I like your suggestion but it may be too powerful a change for Divine Favor. A cleric with the Nobility domain is going to end up with 10 swift Divine Favors per day. Might just make it a very attractive choice for a player.
Doug
This might be a good idea. Usually the rules exist for the DM to figure out exactly how much time is taken, but most (wisely) choose to make a judgement call rather than look up how long certain actions took and calculate how long the rogue took searching the room.
It might be simpler to categorically change 1min/lvl spells to be 2min/lvl. The idea behind round/lvl is to make duration very short, where every moment counts. The idea behind min/lvl is to make a spell last an encounter or maybe two if they're back-to-back. 10min/lvl is designed to let players either have an extended romp through a dungeon or to buff up before doing something tactical like sneaking. 1hr/lvl is meant for long-term buffs.
So kill the sacred "1" cow and go "2". It scales twice as fast (obviously) but doesn't break the purpose.
"Can I get back to the downstairs room, drag the ladder we found there back, rig a rope around it, lower it to the bottom of this pit, climb down, then set it on fire, before my spell runs out?"
If the spell's got 8 minutes on it instead of 4, the judgment call is that much easier.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Well part of this is a strictly DM task of tracking time. Tactical to Local speeds aren't something a Player thinks of (cause they rarely really read the adventuring chapter of the PHB). A Player thinks in terms of my speed is 30 and I can move 60'/ round for the whole dungeon, when moving from the surface ruins to the sea cavern below by the natural rock stairway actually drops to minutes and this is where a DM needs to be thought conscious about his dungeon design.
If he wants several short encounters where PC can use 1 min/lvl buffs then he needs to make the distance between encounters smaller. If he wants a buff to be gone or used for a specific purpose then he makes the distance longer.
For example the PC's are searching for the Monastary of Fire in the Forbidden Mountains but it sits at the top of a 1,000 foot cliff. You know they have Fly potions which last 5 minutes. So the Cliff will eat up 2 minutes of their duration. If you want to throw an encounter with Yetis at the top you know they'll be able to stay away from them and use ranged attacks and spells, so you decide to wait on the Yetis and throw a Wyvern at them instead. This will eat up at least another minute of their Fly spell. They then enter the Monastary where you have a Skill based obstacle waiting, a flaming pit with stone pillars to jump on. With about a minute or so of Fly left it won't be much of an Obstacle so you put a short ice maze in between and use your Yeti encounter. Now with their Fly duration gone they'll have to negotiate the Skill obstacle to retrieve the Heart of Fire ruby.
--I wanna Vrock! VROCK!
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I would like to voice my opinion that buff spells should go back to 1 HOUR/level like they were in 3.0
There are two reasons why I think this is a very good idea.
First, most buff spells, but not all, are cast by clerics. One of the problems for clerics is that they spend all their time in combat healing and buffing and essentially being medics. By allowing them to get Bull's Strength out of the way early, they are able to actually contribute to the party in combat other than just BUFF BUFF HEAL HEAL BUFF HEAL HEAL. They would at least get some time to get some offensive spells off before going all medic.
Second, casters are notorious for the 15 minute adventure day. By making buff spells last for hours instead of minutes a caster only needs to prepare a buff spell once per day instead of 2-3 times, allowing him to prepare other useful spells. The more useful spells the casters have the longer they can last before needing a break for the day.
I think that between allowing buff spells to last longer, and no longer charging XP to make items, like scrolls, casters should no longer have any reason to need a 15 minute adventuring day.
We have long ignored minute/level and used hour/level instead. It by no means was a game breaking change, in fact it made both our cleric and fighter better and more useful. The few times we tried the minute/level we all noticed a decrease in contributions by both the cleric and the fighter, and noticed a need to rest much more often.
Well part of this is a strictly DM task of tracking time. Tactical to Local speeds aren't something a Player thinks of (cause they rarely really read the adventuring chapter of the PHB). A Player thinks in terms of my speed is 30 and I can move 60'/ round for the whole dungeon, when moving from the surface ruins to the sea cavern below by the natural rock stairway actually drops to minutes and this is where a DM needs to be thought conscious about his dungeon design.
