A lot of people seem worried by the scrying spell, and seem to believe that when it becomes available they either have to nerf it or never allow other spells in conjuction with it, saying it is too powerful and creates a means of surgical striking that can't be countered.
This isn't true, it just shows people aren't paying attention to the rules governing the spell or other effects like it.
Stopping a Scryer:
First scrying allows a save throw and gives bonuses against it if the scryer doesn't have enough information about the target. (spell discription)
Please note the one hour casting time, and the fact that if the save is successful you can't scry again for that creature for 24 hours.
Next scrying is not discreet either, anyone with an Int score over 12 can spot a scrying sensor if they can succeed on DC 20 Intelligence check. If spotted then the sensor can also be dispelled.
"Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell."
Scrying is also completely stopped by lead, and magical protections.
"Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked"
Finally there is a limit on how much you see of the subject and the area around him too "If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject)."
SH&T happens...
The trick is not to target BBEG, but to start with a weak-minded creature in its vicinity (i.e. with intelligence below 12). Vermin are preferred.
Casting time is not of any special importance - there is no delay between displayed target creature activity and you, so there is always time to do SH&T (Scry, Haste and Teleport).
Finally, efficiency of magical protections is debatable - there are not many cheap and permanent wards against scrying. Actually, there are none in core rulebooks. So, your target would have to be either a king, high level wizard or just a wealthy paranoid person... or they're not protected.
Military commanders have it especially bad - dumb fighters on the move are sitting ducks usually for the purpose of SH&T.Regards,
Ruemere
The problem with targeting vermin is manyfold... simply put there's the whole "won't work thing" going on.
After all if you don't know the vermin you must have a connection to it to scry on it meaning a part of it in some form. Followed by the fact that scrying only gives a 10 foot radius on the target of scrying. The vermin in question would have to be just about on top of the true 'target' in order to allow the scryer to see them. You might be able to target a second in command person, but they still get a save, you might not scry them when they are near the real target and they may have some protections too.
Further more it says "magical protections"... protection from good is a magical protection...
Beyond that lead was used all the time in "olden" years precisely becuase it was cheap and easy to work, it isn't insane to think it would be a standard addition to an evil mastermind's HQ, as it could even be hidden in the walls. Same with lead paint.
Granted lead isn't always available but it's a sorry evil genius that doesn't have some idea that a scry/teleport might be in the works.
Finally with the room limit the BBEG (or anyone) could just keep his troupe of bodyguards 15 foot away. People tele in and get hit on multiple sides as they are vastly out numbered.
If the BBEG (or whatever) is a wizard and likes to scry themselves (and are of appropriate level) they could easily have a contingency teleport set for when someone teleports within 10 foot of them. My wizard is paranoid enough to do it.
Finally there is the question of if the target is on the same plane. Several players I know use McMansion spells for HQs, which are extra-planar. If the BBEG uses them too then the teleport will fail as it can't cross planar boundries.
Why don't we stop beating around the bush, cut out the middle man and dissapear the Divination school altogether while we're at it? I mean, it's full of abusive, overpowered spells... God forbids the characters find out things they aren't meant to, what do they think they are? Diviners?
Well I really like divination magic, it has tons of uses, finding friends to visit, looking in on the king's coronation (use a projector/illusion spell and the entire Inn can watch as if they are there... almost like a modern sporting even at a pub!), et al. I just think it's silly that people seem to think the BBEG is going to have a bunch of vermin around him, or be so vulnerable to such simple tactics.
There is just one relatively low-level core protection from scrying - Nondetection. It is quite expensive to keep up 24/7 and available mainly to wizards. Building hideouts with lead walls is useless, unless you don't plan to ever leave them or send trackable minions out (in which case your enemies have already won). Mainly, Scrying + Teleport means that spellcasters automatically destroy non-spellcasters that attempt to do anything but hiding (other spellcasters can have protection and actual ways to counter the threat of fully buffed mage that knows where you are and can get there in 6 seconds). As a mean of pure spying, Scrying is not that great (although if you took any measures to reduce the victim's save, it could work decently), the problem lies with the fact, that it allows you to teleport-blitz enemies. Note, how few creatures and places in prewritten adventures have any sort of protection against this sort of attacks.
1) Nondetection sucks. You're just spending cash every day to stave off the inevitable Scry-And-Die assault. Maybe we should axe the caster check and allow the spell to provide some actual protection from Scrying?
