I don't know about you, but as a player I'm pretty fed up with situations in which my PC is killed due to failing a *single* roll (surprisingly often it's Initiative), and being told that my guy will be out for the rest of the *session*. If I've spent money (on a bus ticket and food, for example) it *DOES* feel unfair -- I've come to *play*, not to "match my wits" or luck against the DM. There *are* items that help with most of the effects, but it's a big investment for every PC to acquire them, and not all DMs let you buy them (i.e. no "magic shops" in their campaigns).
You know, this is a very good point. I've always considered the issues from an in-game perspective and not the out-of-game perspective. One of my groups I play with is only able to meet once a month. It would be pretty heinous to pop such a spell or situation on the players where one die roll determines their fate early on in the session and if it goes badly, they're waiting for another month... or for a long time at least, as we play at high level, and it's time consuming to roll up another character.
Lots of stuff.
Ah, my GM is expressing her view on these spells again.
I've made my views pretty clear elsewhere on these things. As a DM, I threw these things at people in previous editions. They lived, they died, they got raised, the game went on. As a player, I think I've died more than all the other people I've played with put together (at least in the games I've been in), almost all of those deaths attributable to death magic. Do I like it? It's depressing and tends to sour my mood. But I live with them. They're an occupational hazard. I hate blowing saves in general, so blowing the one that gets me killed isn't a big leap here. But I want SOD to be 'save or die', not 'save or be inconvenienced'. While I find the idea of the ability track intriguing, it raises another problem.
Let's say your the party fighter in the standard fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard party when you meet a beholder. During the battle, the beholder hits you with ye old death ray. You roll the lucky dice, but alas, they're lucky for the beholder and you get the one. You now have, say, 3 rounds before the effect puts you down. The problem that worries me? Now the cleric has 3 rounds to reach you before you expire. Your cleric, who is literally your lifeline, has now had his/her hand forced. One of the ongoing problems many of us have with the cleric is the problem that the cleric has to do all this healing in melee instead of having the option of unloading their wonderful spells and wielding their maces against deserving foes. I've posted comments in other threads about this particular issue. At high levels, this could potentially get ridiculous (such as with the beholder, above, or say an advanced bodak) when SOD effects can occur repeatedly.
As the party cleric in Deathquaker's game, I know it's my job to keep the rest of the party functional (aka alive). I also built my cleric to be less effective on the front lines and to do support and healing specifically and have so far had no problems with it (other than deciding what to cast on who some rounds). I'm also the one loaded with death magic that I have (so far) refrained from using on poor unsuspecting foes (but if I meet that gnome sorcerer again, all bets are off). But I agree with the fact that these effects turn dramatic battles into swiss cheese. We'll see how our current solution holds up once I finally decide that my enemies need to die and die NOW, not when the paladin and shadowdancer dice them to pieces . . . .
While I don't like players to die, I do like to keep my players really worried when they encounter a high level necromancer, or a beholder, nerfing these spells takes away alot of the suspense and in many cases just doesnt warrant a spell of the same level anymore.
As a DM I will try to arrange for a believable option to get players raised when I am toying with instant death or pertrification, or at least plan them so that players do not have to sit on the bench for the rest of the session, instead give access to spells that can raise someone if used within rounds after death occurs
(judging that his spirit is still attached to his body in some way)
without losing much, maybe suffer a negative level for a while or such, but not unrestorable at least and draining less resources.
It should take them out of the encounter though, so that the villain's spells are not cheapened in effect.
I wanted to reiterate a point that got lost in my earlier rambling.
One of the reasons I don't like some SOD/S spells is not just because "oh no, they might kill your PC!" but because... well, there's a good chance they won't. Some of these spells--NOT all, of course--are often "Save Negates," meaning they are all or nothing spells. The spells I tend to consider powerful are the ones that are either always at least somewhat effective and/or are things like touch-attack spells (where the failure or success of the spell seems more in the hands of the caster alone). As a player I know I tend to opt for something that is more likely to do SOMETHING no matter what (because given my luck, the target's going to make his save no matter what).