If he wants several short encounters where PC can use 1 min/lvl buffs then he needs to make the distance between encounters smaller. If he wants a buff to be gone or used for a specific purpose then he makes the distance longer.
For example the PC's are searching for the Monastary of Fire in the Forbidden Mountains but it sits at the top of a 1,000 foot cliff. You know they have Fly potions which last 5 minutes. So the Cliff will eat up 2 minutes of their duration. If you want to throw an encounter with Yetis at the top you know they'll be able to stay away from them and use ranged attacks and spells, so you decide to wait on the Yetis and throw a Wyvern at them instead. This will eat up at least another minute of their Fly spell. They then enter the Monastary where you have a Skill based obstacle waiting, a flaming pit with stone pillars to jump on. With about a minute or so of Fly left it won't be much of an Obstacle so you put a short ice maze in between and use your Yeti encounter. Now with their Fly duration gone they'll have to negotiate the Skill obstacle to retrieve the Heart of Fire ruby.
--I wanna Vrock! VROCK!
Unfortunately this is the type of thing that will sometimes get a player screaming "you are screwing us". On one hand the DM is making an adventure trying to make it challenging and it is quite possible the characters do something really unexpected. Now to keep the challenge the DM has to scrabble and rearrange. On the other hand the characters might have gone through and done the leg work to figure out what lay ahead and prepare appropriately. Now because of some last minute preparations the characters made the scenario is a walk in the park unless things change... And if they do change the characters might feel like they were cheated. It is a balancing act, one with which someone is usually going to be kinda disappointed.
As for the spells, I don't think a minute is a good idea. When they introduced the majority of the swift action spells they were 1 round and with pretty good reason as they were powerful. The 1 minute/level spells are exactly like the above poster mentioned, spells that last long enough to get you through 1 or 2 (or possibly 3 or 4 actually) encounters. Spending a standard action to cast a spell that will last for several minutes doesn't strike me as too much of an investment for something that has a decent return.
As it is I know in our group the cleric was pushing to get as much done as we could to make the best use of his buff spells when we were running around a certain haunted mansion in an adventure path we played. As soon as one encounter was taken care of out the door he went to scan the next room. As soon as the map was out with the floor plan you could see him counting the squares so he had an idea of how long it would take to get around the building. That is best case, worst case is when you are running around the caverns or overland, you have to expect to take some time getting around so as a player playing a spell caster you need to decide when it is best to cast those spells. That is much less "how bad does the DM want to screw you" and much more "how stupid of a player are you" or "how bad of a choice did you make" in those situations.
Then again maybe your stance is that casting a buff spell shouldn't cost you an action because it is keeping you from doing something else that round and that is why you want them to be swift actions. That would cater even more to the 15 minute workday, blowing off 2 spells around at even low levels. It would also completely kill the metamagic feat quicken which seems to be on its last legs as is with all the swift spells there are out there. Limiting the buff spells to just 1 minute kinda takes away from their utility as well, Bull's Strength isn't just used for the +2 hit/damage. It can be used to help break open a door or to carry a heavier load (a knocked out PC?) or any number of other things that depend on your str score. For that reason alone I would hope that they didn't follow the OP's suggestion.
There are plenty time tracking tools available for both DMs and players to use these days (actually past few years) that keeping track of spell effects in action should be a minor issue.
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not every spell with 1min/level should change
but the attribute buffs should at least become 10 min/level... but it would be better if they returned like 3.0 where they where 1d4 +1 to attribute and 1 hour / level
i much preffer spellcaster busting themselves and their allies for the day than overstuffing characters with magic gear
Dudes! Cake and eat it!
Jason isn't going to be changing spell durations because player's want more cake! You can have more cake, but you're just going to have to level first :)
Hmm, I'm kinda with you. As a player I want those 1 min/level spells to last and last, but as a DM I have first hand experience of the 15 minute day problems that level 10+ PC's can gain from 1 min/level spells.
" Duration: one Encounter " looks horribly like 4th edition language which is a little disturbing, and it pains me to say, that in some cases it would probably work very well, however I'd like to know what others think.
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Dudes! Cake and eat it!