2) Screen is a powerful but vaguely worded spell. Is it just a beefed up Mirage Arcana spell? Can you disguise, conceal, or add creatures in its effect? Can you just cause people that scry in the affected area to view an illusion that's completely unrelated to the affected area (the scrying version of a 404 page?), or just see nothing but darkness? It would make damn fine scrying protection if it wasn't so open to interpretations and arguments. But right now, it's your only real defense to scrying right now.
Add Mind Blank (duration 24 hours, no cost)and we are even.
However, I fear that this post has already derailed too much...
EDIT:forget the last sentence, I thought for a moment we were talking on the 'Teleport' section... my fault.
D20 magic system lacks balanced defensive means.
Obligatory note: for balanced magic system, check Arcana Evolved.
The Arcana Evolved designation of open game content specifies the following as open: "the names, spell parameters (range, duration, etc.), and game mechanics of the spells in Chapter 9". So I think Pathfinder could borrow spell ideas from Arcana Evolved to fix the "scry and die" blitz problem. For example:
Unknown (3rd level spell): Requires opposed check to find target with divinations, DC +5 if cast on self. Lasts one hour/level.
Security (6th level spell): Protects area against divination and teleportation. Lasts one hour/level.
I remember another Monte Cook spell that allows you to trace the destination of someone's teleport spell. Also, Pathfinder already has the 4th level spell, Detect Scrying.
The only real problem I have with Scrying is that you can teleport to a place you have scried (even if you have no idea where in the world that place is). So I just eliminated the ability to do so -- in my game, scrying doesn't count as knowing anything about a place for teleport purposes.
The only real problem I have with Scrying is that you can teleport to a place you have scried (even if you have no idea where in the world that place is). So I just eliminated the ability to do so -- in my game, scrying doesn't count as knowing anything about a place for teleport purposes.
What about places that you know where they are?
Ex.: The kings private chambers; Dungeon rooms where you know part of the layout?
The only real problem I have with Scrying is that you can teleport to a place you have scried (even if you have no idea where in the world that place is). So I just eliminated the ability to do so -- in my game, scrying doesn't count as knowing anything about a place for teleport purposes.What about places that you know where they are?
Ex.: The kings private chambers; Dungeon rooms where you know part of the layout?
You can teleport to any place if you know where it is, as per the normal teleport rules. That has nothing to do with scrying.
Animal Messenger has several limits, including that you must know where it is going:
"including such creatures as familiars and animal companions.
Using some type of food desirable to the animal as a lure, you call the
animal to you. It advances and awaits your bidding. You can mentally
impress on the animal a certain place well known to you or an obvious landmark . The directions must be simple, because the animal depends on your knowledge and can’t find a destination on its own."
Other means of gaining vermin to obey have similar problems to the prying eyes spells.
Scrying only lasts a min a level which isn't enough time to get the "Studied Carefully" chart for teleporting in:
Familiarity: “Very familiar” is a place where you have been very often
and where you feel at home. “Studied carefully” is a place you know well, either because you can currently see it, you’ve been there often, or you have used other means (such as scrying) to study the place for at least 1 hour . “Seen casually” is a place that you have seen more than once but with which you are not very familiar. “Viewed once” is a place that you have seen once, possibly using magic .
Familiarity On Target Off Target Similar Area Mishap
Very familiar 01–97 98–99 100 —
Studied carefully 01–94 95–97 98–99 100
Seen casually 01–88 89–94 95–98 99–100
Viewed once 01–76 77–88 89–96 97–100
False destination (1d20+80) — — 81–92 93–100
Again loophole in defenses may exist, but that means the players probably aren't going to be teleporting in for a surgical strike, which is the whole point. To do so they have to hope they can at random pick the right time the target will be in the loophole area, have something there (within 10 ft of him) to scry on, and teleport in. A bit much to just assume they can succeed at.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I'm not saying it can't work sometimes (indeed it can be a clever plan and deserves a fair chance occassionally being the perfect tool for the job). But everytime as the only way of handling a problem? DM needs to back up and look at what he's doing becuase it isn't that reliable.
Contingency is not a strawman argument, it is a logical possibility when dealing with a wizard, I'm not saying it will always be in place or that everyone would have it, just it is a very real possibility.
