In the interests of not getting this thread locked, I'll ignore:
<a bunch of really illogical things>
and move on. I'd be more than happy to continue this conversation though with anyone who wishes to, offline. My email address is in my profile if so.
Jreyst - thanks for your self control.
Hey ZC - Happy New Year!
And a Happy New Year to everyone else!
Lets get back on track here. I think the issue of being prepared with stat blocks before summoning is important, but does not solve the trouble of the "9 Hippogriff Cluster#$%k" (That would have been a great title for this thread).
Even if you have everything stated out, with templates, augmented, etc. Your still taking all of those actions - up to 27 attack rolls in the case of the Hippogriff's, then damage rolls... The player making these rolls may feel that he can do it quickly (not to mention his own characters round), but everyone else at the table is going to be bored out of their minds. And lets be honest here, you're not making 10 creatures full round actions in the time it takes others to make one. This problem gets worse when the summoned creatures have almost as many options and special abilities as a player character.
With one spell you can put up to 4 creatures on the battlemat, isn't this enough?
With one spell you can put up to 4 creatures on the battlemat, isn't this enough?
That's why I suggested the limit of one summoning effect at a time. It's still potentially up to 5 extra critters (1d4+1 and a good roll), but it can prevent the real messes of spamming certain types of creatures, and at least makes sure that all those creatures are the same. (9 hippogriffs may be bad, but imagine 4 hippogriffs and 5 dire apes. Even more math!)
Another solution would be to use the Astral Construct as suggested above.
I.e.
- one generic statblock for creatures of a given Summon Monster/Nature N
- one special ability from list A (for lower level summons)
- one special ability from list B or two special abilities from list A (for higher level summons)The Astral Construct approach would finally eliminate the eternal dilemma of "I cannot summon creature I really want" and "other alignments have it easier".
Regards,
Ruemere
I'd be ok with this approach (for whatever thats worth!)
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I, personally, would not really enjoy going to generic statblocks with just the description being fluff. Kind of takes the cool out summoning.
For very large quantity of summoned critters I like what someone else said about dividing them up between players.
Say you have 4 players. The Druid manages to summon 8 Hippogrifs, and has his animal companion. I would suggest taking 6-7 of the Hippogrifs and assigning them to other players.
This allows everyone to have some fun with the summoned critters, the summoner gets to control his usual animal companion, and 1-2 summoned critters. AND the summoner gets the cool feeling of making a major contribution to the party.
If the higher levels of the summing spells were to increase the CR of the summoned critters it would make it easier to have a natural limit of caster level x 4 HD be a limit on summoning.
Again, I'd rather not see this change, and I really wouldn't want to see random "summon bots" instead of summoning actual creatures.
As far as playtests go, I've got a Conjurer in my 11th level campaign, and a druid in my 3rd level campaign, and so far I haven't really had any issues with summoned creatures, not even when
Spoilers for Rise of the Runelords:
Also, (Spoilers for Savage Tide):
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But I still fail to see any real usefulness of the summoned critters themselves. At most the critters deny a space from the enemy. Even the threat of an AoO is not worth worrying about. IF the extremely lower level summoned creature even manages to get a hit on the enemy it will do minimal damage.
. . .
To maintain control of the battlefield, summoned critters must be able to back up the threat of an AoO. If the summoned critter is virtually unable to damage the enemy in any meaningful way it fails to control any spaces around it.
Occupying space is VERY useful. An opposing creature cannot enter that space without an overrun, or occupy it while the summoner creature lives. That means it may be unable to attack a ranged combatant (spellcaster or archer), or get to a downed PC, or a "quest object" NPC.
Even if a summoned critter cannot hit for significant damage most of them can provide a flank. Depending on how you interpret Int 3, they can also likely use aid another for another +2 to hit or AC. Tack those on to a power attacking fighter, a sneak attacking rogue, or anyone who needs help against a super-AC critter, and the benefits quickly become obvious.
Those with hands, even an otherwise useless celestial monkey, can manipulate objects, particularly opening those exploding or poisoned chests. Even just an eagle carrying an emergency potion to someone in trouble can be quite useful.
Access to flying or swimming creatures on an instant basis can greatly expand the reach of a party.
Whirlwind can be disproportionately effective, particularly if you get extra desperate and realize that an air elemental in whirlwind form can "flee" the battlefield with the party at the cost of what is likely minor damage compared to whatever is making you use such an escape route.