Jason isn't going to be changing spell durations because player's want more cake! You can have more cake, but you're just going to have to level first :)
that is exactly WHY we use 3.0 magic in our games... 3.5 is dead thing that doesn't account to magic at all
Out of Combat Uses: 1 minute/level generally isn't enough for significant out of combat use anyway. Raising your strength to give you more carrying capacity just isn't going to last long enough for you to care. On the other hand, 1 minute fixed duration is easily enough time to try to bash down a troublesome door, or get a bonus for a skill check. Really, I can't think of any use for the spells that a 1 minute/level duration can do easily that a 1 minute duration couldn't. Among the few spells that you would want to use as utility, like alter self, a 1 minute/level duration is too short anyway. And those spells fall into the category that I thought should be increased to 10 min/level and keep the standard action casting time. Alter self as a 1 min/level spell is just a joke. It's no longer a combat buff in PF, and it's more likely to be used as a disguise spell. Of course you really can't infiltrate much with a spell that's going to drop in a few minutes. And if you want a good utility spell, it needs to last at least 10 minutes/level, if not 1 hour/level. 1 minute/level utility magic is a joke.
this is exactly my complain
the game is becoming more and more just combat orientedmost uses are useless for anything else that is not combat... and that is in terms of fantasy useless and ridiculous...
Jason and the rest are supposed to be basing themselves in classic fantasy and pulp era stories? then way give us spells that are nothing but pure videogame style?
Hmm, I'm kinda with you. As a player I want those 1 min/level spells to last and last, but as a DM I have first hand experience of the 15 minute day problems that level 10+ PC's can gain from 1 min/level spells.
" Duration: one Encounter " looks horribly like 4th edition language which is a little disturbing, and it pains me to say, that in some cases it would probably work very well, however I'd like to know what others think.
that is exactly why i prefer the use of 3.0 magic it still had something akin of life...
3.5 magic is the only faillure i see in Pathfinder in general, the shools, bloodlines & domains are great new things
you might want to try fixed durations for some spells.
for the bull's strength and other stat spells 1 hour might work well, it's a bit more lively than just having + 4 strength.
you might play around with popular spells a bit, maybe prepare it as 10 minute duration as 2nd level spell and 1 hour as 3rd level spell.
Remco a 1 hour buff might be just the thing here actually. Nice thought.
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15 minute workday: The 15 minute workday is going to be a problem in some games and not a problem in others. Pathfinder has no real control for the 15 minute workday at all, and therefore people who want to abuse it are going to. This change isn't going to make it better or worse. In fact, it's probably going to be worse without this change, because PCs don't want to cast these spells during combat, therefore the tendency is to try to guess when combat will begin and cast them right outside the room, thereby prebuffing. But people who play by the 15 minute workday are still going to do so regardless of the change. So long as players have daily abilities at all, the 15 minute workday is going to be a problem.
Actually, if you change the buff spells to be hour/level you CAN make major strides to avoiding the 15 minute adventure day.
The primary reason for the 15 minute day is simply running out of useful spells. If a cleric only has to prepare one Bull's Strength per day, knowing that one casting is likely to last through any encounters for the day, he gets 1-2 spells slots to use for other spells. The Wizard doesn't have to prepare 2-3 Cat's Grace spells for the Rogue any more and can prepare a couple extra spells. It all adds up to getting an extra 1-2 encounters easily.
:) So we go from 15 minute days to 30 minute days :)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Unfortunately this is the type of thing that will sometimes get a player screaming "you are screwing us". On one hand the DM is making an adventure trying to make it challenging and it is quite possible the characters do something really unexpected. Now to keep the challenge the DM has to scrabble and rearrange. On the other hand the characters might have gone through and done the leg work to figure out what lay ahead and prepare appropriately. Now because of some last minute preparations the characters made the scenario is a walk in the park unless things change... And if they do change the characters might feel like they were cheated. It is a balancing act, one with which someone is usually going to be kinda disappointed.Well part of this is a strictly DM task of tracking time. Tactical to Local speeds aren't something a Player thinks of (cause they rarely really read the adventuring chapter of the PHB). A Player thinks in terms of my speed is 30 and I can move 60'/ round for the whole dungeon, when moving from the surface ruins to the sea cavern below by the natural rock stairway actually drops to minutes and this is where a DM needs to be thought conscious about his dungeon design.