Finally the scrying discription only says magical protection and Mage Armor is a magical protection as is protection from "x". Should have been more specific in what they wrote eh?
My final point is that this is not such a huge thing as it has been blown out of proportion to be. It can be a nice tactic when it comes together, but it shouldn't just be assumed to be available everytime.
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Teleport rules...
Thank you very much for bring this up. I can't believe the number of players (and DMs) who seem to believe that scrying a place means that they can teleport right there. You need to be viewing the same place for an hour just to have a good chance to land there. If the enemy is walking around and constantly changing location within a hide-out then this is nearly impossible.
However, I'm still left asking DMs the question of "so what?" So what if the PCs use high magic to catch the villains, thats kind of the point of the game, is it not? These threads remind me of a while back when people used to complain that spells like fly and dimension door made standard siege tactics impratical and useless. Many DMs later pointed out that in a world where those spells exist the castles would be built much differently and its up to the DMs to work around.
Honestly, if the scry&teleport tactic is really getting your goat, then nerf the spells in your homebrew, but please leave them alone in the core books for those of us that don't take offense to them.
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Four anti-scrying (and scry + teleport attack) defenses off the top of my head.
1) Amulet Of Proof Against Detection And Location.
Not quite as good as the spell, DC wise, but constantly active.
2)Mage's Private Sanctum. Sorcerer/wizard 5th level
Available at the same level as Teleport. Any important or secretive location should have this cast (and eventually made Permanent when available) on it at all times.
While MPS does not stop teleporting itself, it does make the scry and teleport quick strike much more difficult against specific locations or individuals within said locations.
3) Counter scrying. Have the bad guys scry on the good guys and learn their plans. (see next)
4) Awareness of scrying and teleporting tactics + the ability to discern scrying attempts + the results of counter scrying + the limitations of scrying = some pretty sweet chances to lay seriously deadly traps/ambushes.
Add Mind Blank (duration 24 hours, no cost)and we are even.
Mind Blank is a great spell if you're always on the move... but if you have a base of operations like a castle, a predictable travel schedule, or have lower-level followers, it isn't very helpful. Your enemies can always use your underlings as the target of their Scrying spells - they may not be able to see YOU during the Scrying, but the chances are good that if you see the Captain Of The Guard talking to a figure that is invisible or non-existant, they are probably talking to you.
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Add Mind Blank (duration 24 hours, no cost)and we are even.Mind Blank is a great spell if you're always on the move... but if you have a base of operations like a castle, a predictable travel schedule, or have lower-level followers, it isn't very helpful. Your enemies can always use your underlings as the target of their Scrying spells - they may not be able to see YOU during the Scrying, but the chances are good that if you see the Captain Of The Guard talking to a figure that is invisible or non-existant, they are probably talking to you.
First, the assumption that if the underling is talking to someone invisible must mean they are talking to the real target of your scry attempt requires a huge leap of faith. I mean there couldn't possibly be any other individuals using anti-scrying magic out there, could there?
Second, that's why Detect Scrying is useful. "You know the location of every magical sensor within the spell’s area." Scrying on my underling? Oh yeah, there is the sensor right there. I guess I won't discuss anything relevant with you at this time.
Third, that's why Mage's Private Sanctum is useful. Blocks all scrying at specific locations. So you can't scry on my underling while we are holed up in our castle/lair/whatever anyways.
Fourth, other spells/magic items/tactics/strategies etc. that foil scrying as already discussed above.
Finally, why is it every time someone is scrying, it is at the exact moment the BBEG is revealing his plans, out loud, to his sub-ordinates? Why isn't the BBEG eating lunch or sitting on the can during the scry attempt? I know that if I felt it necessary to discuss my evil plans for world domination with an underling I would do so only under the above protections and at a time that some nosy do gooders would most likely be sleeping. Or better yet at time they would most likely be preparing spells, like say, at dawn.
I suspect that you'd see the usage of a great deal of "sheet lead" in the construction of important buildings in Pathfinder campaigns. We use this construction technique today in sound studios to block outside noise and within X-Ray rooms to keep radiation from seeping out into the surrounding area. Architects in Golarion could use "sheet lead" to build structures that are immune to scrying that would not pose health hazards to the occupants.