When Lathiira's cleric in my campaign does get around to casting the more powerful spells in her arsenal, I actually am hoping they will go off to great effect. Would suck if the cleric of death threw off her most powerful spells that she's been "saving for best" and the big bad just shrugged it off completely. At the same time I need to make sure the big bad isn't a one-shot, one-kill, because then he's not very big or bad, is he? It does create a difficult, not easy to solve situation. I wish I had better answers to offer.
Anyway, the point is, in SOME cases, the making of the save can disintegrate dramatic tension as much as the failing of it.
But as for creating dramatic tension, it's possible that making the SOS/SOD effect more "interesting" may fall more in the hands of the GM who can set up their use in the most satisfying way, and those like myself who are minimally skilled just may not handle those situations well.
Still, I will hope for something that opts for "merely painful and tense" over "impossibly powerful". But I also get the point that "Finger of Dying" does seem less impressive than the "Finger of Death." Still, I am at least unlikely as a GM to cast the thing at my players, because, bottom line, it's just no fun for me.
IF there were secondary effects for these spells for when the save is made most of my opposition to downtoning the few left that haven't been already
Consider what has already been done to the "death spells:
Wail of the Banshee is just 10 points of damage per caster level... basically a Mass Harm that is completely negated by a save throw.
Finger of Death is a bit better but if they save it's basically Cause Serious Wounds with d6's.
Implosion is like Wail of the Banshee only slower.
Mass Hold Monster gives a save throw every round (which is alright with me, but just about garantuees that most people will be free long before the duration will be up.
Slay Living is a single target fireball that doesn't improve and becomes a Inflict Serious Woulds with d6's if the target saves.
The ones that are left that seem to cause the most concern currently are that are left:
Baleful Polymorph
Flesh to Stone
Insanity
Imprisonment
Dominate (x)
the damage spells make these spells simply look like evocation spells, most spells just aren't that interesting anymore, the most interesting aspect of the spells is the fact of bypassing hitpoints.
constitution drain and negative levels are the obvious alternatives, would be a bit better, since it at least has an effect relative to the HD of the target, making it a bit more than a cheesy fireball.
It will definately be lethal though, so I guess that is out, we don't want to have anyone actually get hurt bad...
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When Lathiira's cleric in my campaign does get around to casting the more powerful spells in her arsenal, I actually am hoping they will go off to great effect. Would suck if the cleric of death threw off her most powerful spells that she's been "saving for best" and the big bad just shrugged it off completely. At the same time I need to make sure the big bad isn't a one-shot, one-kill, because then he's not very big or bad, is he? It does create a difficult, not easy to solve situation. I wish I had better answers to offer.
Add more spells to the game that increase the chances of a failed save when the big one gets fired. More spells to reduce SR, increase DC, etc. I recently went through a list of about 4 spells that ended up in a Sunburst that was almost impossible for the vampire BBEG to save against and hence destroyed him utterly. It took several rounds of combat to achieve this though.
Keep the save or dies and add a few rounds of setup needed to get the best out of them.
I assume you replied to the wrong person, or misunderstood my sarcasm? Because I agree with what you are saying (and my post you replied to handled things in the same "tone"). ;)
Replied to wrong person, sorry. :(
Now, what I'd like to see is the "Condition Track"-mechanic from 4E, since it'd still enable you to die, and remove you from the game for at least 2-3 rounds (unless you roll well).
I'm not familiar with this, but based on what I've heard, this seems like a good mechanic to adjudicate these effects.
While I don't like players to die, I do like to keep my players really worried when they encounter a high level necromancer, or a beholder, nerfing these spells takes away alot of the suspense and in many cases just doesnt warrant a spell of the same level anymore.
It also means that characters can't instantly vape the BBEG in the first round of combat...
Baleful Polymorph
Flesh to Stone
Insanity
Imprisonment
Dominate (x)
All subject to my ire! LOL
If those specific spells where turned into full round actions (or even 1 round) spells it wouldn't hurt my feelings any. However their primary use is naturally combat and with anything nearing a minute casting time renders them all but useless. So I wouldn't want to see them have that long of a casting time.