If he wants several short encounters where PC can use 1 min/lvl buffs then he needs to make the distance between encounters smaller. If he wants a buff to be gone or used for a specific purpose then he makes the distance longer.
For example the PC's are searching for the Monastary of Fire in the Forbidden Mountains but it sits at the top of a 1,000 foot cliff. You know they have Fly potions which last 5 minutes. So the Cliff will eat up 2 minutes of their duration. If you want to throw an encounter with Yetis at the top you know they'll be able to stay away from them and use ranged attacks and spells, so you decide to wait on the Yetis and throw a Wyvern at them instead. This will eat up at least another minute of their Fly spell. They then enter the Monastary where you have a Skill based obstacle waiting, a flaming pit with stone pillars to jump on. With about a minute or so of Fly left it won't be much of an Obstacle so you put a short ice maze in between and use your Yeti encounter. Now with their Fly duration gone they'll have to negotiate the Skill obstacle to retrieve the Heart of Fire ruby.
--I wanna Vrock! VROCK!
Well there is the chance that the player will have more than one fly potion or spell and yes that will make the adventure easier, but as the DM it's your job to make an adventure that takes the abilities of the Players into account. It's not screwing the players, it's how the game is built. How else do you write an effective adventure if you completely ignore the capabilities of a PC of x level with access to spells like fly, teleport, scry, etc. Good aventure/encounter design takes those factors into consideration. At mid to high levels 1 min/level spells are good for at least two encounters in a contained setting (urban, dungeon) and probably only one in open locations (wilderness).
As for the time to search and loot, the times are all there (if a little spread out through the rules). Stripping armor takes minutes in general, searching a body and rifling through their gear is likely a full round action per creature, recovering ammo (yeah some players do it), etc.
--Detroit Vrock City!
[Actually, if you change the buff spells to be hour/level you CAN make major strides to avoiding the 15 minute adventure day.
The primary reason for the 15 minute day is simply running out of useful spells. If a cleric only has to prepare one Bull's Strength per day, knowing that one casting is likely to last through any encounters for the day, he gets 1-2 spells slots to use for other spells. The Wizard doesn't have to prepare 2-3 Cat's Grace spells for the Rogue any more and can prepare a couple extra spells. It all adds up to getting an extra 1-2 encounters easily.
:) So we go from 15 minute days to 30 minute days :)
I'm kind of with you Krome. In my experience, the 15MWD is mostly a product of parties wanting to re-boot before every encounter. They get themselves buffed and ready, break open that door and... empty. Ten minutes of sneaking around later they find another door. Do they push on through? Of course not - time to re-boot again for that fresh, fully-buffed-and-spelled feeling you only get with a night's rest.
Having buffs pretty much work all day would be fine by me, frees up spell slots, less admin, fewer re-boots.
As a DM you can set encounters up all you like to prevent re-boots (re-stocking and re-booting the monsters, patrols, all that stuff) but if you do you end up running adventures that are exercises in meta-game design at the expense of story, suspense, excitement...
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not every spell with 1min/level should change
but the attribute buffs should at least become 10 min/level... but it would be better if they returned like 3.0 where they where 1d4 +1 to attribute and 1 hour / level
i much preffer spellcaster busting themselves and their allies for the day than overstuffing characters with magic gear
Agreed 110%.
Personally I stick with Monte Cook's proposal for alternative duration on buff spells, which he publised in his blog some time ago:
Instead of 1d4+1 or +4 (or whatever current version of spells give, can care less), the spell only gives +2, but lasts 24 hours. Alternatively, over the course of the 24 hours the user of the spell can choose to "burn it up", getting a one-time +8 bonus on his next ability-related check... functional enough, and magical enough. Monte ftw.