When you finally hit Summon Monster IV for non-evil specials, the real versatility of summoning kicks in. The ones I have used:
IV
Lantern Archon at will - aid, continual light, detect evil, tongues, magic circle against evil; aura of menace (Will save or -2 on attacks, AC, and saves until they hit the archon)
Mephits (depending on type) gust of wind, wind wall, magic missile, chill metal, scorching ray, heat metal, pyrotechnics, (2d6 "fire"ball), soften earth and stone, glitterdust, (2d8 "drying out"ball), acid arrow, stinking cloud; breath weapon (many of which add penalties to the damage)
V
Hound Archon at will - aid, continual flame, detect evil, message, magic circle against evil, tongues; aura of menace, aligned attacks
VI
Bralani Eladrin at will - blur, charm person, gust of wind, mirror image, wind wall; 2/day lightning bolt, cure serious wounds; whilrwind form, tongue, aligned attacks
Janni 3/day speak with animals
Drop five salt mephits who drop five glitterdusts on a pack of bad guys and watch the fun begin. Even with the low save DC they can always roll a 1. Free magic circle against evil is great when you trigger a summon trap that brings an elder earth elemental or something equally egregious. And while not the greatest use of a 6th level spell, a pair of cure serious wounds from a bralani summoned by a wizard when the cleric is bleeding out should not be sneered at.
Summoned critters have other special abilities; scent to find invisible or super-well hidden enemies, improved grab, poison (if you go evil).
Add in augmented summoning and something to drop the casting time to a standard action (rapid spell in non-OGL WotC products), and it becomes even more effective at all of the above.
Add in augmented summoning and something to drop the casting time to a standard action (rapid spell in non-OGL WotC products), and it becomes even more effective at all of the above..
The Rapid Summoning Conjurer Variant from UA is OGL and should be considered by anyone who wants to play an arcane summoner. The decision to give up Arcane Bond might be a bit tougher than 3.x's Summon Familiar, however.
Again, I'd rather not see this change, and I really wouldn't want to see random "summon bots" instead of summoning actual creatures.
Ditto. It works to keep Psionics different, and it feels psionic. But it's not "magical" and doesn't feel magic. Another no to "summon bots".
Peace,
tfad
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IV
Lantern Archon at will - aid, continual light, detect evil, tongues, magic circle against evil; aura of menace (Will save or -2 on attacks, AC, and saves until they hit the archon)
Mephits (depending on type) gust of wind, wind wall, magic missile, chill metal, scorching ray, heat metal, pyrotechnics, (2d6 "fire"ball), soften earth and stone, glitterdust, (2d8 "drying out"ball), acid arrow, stinking cloud; breath weapon (many of which add penalties to the damage)V
Hound Archon at will - aid, continual flame, detect evil, message, magic circle against evil, tongues; aura of menace, aligned attacksVI
Bralani Eladrin at will - blur, charm person, gust of wind, mirror image, wind wall; 2/day lightning bolt, cure serious wounds; whilrwind form, tongue, aligned attacks
Janni 3/day speak with animals
Ok, so essentially Summoned critters are useful as non-combat utility sources. Possible in combat as support- healing or buffing, they might be able to get you flanking and aid another.
BTW You can remove the Eladrin from the list, since they are not OGL... Best one on the list is gone.
So in combat we have a fight with let's just say... (since we have celestials we'll use fiends and elementals for parity for the bad guys)...
IV
Lantern Archon (CR 2) vs Hellcat Devil (CR 7)
V
Hound Archon (CR 4) vs Vrock Demon (CR 9)
VI
Janni (CR 4) vs Elder Fire Elemental (CR 11)
Not exactly the role I imagine for a summoner- essentially a back up heal bot or buffing machine.
So essentially the Summoner's critters are nuisances at best for the bad guys, at best heal bots for PCs. I guess better than nothing, but darn not anything at all like any Summoner I have read about or seen in a movie. Not what I want to play, for sure. But then I don't usually like playing just a sidekick. But I guess that is just me.
Brelani are still on the list . . . they are in the SRD, they just aren't listed as eladrin.
Don't understate the importance of the lantern Archon's Light Ray.
Yeah 1d6 big woop... but it's a 1d6 Extra-ordinary ability (No SR, No Anti Magic) and it bypasses all DR that can become a big deal.
You get two shots a round out of each lantern archon. Burn a 5th level slot get 2 or 3 out there and you have 4~6 shots a round that are touch attacks. It comes out to 4~6d6 damage a round for 9 rounds minimum while still having all your normal action available during that time. Just keep the Lantern Archon out of reach. They should only be absorbing hits in three cases: The opponent can fly (or uses a ranged attack on them), or you are using them as a last ditch shield.
