Hi, all.
I have called upon this system a number of times now, but only because it deserves it.
It Star Wars Saga Edition again as a bright example of how it can be done better. Its system of using Force Powers is more fun then D&D magic and should in a way be implemented.
The powers are more free, and can be used on the fly. But the best thing about it are the reaction powers like Rebuke or Negate Energy.
The first lets the caster try to negate or even return any Force power that is affecting him or the area where he is at.
The other negates energy attacks targeted at him.
Both last for just that one action and cannot be used again until the caster had time to rest or had multiple uses of that power.
Yes this sound like 4e a bit, but it is better.
3.5e and Pathfinder need something like this. Letting more spells be used on the fly is what will make magic more interesting. Especially during mage duels. Force user against force user is the main show, the main fun. And it is not about how wins initiative like in D&D (or who had more time to prepare). In D&D mage duel is not about the mastery of the Art, but who has better reflexes. It is lame and it is stupid.
I would prefer that defensive spells (at least some of them) can be cast as reactions during your (like against AoO) or enemies rounds. They would last just for that one effect, not hours, minutes or even rounds. All the different class powers that wizard, sorcerers and clerics get could be used for this (since memorized spells are too few).
I do not have a proposal on which spells could be changed like this, this idea first needs to light some light bulbs in people's heads.
ITs called holding your action, and counter-spelling
Hi, all.
I have called upon this system a number of times now, but only because it deserves it.
I do believe that Jason has stated quite clearly that the basic magic system is not changing. Period.
As such, I don't think that your request/suggestion has any chance of changing Pathfinder.
OK, let me suggest some things to make things more interesting.
1. Let counterspelling be a reaction once per round. But only be able to counterspell spells that target you or the area you are in.
You need to pass the Spellcraft check to identify the spell first and then use the same spell, opposing spell or dispel magic. But whatever spell you chose you roll your caster check against DC 11+caster level of the caster of the spell you are reacting to.
Then introduce a feat that allows more then once per round to counterspell and a feat that allows you to use higher level spells of the same school to counter incoming spells.
A feat that gives a +2 bonus on this counterspelling check would be cool as well. And maybe a better version that gives +4.
2. Give spellcasters spells that are similar to real spells like Shield but that are not cast as a standard action and last x round/minutes/hours but can be used as a reaction to an attack (immediate action), last only that one round and can be used lets say Casting Ability modifier times per day. So for instance if you had Shield memorized and had Int of 16 (wizard) you could instead of casting Shield and have it last 1 minute per level cast is as immediate action just after DM declares someone attacking you and before he rolls the attack roll and have that last just until the beginning of your next turn but you could do it like this 3/day per spell slot memorized (or available in case of spontaneous casters).
And for Stoneskin, you would use it after DM NPC rolls his attack and hits you but before he rolls for damage.
Both changes would also be more useful for spontaneous casters and give them a bit of power and make them more useful when compared to standard casters.
Use the Vance young padawan.
It's been part of D&D since, well, 1974
I am. My proposals do not change the current system, they add to it.
1. Let counterspelling be a reaction once per round....
There has been a discussion concerning Counterspelling as an Immediate action Here. It might interest you
2. Give spellcasters spells that are similar to real spells like Shield but that are not cast as a standard action and last x round/minutes/hours but can be used as a reaction to an attack (immediate action), last only that one round and can be used lets say Casting Ability modifier times per day. ...
I actually quite like this idea, especially for Sorcerers. It could be as simple as allowing them (with appropriate limits) to cast spells targeted on themselves as Immediate actions, but also reducing the duration to 1 round.
Sounds interesting to me.
While the system for Force Skills has always been Star Wars' best feature (I wish psionics worked the same at dnd)... it's also sadly its ONLY redeeming virtue, given how that game is the apotheosis of negative game balance... technically there are only two character classes, Jedi Guardians and the rest.
Your proposal is interesting though, I like it, but still I'm not sure of where it would fit... certainly the last thing we need is making magic even easier to cast, things like that are the main cause of the progressive nerf on spells until getting to the sorry state they're in now.
While the system for Force Skills has always been Star Wars' best feature (I wish psionics worked the same at dnd)... it's also sadly its ONLY redeeming virtue, given how that game is the apotheosis of negative game balance... technically there are only two character classes, Jedi Guardians and the rest.
Your proposal is interesting though, I like it, but still I'm not sure of where it would fit... certainly the last thing we need is making magic even easier to cast, things like that are the main cause of the progressive nerf on spells until getting to the sorry state they're in now.