You would also see a proliferation of lead glass windows (possibly reinforced with the Glassteel spell). The lead oxide content (12-28%) of lead glass is sufficient to reduce the transmission of radiation (it is used today in X-Ray machines and CRT monitors) and would certainly be sufficient to block scrying sensors. That being said, I don't see the Glassteel spell listed in either the PRPG rules or the 3.5 SRD - was it removed during the transition from AD&D 2nd Edition to the 3.0 SRD?
Alas, this would not prevent people from teleporting into a stronghold or coming in via Ethereal Jaunt. But it would force invaders to waste valuable time using traditional reconnaissance methods to determine the layout of a complex before beaming in for an assault. And given the fact that Sorcerers, Wizards, and Bards (to a much lesser extent) are the only classes that have effective magical counters to Scrying, this would give other classes a solid defense against scrying. The only two classes that end up holding the bag are Rangers and Druids (since they probably won't be dwelling in lead-lined strongholds). I would still recommend that Nondetection gets beefed up a bit, and that Druids should be able to memorize and cast this spell.
I would also like to suggest that the rules for teleportation and scrying be modified so that these spells are blocked by at least 30 feet of solid material such as dirt, stone, ice, and the like. This would actually give people a reason to take up residence in a dungeon. As it stands right now, dungeons are little more then deathtraps. Not only can people just burrow/teleport/ethereal jaunt into your complex, but you have very limited options to escape your own complex, and your enemies can just send the roof crashing in on your head if they really want to.
First, the assumption that if the underling is talking to someone invisible must mean they are talking to the real target of your scry attempt requires a huge leap of faith. I mean there couldn't possibly be any other individuals using anti-scrying magic out there, could there?
When scrying on someone, you can see and hear the subject's surroundings. An intelligent scryer should be able to deduce who the subject is speaking with based on the context of what the subject is saying. I also don't think that it's a huge leap of faith to assume that if you're scrying on the underling of an 18th level character that owns a stronghold, the person that is most likely to have anti-scrying magic active is probably the owner of the stronghold.
Second, that's why Detect Scrying is useful. "You know the location of every magical sensor within the spell’s area." Scrying on my underling? Oh yeah, there is the sensor right there. I guess I won't discuss anything relevant with you at this time.
What if you are a character that has access to a Mind Blank effect, but does not have access to the Detect Scrying spell? Like say for example a high-level Rogue with a Greenstone Amulet, or a Psionic character with the Mind Blank Psionic power? These characters won't necessarily be able to detect scrying attempts made against them.
Third, that's why Mage's Private Sanctum is useful. Blocks all scrying at specific locations. So you can't scry on my underling while we are holed up in our castle/lair/whatever anyways.
Not everyone can cast this spell. For some characters, Nondetection or Mind Blank are as good as it gets in the "anti-scrying" spell department.
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First, the assumption that if the underling is talking to someone invisible must mean they are talking to the real target of your scry attempt requires a huge leap of faith. I mean there couldn't possibly be any other individuals using anti-scrying magic out there, could there?...
We could keep this back and forth up forever and not really solve anything.
Why doesn't your "18th level character" have access to any spell casting services? How did they get to be 18th level given that major disadvantage? Sure they might not be able to cast anti-scrying spells themselves but I would hope they would have the resources have it cast for them.
What if...this.
What if...that.
...so on and so forth.
Of more relevance to me, is why did you stop short of addressing my additional points? Most notably my final point?
Ultimately, it is the GM's duty to reveal as much or as little of the relevant plot points of any adventure via scrying or other divinations. While a well thought out set of divinations and scrys should result in some reward, handing over the entire adventure to a "short cut" is just bad GMing. Scry is only as powerful as the GM lets it be.
Just because an adventure does not take into account the abilities of the PC's doesn't mean that you, as the GM, can't correct that oversight. You are weaving an interactive story that hopefully challenges the players involved. Ultimately, these challenges are all designed to be overcome by one means or another. That is the point. Your job is to make sure it is not too easy or too hard. Sometimes players will fail, usually to poor planning or unlucky rolls or what not. Mostly (hopefully) they succeed. If you remove the risk of failure, you ruin the reward. Same thing goes for making things too easy by divulging too much too easily. By all means reward intelligent play, but not sloppy adventure design or weak GMing.
As far as scrying goes, I am fine with the RAW. IMO there are plenty of limitations as well as options to combat scrying, available, both for PCs and NPCs alike.