Agreed 110%.not every spell with 1min/level should change
but the attribute buffs should at least become 10 min/level... but it would be better if they returned like 3.0 where they where 1d4 +1 to attribute and 1 hour / level
i much preffer spellcaster busting themselves and their allies for the day than overstuffing characters with magic gear
You agree, Montalve agrees, I agree... then again, not gonna happen. Insisting on proposing changes we all not are not meant to be is an exercise in futility and overall recipe for frustration. Beta is nearly done, so except for the further one-dimensionalization of a couple spells in the book, what we're seeing here is pretty much the finished product. Love the game as-is, and whatever you don't like just houserule it, just don't frustrate yourselves over pointless arguements.
I don't have a problem with 1 minute per level spells.
In my experience, the 15MWD is mostly a product of parties wanting to re-boot before every encounter. They get themselves buffed and ready, break open that door and... empty. Ten minutes of sneaking around later they find another door. Do they push on through? Of course not - time to re-boot again for that fresh, fully-buffed-and-spelled feeling you only get with a night's rest.
Why do a lot of people think that they need to always have buffs up for every fight? My group usually saves their buffs for what they expect will be major fights. Yes, this does mean that sometimes that they do fight the main villain without a large number of buffs.
Having buffs pretty much work all day would be fine by me, frees up spell slots, less admin, fewer re-boots.
You still have to deal with dispel magic and other such effects. And I think that those will get used much more often if all the buff spells work all day.
As a DM you can set encounters up all you like to prevent re-boots (re-stocking and re-booting the monsters, patrols, all that stuff) but if you do you end up running adventures that are exercises in meta-game design at the expense of story, suspense, excitement...
As a player, you can't expect to be able to go buffed up for every encounter. It is an exercises in meta-game design at the expense of story, suspense, excitement...
I don't have a problem with 1 minute per level spells.Why do a lot of people think that they need to always have buffs up for every fight? My group usually saves their buffs for what they expect will be major fights. Yes, this does mean that sometimes that they do fight the main villain without a large number of buffs.
I guess it's all down to your style of play - our players tend to mix gameist strategy with roleplay. They know (and the PC's know) that they're best set for an encounter with their tanks topped off. To each their own though. I appreciate that there's a broad spectrum of playing styles and approaches.
You still have to deal with dispel magic and other such effects. And I think that those will get used much more often if all the buff spells work all day.
You do give them more to play with if you have all-day buffs, this is true. I'm not so bothered by player power levels though as the disruptive effect of another ten minute 'who gets what?' re-boot routine.
As a player, you can't expect to be able to go buffed up for every encounter. It is an exercises in meta-game design at the expense of story, suspense, excitement...
Not so sure on that one. The PC's know that their spells etc. refresh every day - no need for meta knowledge from the player. If my shambolic bunch of PC's are faced with a time-sensitive situation the players will play in that spirit. On the other hand, if they know a challenge is round the corner and no clock is ticking you can hardly blame them for wanting to look their best...
Not so sure on that one. The PC's know that their spells etc. refresh every day - no need for meta knowledge from the player. If my shambolic bunch of PC's are faced with a time-sensitive situation the players will play in that spirit. On the other hand, if they know a challenge is round the corner and no clock is ticking you can hardly blame them for wanting to look their best...
But then they shouldn't complain when the DM optimizes the encounter, as the enemy will have had time to find out some information on who, what, how the PCs blew thru the last bunch....
I can see more traps and dispels happening, and possibly casters being targetted (especially if anyone survived or witnessed any of the other fights).
But then they shouldn't complain when the DM optimizes the encounter, as the enemy will have had time to find out some information on who, what, how the PCs blew thru the last bunch....I can see more traps and dispels happening, and possibly casters being targetted (especially if anyone survived or witnessed any of the other fights).
You are of course absolutely right. If the dungeon environment is 'dynamic' I always give the bad guys the benefit of preparation and any reasonable knowledge. It can turn into a bit of an arms race though. And I should say again, I'm more concerned about the disruptive effect on play of too many re-boots than I am about party power levels. My players are adults (at least legally) and I'm not about to introduce out-of-game restrictions on what they can do. My view is that a few simple changes might reduce the incentive to power up anew before every fight - all-day buffs might be one thing to try. Channel Positive Energy is another and seems to make a difference in our playtesting so far. I certainly don't want to stray into 4Ebay territory with an 'encounter' based mechanic.