While I don't like players to die, I do like to keep my players really worried when they encounter a high level necromancer, or a beholder, nerfing these spells takes away alot of the suspense and in many cases just doesnt warrant a spell of the same level anymore.It also means that characters can't instantly vape the BBEG in the first round of combat...
yes it does, but I don't really have a problem with that, unless it interferes with my storyline in which case I cheat. rarely I even make PC's aotofail a save, just because I like it.. sue me.
seriously though, even if the BBEG can fail that save and die instantly, if you play it out and roll the dice this alost never happens, the players will almost never try it because they waste valuable rounds if they make the save making the combat that much harder. Also the BBEG isn't going to wait till he can try it again for the next 4 rounds of combat. Generally I just roll the dice and see what happens.
We had great fun one time when I had a Big Evil Guardian demon face the PC's as final encounter and the druid polymorphed it... in a bunny, ofcourse it could still use spell-like abilities and looked really scary and demonic *sighs*.. the PC's ended up kicking it through it's own bladebarrier spell repeatedly, honestly I felt a little offended, but it was great fun afterall.
I´m all in for increasing casting times generally. (I foretell this comment: OH MY!!! he tries to nerf my 1300 point of damage fireball [I've seen one...])
Why there is a need for a unified [Death Spell] category? Some could do CON damage, CON drain, massive HP-damage, cause real instant death, drop hit points to a certain level. That can be scaled by spell level. Also some effects should delay a round, but lessen post applied countermeasures.
Example: Phantasmal Killer:
1. round: Will save for disbelieve, -4 to attacks, saves, skill checks caused by fear
2. round: Fort save for instant death
Baleful Polymorph
1. round: Fort save against beginning transmutation, fail causes -5 to
attacks, saves, skill checks and lets spells have a failure chance of
1% per caster level,
2. round: Fort save against full transformation, fail causes usual
disadvantages
3. round: Will save against losing mental abilities
Finger of Death
Causes Instant Death, nothing on successful save
Or
1. round: Fort save partial: do 1 point/2 level CON drain, save
reduces to 1/2 that amount and ends ongoing effect
2. round: Fort save partial: do 1 point/2 level CON drain, save
reduces to 1/2 that amount and ends ongoing effect
3. round: Fort save partial: do 1 point/2 level CON drain, save
reduces
Flesh to Stone
1. round: Fort save against partial petrification, -6 to attacks, saves, skill checks, gain vulnerability to acid and cold.
2. round: total petrification
Wail of the Banshee
1. round: Fort save against beeing stunned, gain -9 to attacks, saves,
skill checks, spell failure of 2% / level for spells with verbal
components, save negates stunning, the -9 penalty but the spell failure
remains
2. round: Fort save against instant death
There's no a need for a time effort to sustain the effects. The penalty to attack, saves and skill checks is obviously equal to the level of the spell, since countermeasures are equal effective to the level of it. (Death ward, level 4, gives +4 against death effects, Protection from spells, level 8, gives +8 and so forth). It could be even higher since normally those spells kill instantly.
Oh, I'm sorry. It wasn't a fireball. That was an combust spell (Spell Compendium)
Standard Metamagic-Superman-Built (Wiz5/Inc10/Halruaan Elder5):
Combust (SpC) with CL10+: 10d8
Per Ocular Spell (LoM) or Reach Spell it becomes a Ray.
Then Split Ray: 20d8
Twin Spell: 40d8
Energy Admixture (Fire): 80d8
Maximize Spell: 640
Empower Spell: 820
Enervate Spell (LM): 1230 for one 9th level spell slot(yeah that stacks fully)
Searing Spell (Sand) just because it's possible!
Thanks to massive Use of Metamagic-Reduce-Abilities you pack a theoretical Level 22 Spell into a 9th level spell slot.
You need 3 Slots (or 2 and a Pearl of Power Level 9) to prepare 2 Ocular spells and one Reached one.
The 2 Oculars are loaded, remaining 8 hours. As a full round action you blast out the 2 Ocular spells and with a Greater Metamagic Rod of Quickening the Reached Spell as a Swift action.