As far as Scry + Teleport goes, I would not have any problem with Teleport getting nerfed a bit, or a lot for that matter (say, maybe limiting teleport destinations to places you have already physically visited, similar to Word of Recall, but able to go more places and both ways).
Finally, (and this is way off the original threads purpose) arguments centered on the premise that some spells etc. make the "world" unrealistic seem a little odd to me. If you actually sat back and thought of a "world" that was the result of the RAW, I don't believe it would have any resemblance to any setting currently in use, Golarion or otherwise. A world that has multiple living gods. A world with magic more powerful than modern technology. A world populated by the variety of powerful and fantastical creatures etc. found in the rule books is still stuck in a mostly "medieval" setting? With farmers tilling the soil? People riding horse drawn carts? Living in ramshackle wood buildings and castles? It would never happen given all that. We would have to rewrite everything.
We choose to use a fantasy setting because it appeals to us. The entire system relies on the fact that things are the way they are because we want them that way, not because the rules would make it happen that way. We don't need lead lined buildings. Dungeons are a means to confine the order of the adventure. Castles exist because we want them to, not because they would actually prove useful in fending off dragons and high level wizards. So on and so on. When GMs allow rules to dictate alone, you get things like dungeon tunneling, players cutting through walls with swords and the like. And that is not right in my world.
Nowhere in the description of Scry does it state that it always results in relevant information being ascertained. Limit the type and amount of information available and you limit the spell. Pretty simple, no?
Anyways, I'm tired and blathering like a fool. I hope I made some sense.
Cheers.
Why doesn't your "18th level character" have access to any spell casting services? How did they get to be 18th level given that major disadvantage? Sure they might not be able to cast anti-scrying spells themselves but I would hope they would have the resources have it cast for them.
Because not every group of 18th level characters is necessarily going to have an arcane spellcaster or easy access to one? Not every player wants to play a wizard, and not every campaign is like the Forgotten Realms or Eberron where the services of Wizards can be bought and sold like a commodity in the village square.
Of more relevance to me, is why did you stop short of addressing my additional points? Most notably my final point?
Because I was originally talking about the shortcomings of Mind Blank, Nondetection, and Screen? But since you insist, I'll address your final two points:
In regards to your fourth point:
1) The Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location is just as bad as Nondetection - you're just delaying the inevitable Scry-And-Die assault from Team Monster.
2) If you don't have an arcane spellcaster in your party, you can't use this spell.
3) In my experience, the bad guys are usually the ones to initiate Scry-And-Die attacks and the players are the ones that suffer the most from them. Everyone knows who the adventurers are, who their associates are, and where their stomping grounds are. It doesn't take very long for Team Monster to figure out what the players are doing, and when they do beam in, they are more then happy to take hostages, slaughter innocents, and loot or destroy indiscriminately in the process of trying to take the players out.
4) Not every party can detect scrying, initiate scrying attempts themselves, or block scrying altogether. Sometimes only some of these tools are available. Sometimes none of them are available.
And in regards to your final point: I realize that this isn't an episode of Thundercats where the party casts a scrying spell and watches as Mumm-Ra tells the Mutants about his latest plan to get the Sword Of Omens from Lion-O. The fact of the matter is that players usually have to perform a good bit of scrying over a long period of time to gather a decent amount of information regarding the BBEG and/or their stronghold. On the other hand, the BBEG only has to focus their scrying efforts on a group of 4 to 6 people and their immediate associates, and they usually have minions on hand to deploy for traditional surveillance operations as well. Unless you have a Wizard or a Sorcerer with Mage's Private Sanctum or a Bard with Detect Scrying, the party isn't necessarily going to realize when they are being scryed on, and they more then likely won't see it coming when Team Monster pops out of the blue and starts melting their faces. Players usually have more to fear from Scry-And-Die then their opponents do.
We choose to use a fantasy setting because it appeals to us. The entire system relies on the fact that things are the way they are because we want them that way, not because the rules would make it happen that way. We don't need lead lined buildings. Dungeons are a means to confine the order of the adventure. Castles exist because we want them to, not because they would actually prove useful in fending off dragons and high level wizards. So on and so on. When GMs allow rules to dictate alone, you get things like dungeon tunneling, players cutting through walls with swords and the like. And that is not right in my world.
