -2 and make your tinder twigs in while making camp in a box. Its not rational, but hey if you want to nit pick the rules, be my guest. The fact remains that the "Lab" is the tools and not the workspace. The cost reflects the cost of the equipment.
I think your calculation of the alchemy score is rather extreme. Not many characters has a starting int of 20, and not many have a feat to spend on something of as little use as craft alchemy. A wizard might have an int of 18 (which is quite high if you use point buy), and other classes would have 12 or 14. This makes a +5 to +8 more realistic.
As for the 20 Int, any point buying human can have 20 int. Skill Monkies, I mean rogue's wouldn't find it unusual to have a 16+ in that skill, nor would bards. Both are likely users of alchemy, and in that case a 16 they would max out at +10, which still means success (with tools) on a 13+ for the hardest objects.
You mention a balancing of difficulty vs. utility. I agree on this completely. Taking into account, however, that the utility of, let's say, making one batch of alcemist's fire seems pretty darn lower than making the best non-magical armor or weapon in the game, I think this argues for lower the difficulty of alchemy.
But for a character to make Masterwork Platemail for example they would require 1/3 (1500+150)g = 550g in material, much more then the material to make Alchemist Fire, so the individual items are balanced by their prices, not the equipment required to make them.
So I continue to fail to see why craft skills should either be balanced or why they should be fair. Not that I see that they are particularly unfair, or unbalanced.
My point, stripping it all away, is that glass is expensive, precision instruments are expensive. So precision glass instruments are expensive. Nothing wrong with this, nothing right with this, it is just a fact, and facts are not required to be fair, nor balanced.
My main concern was not really that it should be fair or balanced. I would really like crafts to be useful at any level. I don't think it is really the case at this time.
But lets not bicker more on this subject. Let us just agree to disagree.
The 500 gp cost for the alchemist's lab is basically a charge for those who want to use Brew Potion, even if this shouldn't necessarily apply to the witch with the cauldron and the messy kitchen.
Honestly, there should be one +2 bonus for a nice set of artisan's tools which cost 55 gp regardless of the craft and another +2 bonus for a pimped-out workroom built and furnished expressly for that purpose, costing 500 gp, and granting another +2 bonus which stacks with the one from the masterwork artisan tools.
The really nice inn in town probably has a stage and a vaulted ceiling and a whole bunch of other stuff that the innkeep paid an expert 500 gp for to use his Knowledge Architecture and Engineering to do some strange magic called "acoustics" which makes all the performers on the stage sound better (and gives them a +2 bonus to their Perform checks). The royal kitchens are likely so pimped out they give a +2 to both cooking AND baking. And so on.
Just go with it as 55 gp for portable masterwork artisans tools and 500 gp for nonportable masterwork artisans workshop/performer's stage/businessperson's office for craft, perform and profession respectively.