Instead of 1d4+1 or +4 (or whatever current version of spells give, can care less), the spell only gives +2, but lasts 24 hours. Alternatively, over the course of the 24 hours the user of the spell can choose to "burn it up", getting a one-time +8 bonus on his next ability-related check... functional enough, and magical enough. Monte ftw.
This is cool!
I know this isn't a voting contest... but I'd like to throw my vote in with returning to 3.0 durations. :-D
Either that or maybe go with Monte Cook's alternate rule, which is also a viable and fun option.
One other option would be to limit the number of Buffs a PC can have at any given time to, say, 5 or something. This doesn't address the problems with 1 min/level spells wholesale but a limit may introduce a different angle on which buff's a player chooses?
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You agree, Montalve agrees, I agree... then again, not gonna happen. Insisting on proposing changes we all not are not meant to be is an exercise in futility and overall recipe for frustration. Beta is nearly done, so except for the further one-dimensionalization of a couple spells in the book, what we're seeing here is pretty much the finished product. Love the game as-is, and whatever you don't like just houserule it, just don't frustrate yourselves over pointless arguements.
I might have misunderstood something, but the magic & spells discussion is the one open right now, isn't it?
Asking for a change in duration for a group of similar spells seems to me quite appropriate.
I might have misunderstood something, but the magic & spells discussion is the one open right now, isn't it?
Asking for a change in duration for a group of similar spells seems to me quite appropriate.
Indeed it is apropiate, but if you have followed the flow of the beta, you can get an idea by now of the designer's vision, and you can predict which changes they'd be willing to include according to feedback, and which ones are a moot to ask for. The game is sticking with d20's "planned obsolecense" structure, and that's final, so buffs are needed to be kept "single encounter" if players are to be expected to depend on magic items as their only source of reliable assistance magic because, while many clerics might let other players force them into being healbots, arcane caster players are not so docile, and only a handful are actually willing to use up all their spell slots in single-encounter buffs.
personally I don't like the all day stat buffs, it is a routine buffing every day turning it into something mundane and mandatory.
players feel like they are severly crippled when they arent blessed by the party priest, this in turn overpowers the effect of dispel magic in encounters.
I might experiment a bit with the stat buffing spells as a swift action with a duration in rounds instead. For all day buffs I rather see magic items taking up that role.
I've always felt that the ten minute/level buffs where a good idea. They last long enough to be useful in several situations but at the same time are only going to be around 1~3 hours max. It makes the caster feel like he's getting a good bargain for his spell power while still leaving time in the day for the resource to be expended.
On a side note I like the hour/level buffs too, but I fill they should have limited roles like they do now.
I would be much more inclined to the 10 min/level durations versus the 1 minute flat with swift casting. I also agree that the number of buff spells/spell effects should be limited. I remember reading something about a limit of spell effects that could be on a character but cannot seem to find it anywhere in the beta book. It was something like 3 beneficial effects and if another was cast or placed on the character he/she could drop one for it to replace or just ignore it and keep the 3 they had. Was this something that was in alpha and just wasn't transplanted into beta (intentionally/unintentionally)? Maybe Jason or one of the other nice folk at Paizo would let us know on that account.
For what it is worth I would like to see that rule in the final content, it keeps casters from going "God mode" for encounters. When I found it and pointed it out to my DM we both looked at it and said "This is good." We have been playing with it since and just assumed it was in beta.
10 minute per level spell durations were reduced to 1 minute per level spell durations because you could buff everyone in the party and then charge through multiple encounters with relative ease. I'm not really keen on kicking the durations back up to 10 minutes per level.
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Encounter Duration is the only thing I did like from 4e...
+4 STR at 3rd level is pretty powerful IMHO...it should start out as a +2 buff, then increase to +4 and then +6., perhaps even +8 and +10, since at those levels +4 is pretty inconsequential and it becomes difficult to hit the really nasty BBEGs.
Here's another vote for returning to the 3.0 durations. I've always preferred the 3.0 animal buffs, but I understand the reasons for the flat +4's.