Well, I think you are talking about the old Star Wars, RCR.
The Star Wars Saga Edition is much, much better then any d20 system out there. Yes, even better then Pathfinder (or it would be if there was a fantasy version of it :D). No, 4e is not it.
But I do not want Pathfinder to have spells like force (it would need too many changes), but just have a bit more responsive magic. Responsive to what happens in between spellcaster's rounds.
And the current problem with spells is not about the way they are cast but their effects. And this change I only propose this for defensive spells, not all. Not even in Star Wars SE attack force powers can be cast as anything less then standard actions.
Maybe it could work like this:
Certain spells that already exist have two versions, a normal one and an immediate one. When you cast it you choose what version you want to use.
One is cast as now and has same effects, duration and everything.
The other one is cast as immediate action, and loses in duration.
1 hour/lvl spells become 1 minute/lvl.
1 minute/lvl spells become 1 round/lvl.
1 round/lvl spells become 1 round spells.
OR
1 hour/lvl spells become 1 round/lvl.
1 minute/lvl spells become 1 round spells.
1 round/lvl last only against that one attack that you are reacting to.
What do you think?
Let me remind you that Arcana Evolved successfully managed to push the idea of spells having multiple effects chosen by the player. And they done that for almost all the spells in that book.
Let me remind you that Arcana Evolved successfully managed to push the idea of spells having multiple effects chosen by the player. And they done that for almost all the spells in that book.
Yeah but then Arcana Evolved is Monte Cook's, and Monte is the GOD of d20. I'd -love- to see a rework of spells with Arcana variantions like diminished, heightened and such though, that would do tons for giving dignity back to magic.
Let me remind you that Arcana Evolved successfully managed to push the idea of spells having multiple effects chosen by the player. And they done that for almost all the spells in that book.Yeah but then Arcana Evolved is Monte Cook's, and Monte is the GOD of d20. I'd -love- to see a rework of spells with Arcana variantions like diminished, heightened and such though, that would do tons for giving dignity back to magic.
It is not that hard to do that yourself on the fly. The were rules on how spells worked when diminished or heightened. Not written in the book but easily worked from existing spells.
But what I just loved from Arcana Evolved was the metamagic system.
Not sure how balanced it was dough, since I didn't much of his game.
Rules I like a lot, the world of the Diamond Throne not that much.
Was thinking of somehow playing with those rules in FR but lack of clerics is a problem for a world of FR when Gods are the main movers and shakers of everything (and their minions).
Anyone had successful FR game using Arcana Evolved rules?
But ON TOPIC:
Arcana Evolved still had the same problem as D&D 3.5e and Pathfinder and that is spells were not reactive enough. Using magic on the fly is what is cool.
I just loved games like BG1 and 2 where different spells could be cast with different speed. So you could watch what the other caster was casting and then if needed cast a faster defensive spell before his spell hit you. It was cool and exciting.
We need that in D&D pnp. And no, reading actions is not that.
There are some good ideas here.
Unfortunately, I don't expect them in the core rules, but I can easily see this as a splat book of alternative spell versions.
That idea about a blanket rule for casting self-targetted spells as instant actions that reduce the duration by one step is useful.
See a magic missile being cast (spellcraft check, of course) and whip up a 1 round/lvl shield spell on the double.
I like that.
Was thinking of somehow playing with those rules in FR but lack of clerics is a problem for a world of FR when Gods are the main movers and shakers of everything (and their minions).
Precisely a friend and I have been fiddling for a while on how to adapt Arcana's magic to dnd/Pathfinder. One of the many ideas from our brainstorming is using spells' descriptors for asigning spells to classes.
ex: Clerics would have access to all simple spells, and to complex spells with either the [Positive Energy] or [Negative Energy](chose one) and the [Truename] descriptors, plus complex spells of one additional descriptor for each of the cleric's Domains.
ex2: Paladins and Rangers would have no spells, but instead they'd have access to Combat Rites starting lvl 4.
ex3: Complex Spells with the [Positive Energy] descriptor become the exclusive providence of the gods, becoming exclusive to Clerics and Druids.