Does a total of 3690 fire damage as a Full-round action and with 3 9th level spells that ignore resistance completely and immunity in 50% of the cases.
Maybe there's Munchkin somewhere, but I don't think so.
Metamagic feats are applied on the base spell, not the spell with metamagic. Such damage should be significantly lower. Check the rules, because that damage is wrong.
However not everyone plays with such combos, nor with those overpowered prestige classes. If GM does not know how to control these aberrations, the result is well deserved. The rules should be made for the average player.
Any sort of attack spell under the Pathfinder regime gives the target a 'cushion', to avoid anticlimatic one-shot kills. The various death spells from 3.5 etc didn't allow a cushion, so they've been refitted to do hp damage. A character's hp is now their cushion against a Finger of Death just as it is against a Fireball.
Problem with this is, as many people have pointed out, that it removes the 'death' from the death spells, making them 'damage which may cause death' spells like every other attack spell.
Lots of suggestions to, instead of using hp as the cushion, use ability scores - Con in particular. Could work, since it's a different resource that provides a different 'feel', but I kinda agree that the less ability score mods that get thrown around in combat the better - it's just too much maths and too much of a pain.
For myself I prefer that for death-type effects, time be used as the cushion. As others have suggested, a Slay Living might, on a failed save, kill you after three full rounds have elapsed unless someone does something about it. Whether there's cumulative penalties accrusing or not probably depends on the individual spell (but, again, I'd be sparing on them for fear of over-complicating things mathswise).
This bears the question, of course, what constitutes 'doing something about it'? The instantaneous death spells now have durations, which makes them vulnerable to dispels, which brings arcane spellcasters into play and doesn't put all the healing burden onto the cleric. Perhaps a healing effect of equal or greater level to the death effect could be used to counter it, instead of repairing hp damage? Of course the spell could be counterspelled as normal, not that anyone ever actually does that. Death Ward and save boosts would be effective as normal. I'd be wary of requiring a whole new chain of spells specially designed to thwart this sort of thing, since they'd pretty much be compulsory to memorise, and since the cleric couldn't spontaneously cast them that'd reduce him back to memorising only heals rather than interesting stuff all the time...
This gives us a few variables to play with to make more/less powerful death effects - which makes life more interesting for necromancers at least. Obviously higher-level spells have higher save DCs, and can have longer ranges or affect more than one target, or have more significant effects on a successful save (though that 3d8 points of damage when your enemy saves against your Finger of Death is kinda like kissing your sister...). But now we can also tweak the duration (high-level spells might only allow one round before the victim dies), and there's an inherent increased effectiveness in the powerful spells since you need higher-level spells to counter them. You can also play with the penalties that accrue over the course of the spell (if a Heart Attack spell stuns you for a round before it kills you, then it's getting very nasty), and different ways of removing the spell. Perhaps the low-level death spells require a move action to maintain each round over their duration (like moving a flaming sphere), or some could be automatically dispelled if their caster is killed before they come into effect? There's some interesting tactical wrinkles there, I think - it gives both caster and target more options, and more to think about. And it can help add a bit more variety to the save-or-die spells, which (let's face it) can be more than a little bit samey in play.
What about using a mechanic like the holy Word, blasphemy spells? The death spell does a specific effect depending on the HD difference of the caster and victim.
Finger of Death could (for example) cause the following:
Victim Equal HD/Greater HD than Caster - Half damage (no save)
Victim up to caster level -1 - Save or full damage (half damage on a save)
Victim up to Caster level -5 - Save or Die (full damage on a save)
Victim up to caster level -10 - Die (no save)
Skullking, Kalyth, both of your solutions favor the PC's enemies since they have 1. much more HP 2. more Hit Dice general speaking. With this sort of spells you kill the minions and not even effect the BBEG, which they should but with a not so heavy and boring effect like: Bang, your dead, what now?
(Making the resulting effect depend on Caster level/HD relation was a poor idea in 3.5 since boost on caster level is quite cheap. Damn that hasn't changed, at least there's a saving throw now)