If the bonuses scaled over time as suggested above (starting at +2 then scaling up to +8 possibly) then reliance on items could be lessed some, giving these second level spells a bit more relavance over the course of the game. Which would be nice in my opinion. It would also help explain why you can get a + 6 stat boosting item out of a spell that only gives a + 4...
The number of buff spells is 3.x biggest failure in my opinion....
From a roleplaying perspective most characters don't enter a dungeon to hack, slash and kill as many 'Bad Guys' in 5 minutes time.
Try imagine what your character would do after slaughtering a room full of orcs in a fierce fight, everyone takes some blows and cuts and while there is no mechanic for it you can assume players need a few moments to regain their breath and check their wounds and gear,converse with your companions,and clean the blood and gore of your face,you dont really charge on to the next room right after the last orc drops unless you have a very good reason.
It's perfectly reasonable to assume you take a minute to do these things after a combat, unless you have a personality disorder I guess.
typically it's a DM's job to make players aware and make a realistic estimation of what can logicaly be done, either way a room just filled with monster room after monster room is just a poor design dungeon from my perspective.
typically a decent level caster can expect to do two encounters, perhaps 3 if the situation permits, while a 1 round per level spell would last for one encounter only.
I will not reward a 'dungeon hack mentality' in which players try to fit as many kills as possible in their spells duration
It's because you're wanting to make the spell more than it was meant to be. They were designed to be battle buff spells, not something that a wizard casts upon themselves for the day while they shower and brush thier teeth. It's one of the reasons I like White Wolf's effect durations of "scene" "sun" and "moon" by comparison.Lets face it, 1 minute/level is a bad duration. It basically amounts to "How your DM wants to screw you over." Because everytime I've played with such spells, it seems like they expire ridiculously quickly, even though you technically could be crossing many rooms within the span of 5 minutes (which is 50 rounds).
Actually as battle buffs they stink, precisely becuase they don't last long enough. If you cast the before battle, you could cast too soon and they wear off with no effect. If you cast during battle there are much better spells to cast.
Actually as battle buffs they stink, precisely becuase they don't last long enough. If you cast the before battle, you could cast too soon and they wear off with no effect. If you cast during battle there are much better spells to cast.
You want to cast them just before the battle begins - not an hour (or longer) before the battle begins as per the old durations.
Exactly... but when do you know a battle is about to begin?
There maybe a door, you may hear noise through it... but if you start casting spells then someone on the other side could hear that and attack before you are finished...
Or there maybe nothing on the other side and you've wasted a spell. Usually you don't have more than a round at most before you are in the combat, not enough to buff everyone and you maybe needing some of your minute per level buffs yourself and aren't about to waste them on the fighter/ whomever. I agree there are times when you know before had a combat is about to happen, and these buffs work good then... but for those times scrolls or what not work just as well, with less worry about spell slots (of course then you may waste a potion or scroll).
Spells per day is a huge worry for spellcaster for good reason so just casting when a combat *might* break out is a large gamble.
If the duration was 10 min/level then you would have enough of a time cushion that even if there wasn't an immediate combat you'll probably reach one before the spell wears out.
Eariler when I said an hour duration would be nice, I meant 1 hour, not an hour per level. Alternatively I would be happy with the 10 min/ level back.
Exactly... but when do you know a battle is about to begin?
There maybe a door, you may hear noise through it... but if you start casting spells then someone on the other side could hear that and attack before you are finished...
Sometimes the attack is obvious. Sometimes you need to implement a scout or Divination spells to get to the bottom of things.
Or there maybe nothing on the other side and you've wasted a spell.
That also happens sometimes. And sometimes we cast buff spells and end up blowing through the opposition in a few rounds.
Eariler when I said an hour duration would be nice, I meant 1 hour, not an hour per level. Alternatively I would be happy with the 10 min/ level back.
Once you get to mid to higher levels, 10 minutes per level means buffs that are running for an hour (or longer). And if you use Extend Spell, you're looking at two hours or more. It takes a spell that might be good if used properly and turns it into a spell that you'd be insane not to have on you at all times.