Most D&D campaigns may be set in worlds with a medevial feel to them, but anyone that wants to hold onto any degree of power in these campaign worlds are going to have to adapt to the strategies that the rules allow for or else they will perish. You want to build a castle or a keep? That's fine and dandy, but if you're not a spellcaster and you don't want to get murdered by a Scry-And-Die, you'd better either 1) be really good friends with a spellcaster or 2) invest heavily in lead. And I don't see any point in dwelling in a dungeon when people can just cast Earthquake or (depending on the campaign setting) use explosives to bring down the whole complex on your head. But being immune to scrying, teleports, and gates? That just might make it worth the risk.
If you don't try and address things like these and come up with logical reasons why people would still bother building castles or dwelling in dungoeons, you end up with players and GMs following the rules to the logical extremes and subverting the entire campaign world. It's better to sit down and figure out how the rules can break the campaign world and create a remedy instead of sticking our collective heads in the sand and trying to deny that Star Trek-style raiding parties are a very real possibility in a world with High Magic.
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I think that you might be missing my point altogether. Maybe that is my fault. Let's get back on track for a second. This thread was about scrying, so let's focus on that.
Just so I am clear about my understanding of your position in regards to nerfing scry (and other divination spells), let me see if I get this straight. It would seem to me that you are advocating amendments to Scry in the official Pathfinder rules, that "everyone" uses, to conform to a highly restrictive, specialized and personal home campaign of yours? A high level, low fantasy campaign with no arcane spell casters as PCs (or apparently, for that matter, as underlings, henchmen, or wizards for hire), but with an arcane spell caster (or casters) as your apparent arch nemesis? One that focuses all his/her attentions and resources to seeking out your players, and your players alone, in a supposedly fully fleshed out campaign world? A campaign run by an apparently highly adversarial and vindictive GM?
Is that the basis for your argument? Or have I missed something?
Using such restrictive parameters with which to judge a set of rules is more than a little suspect IMO. The rules are written for the average player campaign. As such the rules are merely a starting point. While we all want to be playing roughly the same game, that is rarely the case. House rules are just as much a part of the game as the official rules are. If you want to nerf Scry and the like in your home game, go for it, but I don't think they need nerfing in Pathfinder in general. Nerfing Scry for everyone is like me advocating nerfing all spells that require Will saves, just because everyone plays only fighter types in my home game.
Truth be told, scrying spells are designed to be mostly player-centric, while anti-scrying spells are mostly "monster"-centric. This game we play is told almost exclusively from the perspective of the player(s). You usually don't get to see the bit in the story where the evil wizard uses his crystal ball to spy on the players because we aren't watching a movie or reading a novel. The GM is omniscient, and as such doesn't need spells to explain what the monsters know or don't know or when and how they decide to attack. The GM "sets the stage" as they see fit. The biggest reason scry defenses are present in the spell lists are for when player's use scry. When/if their attempt fails, there needs to be some preconceived explanaion that it could fail due to anti-scrying spells/defenses, rather than the GM flat out stating that it failed with no reason (although they aren't required to explain everything to the players anyways).
Scry is merely a plot device, and one of many avenues that the players can utilize in an attempt to gather information. The GM then decides what relevant information should be available based on the goals as set out by the adventure, campaign or what not. Scry is only as powerful as your GM lets it be.
If your GM really wants to use "Scry-And-Die" or other equally deadly tactics against his players, he/she can do so no matter what defenses you do or don't have available and regardless of what the rules/spells say. If they want to TPK, there is nothing you as a player can do to stop it. They can send wave after wave, or simply drop an over powering adversary right in your lap at the worst possible time. That is not how I, and I hope many others, would GM a game. Your recourse versus this type of GM is refusing to let that person GM in the future.
Cheers
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Once upon a time I have committed a few spells to solve certain problems with Divinations. Maybe someone could find this little article useful:
Protection from Astral Travel, Resurrections, Scrying and Divinations in GeneralRegards,
Ruemere
Reading with interest...
It would seem to me that you are advocating amendments to Scry in the official Pathfinder rules, that "everyone" uses, to conform to a highly restrictive, specialized and personal home campaign of yours? A high level, low fantasy campaign with no arcane spell casters as PCs (or apparently, for that matter, as underlings, henchmen, or wizards for hire), but with an arcane spell caster (or casters) as your apparent arch nemesis?