The Bralani is OGL (link)
Also The Avoral can be nice... unlimited magic missiles, dispel magic, and Lay On Hands, built in true seeing and spell resistance. Not a back up mage/ meat shield if one is needed and wonderful scout. With that dispel magic if you are hit with multiple lower level casters you can let the Avoral counter one of them with dispel magic each round.
However most of the list are not traditional tanks... and trying to use them as such is disappointing.
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9 rounds minimum
First interesting they have the Bralani, just not as an Eladrin. Weird, but thanks for pointing that out. By any chance are there any more of those out there? I loved the Eladrin (pre-4E) and there are other races I liked that are not OGL and could maybe be in the SRD by another name variant...
I still just find the role that is filled to be less than satisfying.
When our Druid tried summoning (other than never keeping his stat cards he was OK) the critters were either ignored as ineffectual (he once had half a dozen crocodiles surround a bad guy and even with flanking they never once hit) or if they actually did hit or in the crocs case hemmed in the bad guy the bad guy dispatched several in one round- gaining a clear route. And this was at lower-mid levels. Only benefit we got- and I kid you not- was one round I as the fighter, did not take all the dang hits.
The best use we ever got from summoned critters was he summoned several Giant Eagles that let us cross a ravine quickly and gain on the bad guys we were chasing.
But in combat, they were a joke. No CR 6 is going to do much of anything against a CR 11. Best role a summoner can fill is sidekick. And that is just not a worthy PC role.
Again my advice would be he is summoning the wrong creatures:
Summon Monster 1 = Fiendish Wolf (Trip on attack)
Summon Monster 2 = Fiendish Monstrous Scorpion (3 attacks, constriction, poison, improved grab, Tremorsense, Darkvision)
Summon Monster 3 = Dretch (scare, stinking cloud, DR, 3 attacks); Celestial Hippogrift (flight, 3 attacks) Dire Badger (3 attacks, rage, decent hp)
Summon Monster 4 = Lantern Archon (aid, PoE, Menace, LIGHT RAYS *as I call them flashbulbs of death!); Mephits (special abilities); Yeth Hound (decent DR helps make up for the low HP, Bay, flight, trip)
Summon Monster 5 = Fiendish Monstrous Scorpion, Large; Bearded Devil (DR, SR, Abilities, frenzy); Shadow Mastiff (Total Concealment; trip; bay); Achaierai (BLACK CLOUD! Every round you get a chance to!)
A lot of times you should choose according to what you are facing: If You got Average or Low BAB opponents grab a meleer with special abilities to tie them up. If you have an foe with high BAB grab something that has ranged attacks to soften the target (Lantern Archon, or for the Nature's Ally Arrowhawks!).
Creatures like the giant croc don't have anything going for them and should be avoided.
A cheap shot is to summon lots of earth elementals out of the ceiling of a cavern (Building etc.) Because of their earth slide they can be summoned there, then have them fall on your opponents, a Medium Elemental weighs 750, 1d6 per 10 foot fallen + 1d6 per 200 pounds puts you in the range of 5d6 minimum, and then you have an elemental to attack for you.
Hey ZC - Happy New Year!
Happy New Year to you and all fellow Paizonians too!
I'll see you later for some hot Hero-on-Scarwall action, eh?
-S
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But in combat, they were a joke. No CR 6 is going to do much of anything against a CR 11. Best role a summoner can fill is sidekick. And that is just not a worthy PC role.
It's unfortunate that you have dismissed a particular kind of magic user as unworthy. My best experiences in recent D&D memory have been as a summoner.
What you need to remember is that the creatures summoned are not supposed to be able to stand toe to toe with the BBEG; they're just a spell effect with power equivalent to any other offensive spell of their level. What you get is lingering effects like tactical advantages, diversions (HP sinks for soaking up damage that would otherwise got to a PC), as well as damage potential or special abilities.
IMO Nature's Ally and Summon Monster not only give you good access to a wide variety of attacks and ways to aid the party in combat, but the Ex, SU and Sp's of many creatures save you from having to put them on your own list. I once had a dretch incapacitate a whole room of thugs with stinking cloud while the party buffed and readied actions. My dire bat was the only thing that could find and engage a flying dragon in a fog cloud. Yet another time, my lantern archons were one of the only things that could hurt the rakshashka (sp?) we faced off against. That, and crocodiles are fun! :)
To be fair, the summoner must also be able to diversify a bit in order to be contribute. Since you're probably avoiding combat in order to call down a million fiendish monkeys (much more fun than celestial ones), why not suppliment with a buff or artillery support role too? I made sure to have Fell Draining Sound Bursts and prayers available too; just in case a summoned critter wasn't the answer to the problem.