... but still I feel something's amiss in giving each class' magic a unique feeling. I'd love to hear your ideas though, feel free to contact me, we might be able to work something better together. =)
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... but still I feel something's amiss in giving each class' magic a unique feeling. I'd love to hear your ideas though, feel free to contact me, we might be able to work something better together. =)
i need to check the rest of Arcangel post... but my idea is to make a comparison between spells of both games
i believe some of the spells in AU could just take the place of others spells in Pathfinder
but the rest would have to be converted
my idea was to decide with this what spells are simple of complex depending on how the spells converted into the classes list... and chosing which would become into simple, complex and exotic of teh converted ones depending on descriptions, utility, etc
there are some spells with a casting time of an immediate action, in PHB II I think and possibly a few other sources too, including featherfall from PHB part I.
I feel converting spells into immediate action variations on the fly would be too unbalancing towards other classes, unless the spell describes that as an action specifically and would raise the level of the spell accordingly.
it can't be that hard to design a few decent abjuration spells to do what you want them to do.
there are some spells with a casting time of an immediate action, in PHB II I think and possibly a few other sources too, including featherfall from PHB part I.
I feel converting spells into immediate action variations on the fly would be too unbalancing towards other classes, unless the spell describes that as an action specifically and would raise the level of the spell accordingly.
it can't be that hard to design a few decent abjuration spells to do what you want them to do.
Actually I am not sure I can agree with you without playtesting.
And instead of a higher level I wanted to balance it differently.
Hmm, maybe a metamagic feat that gives it that effect but raises the level by one and lowers the duration. Only works with defensive spells of range touch and those spells can only be cast on you. Spells like invisibility and improved invisibility would not be allowed to be changed.
Was thinking of somehow playing with those rules in FR but lack of clerics is a problem for a world of FR when Gods are the main movers and shakers of everything (and their minions).Precisely a friend and I have been fiddling for a while on how to adapt Arcana's magic to dnd/Pathfinder. One of the many ideas from our brainstorming is using spells' descriptors for asigning spells to classes.
ex: Clerics would have access to all simple spells, and to complex spells with either the [Positive Energy] or [Negative Energy](chose one) and the [Truename] descriptors, plus complex spells of one additional descriptor for each of the cleric's Domains.
ex2: Paladins and Rangers would have no spells, but instead they'd have access to Combat Rites starting lvl 4.
ex3: Complex Spells with the [Positive Energy] descriptor become the exclusive providence of the gods, becoming exclusive to Clerics and Druids.
... but still I feel something's amiss in giving each class' magic a unique feeling. I'd love to hear your ideas though, feel free to contact me, we might be able to work something better together. =)
I have went the path you take now (although I have not put anything on paper) but my conclusion was that it is too complicated since you will need to have at least two books for reference.
In the end the path I have chosen but not finished was to use classes and everything from Arcana Evolved, and only solve the D&D Cleric thing. Also races from FR would be used instead of the normal ones (and remove extra effects for spells based on now non-existent races).
as a Side note: I am all for paladins and rangers NOT having spells.
Tastes are tastes, I liked Arcana but I loved the world of the Diamond Throne, was part of your problem the fact that giants took the place of Humans as the dominant race?
Thing is though the reason Force powers work in thier setting is because of their inherent limitations, they're restricted to short term small scale battle effects almost entirely, There's no grandiose effects that are routinely castable, like Teleport, Mass Cure Critical etc. A magic system should either be flexible and lowkey or grandiose and complicated, the magic system you want is more suited to low low magic games like RuneQuest, Element Masters, etc.
The Giants were not the problem. I usually play FR and Diamond Throne just felt bland and empty to me. Probably one state with fair and good rulers is the problem. There is no conflict that you can base your adventures around. And basing all adventures around playing terrorist (anti Giant) or taking down terrorists (pro Giant) is not so much fun.
And other places in that world are undefined and I would need to improvise all.I rather improvise a place in FR within a defined state or area.
As for the 2nd part: I am not asking for all spells to be changed in a way I said. A selection of appropriate spells would need to be done.
I agree that spells like Teleport or Dimension Door (and even Invisibility and Greater version) cannont be allowed to ever be immediate actions because they would make spellcaster invulnerable as long as they had one of those prepared to escape at the last moment.
Spells I was talking about would be Mage Armor, Shield, Stoneskin, Protection From Energy and such.
I am one of those that didn't particularly care for 4th Edition. I don't have any problems with the game, I just like 3.5 and Pathfinder more. Then I picked up the Star Wars Saga System and fell in love with the force power rules. These rules, modified slightly, became the psionic rules for my game. And so far, they have been a hit. Concerning Arcana Evolved, I am also a fan of Monte's work. I used his magic system for awhile but it was just easier for my players to use the base 3.5 system. I did keep the Akashic (with some tweaks) and Unfettered as available classes.