As the rules stand right now, you MUST have either a Bard or a Wizard in your party to adequately defend yourself from Scry-And-Die attacks. You can have a party that is chock-full of powerful spell-slinging Clerics and Druids and you still don't have any real defenses against Scry-And-Die assaults. You'll be able to weather them better then a party of "non-magical" characters, but it won't be a cakewalk by any means.
And once again - unless you're in a High Magic campaign where magical services are easily obtained, you're not going to have the daily access to the spells that you need to secure yourself against Scry-And-Die attacks. And guess what? Not every gaming group wants to play in a High Magic campaign, even if they have arcane spellcasters in the party.
I also find it ironic that you censure me for viewing the rules from the perspective of someone playing in a high level, low magic campaign, but you find no fault in examining the rules from the perspective of a high level, high magic campaign. Not everyone is playing in a campaign world like the Forgotten Realms or Eberron where every adventurer looks like a Christmas Tree whenever you cast Detect Magic on them.
And even if you are in a High Magic campaign, I don't think it's unreasonable to advocate that dungeons have some kind of anti-magical defenses that makes them desirable lairs for villains. Nor do I believe that I am being remiss in encouraging people to take advantage of the properties of lead to secure their strongholds against scrying. The anti-scrying properties of lead are already in the rules - I'm simply offering up a better way to implement its usage then "paint your house with lead paint and die from heavy metal poisoning".
One that focuses all his/her attentions and resources to seeking out your players, and your players alone, in a supposedly fully fleshed out campaign world? A campaign run by an apparently highly adversarial and vindictive GM?
I'm not sure what kind of campaign you play in, but in our games, when you cross swords with Team Monster, they use all of the tools at their disposal and they play to win. Based on your previous posts, I get the notion that you're more interested in maintaining the "fantasy feel" of your game as opposed to encouraging players and GMs alike to use the tools at their disposal to accomplish their goals - even if it violate fantasy tropes. My problem is that I don't think that there are enough tools for non-spellcasters to deal with Scry-And-Die assaults in the game at this time. Why on earth would you find castles ruled over by warlords and knights in a fantasy world when they can be scryed on and assaulted with impunity by spellcasters? I understand that you want to keep castles and dungeons in your campaign - we are at least in agreement on this point - but when I sit down and ask myself if these would really be structures that anyone would want to inhabit in anything but a Low Magic game, I can't really reasonably justify it to myself.
Truth be told, scrying spells are designed to be mostly player-centric, while anti-scrying spells are mostly "monster"-centric.
This is what you claim, but I believe that this is a fallacy, and I have explained my reasons for believing this is so in my previous posts. It's much easier for an intelligent spellcasting monster - backed by an organization of lesser villains - to implement Scry-And-Die tactics against players then the other way around. You speak of Scrying as a plot device to advance a narrative, but its potent military uses - especially in the hands of the bad guys - simply cannot be denied.
Nerfing Scry for everyone is like me advocating nerfing all spells that require Will saves, just because everyone plays only fighter types in my home game.
Oh wait, my bad. You are already doing that in another thread.
;)
I believe that Enchantment/Charm spells that allow you to take control of opponents in combat are overpowered and need to be fixed. Pathfinder has already fixed a number of the other Save-Or-Die spells in the game; I'd like to see them finish the job before the Beta ends. I also believe that spells that inflict status effects such as Feeblemind, Blindness, Fear, and the like also need to be fixed. Although many people complain about the ability of Wizards to deliver large amounts of AOE damage in short periods of time, these spells are actually much more significant in determining why Wizards are considered to be the definitive Tier 1 class and non-spellcasters rank as Tier 3 or 4 characters (at best). I do not think that these they are balanced, and I don't believe that I am alone in my thinking on this matter.
Try Gorgon's Blood, I remember reading in some book (cant remember which at the moment) that it has the same affect as lead when mixed into the mortar of a building.
Something like this could be used as an alternative to spells, and provide the players with a bit of a sidequest as they gather the relevant "Monster parts" to use in their construction project.
Try Gorgon's Blood, I remember reading in some book (cant remember which at the moment) that it has the same affect as lead when mixed into the mortar of a building.
Something like this could be used as an alternative to spells, and provide the players with a bit of a sidequest as they gather the relevant "Monster parts" to use in their construction project.
Alas, that was just for ethereal creatures. That being said, having some in the mortar of the stone you use for your House Of Lead isn't exactly a bad idea either!