Personally, I dont think you can have to many summons. The summoner has to have the stats done and keep track of buff. you forget it goes away or you dont get the benefit.
I had someone tell me in our last game session that we needed a mage with more offensive spells. I had to explain that my one creature MSIII did more damage than the fireball I could have cast. the creature also allows for flanking and possibly other special attack.
The problem i run into is that many of the bad guys have protection from good up and so hedges out my creatures. Of course two huge monsterous centipedes can block a lot of space and keep the bad guy boxed in.
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I've been part of more then one campaign that went downhill due to over summoning by the caster, and I'm playing a conjurer with augment summons right now, and it is hard to resist flooding every battlefield with summoned creatures.
While ideally it is a matter of player etiquette not to take an undue amount of time and space with summons, when it comes time for your character to shine, game time has a way of passing differently for different players. Also what works great in a three person party (especially without a fighter type) may wreck the game for a larger group.
Perhaps limiting the number of summoning spells that can be active to two? Or even one?
I really think this needs to be part of the rules because a mid-to-high level caster can put enough complex creatures into play that the game just slows to a crawl.
Also, can Summon Swarm ramp up to one swarm per 5 caster levels or something...
I have not had that much trouble with Summoned Monsters even with the broketastic Scared Lands Summoner I ran. lol
What about Summoning Spells that summon more powerful creatures but only one at a time. Perhaps with a longer duration?
Also, What about a HD limitation? 2hd per caster level or some such?
Just my 2 cents
The camps seem to fall either to:
"I don't have problems with those in my game, even multiple summons"
and
"we need to have fewer of them".
Should this maybe be an optional rule? or just a warning about them with a nudge towards note cards and stats and the (potential) disrupting effect?
I am leery of a "game rule" that really is only existing for the purpose of speeding up play, rather than to actually cure some problem or imbalance. (because "speeding up play" is relative, and might effect one group and not another).
Thoughts?
Players who play summoning characters need to use good form when using summon spells. Summoning is an interesting and versatile kind of magic - and for me, a personal favorite.
However, I would never sit at the gaming table without the pre-generated stats of any summoned critter I have any chance of summoning. Any templates as well as modifications for Augment etc already included.
If you are using "Animal Growth" or other buffs for summons - you should have those buffed stats pregenerated as well.
A constant flipping through of Monster Manual while figuring out templated stats and Augmented stats while at the table is pure selfishness - and a DM is completely justified in insisting that a player have these stats ready at hand if they wish to use the spells.
My current summoner character exists in a binder - with tab references to get full stat templates for any creature I am likely to summon - with all stat augments already factored in. It required alot of paper/ink/work - but it was an investment in being reasonable.
Furthermore, the player should have any figurines on hand at the beginning of gameplay of any summonings he is likely to perform in the near future. Fumbling for appropriate miniatures while casting the spell is just plain inconsiderate.
It is easy to get "carried away" with summoning - but steps can be taken to ensure that it is more "player friendly"
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However, I would never sit at the gaming table without the pre-generated stats of any summoned critter I have any chance of summoning. Any templates as well as modifications for Augment etc already included.
And that's pretty much my position on the matter. A player who is considerate to the other players at the table will deal with this 'problem' themself by coming to the table prepared.
The 'problem' isn't really the rules or the mechanics, it's the inconsiderate player who feels that his time is worth more than everyone elses. A rules fix doesn't seem like the right place to apply the bandage, in this case.
I think coming to the table prepared goes a long way towards making summons run more smoothly, but there is no getting around the fact that having an additional 5, 10, 15, etc. creatures on the battle mat is going to slow things down. When these creatures all have multiple attacks, spells, spell like abilities, multiple forms, and are huge to begin with, things bog down.
I know there are a few folks out there who have no problem with 50 creatures acting in one round, or think they can act for 10 creatures (and their own character) in the time it takes another player to cast a spell, but I think SOMETHING should be included in the rules to discourage excessive summoning. Perhaps a section similar to the Leadership feat, warning less experienced players and DM's of the potential troubles of these spells.
I've been playtesting using only one summoned creature at a time, and I think it works great.
The 'problem' isn't really the rules or the mechanics, it's the inconsiderate player who feels that his time is worth more than everyone elses. A rules fix doesn't seem like the right place to apply the bandage, in this case.
A rules fix for only that purpose might not be a great idea, but when I tried to rebuild the summoning lists, I used a limit of one summon per caster in order to bump up the power of summoned monsters. Two bird with one stone, so to speak.