Bard & Sorcerer & Wizard: Cantrips (Sp): A bard/sorcerer/wizard knows a number of cantrips. He can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability.
Cleric & Druid: Orisons (Sp): Clerics/Druids can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day. They can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability.
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
By this reading all "0" level spells should have no components, yet most (all?) of them do. Look at Daze for instance.
Should all 0 level spells have the V,S,M removed in the text?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Bard & Sorcerer & Wizard: Cantrips (Sp): A bard/sorcerer/wizard knows a number of cantrips. He can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability.
Cleric & Druid: Orisons (Sp): Clerics/Druids can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day. They can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability.
Spell-Like Abilities: Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.
By this reading all "0" level spells should have no components, yet most (all?) of them do. Look at Daze for instance.
Should all 0 level spells have the V,S,M removed in the text?
-- david
Papa.DRB
Certainly the M should be removed. Since the idea is to allow casting an unlimited number of times, 0-level spells should not be limited by resources, with the possible exception of a focus that is not consumed by repeated casting.
I don't know if the V,S should be removed, or if the "as a spell-like ability" text should be removed. Good job pointing out the contradiction.
Personally, I think that a gagged and bound wizard should be completely neutralized, unable to cast even 0-level spells unless he has taken the necessary metamagic feats to bypass all of a spell's required components.
Perhaps there could be a difference between casters who prepare spells, and those who don't.
Given that magic is an innate ability of Bards and Sorcerers I like the fact, that they can cast cantrips as a spell like ability without components. This could enhance the feel of these classes being magical by nature. It could be problematic though, if someone tries to apply the same logic to other spell than level 0.
sorcerers already get the eschew component feat for free, bards should get the same benefit imo, also I think a bard does not necesarily need a verbal component anymore, since there are more ways to perform afterall not just by singing or chanting.
the spell-like ability at will is still a bit awkward concept, since they are not balanced for that purpose. I like the concept of a wizard always being able to cast a ray of frost or some other minor spells, but always having detect magic , mending and create water available is another matter. maybe adding a component to some of these spells could balance them usable at will somewhat ?
also I think they should keep at least a Somatic component, like the warlock in complete arcane.
Bard SPELLs by thier nature MUST have a verbal component that is why the Silent metamagic can not be applied to them. Bardic spellcasting is not the same thing as Bardic performance.
Yes, this is the case in the current rules. But it could be argued that the bard relying on types of perform, that doesn't involve singing, music or reciting, didn't necessarily have to include verbal components.
You might even make a rule in which stated that the bard at lvl 1 chooses a favored type of perform which he uses to cast spells. Then the sound based perform types would require verbal components, and the non-verbal (act or dance) requires a somatic component.This might have some additional benefits. The favored type could be free ranks or skill focus, to avoid the bard having to spend 1/4 of his skill points on performance (but this is a topic discussed elsewhere).
And you could use perform instead of spellcasting in rolls such as concentration, which makes sense, since the magic obviously is derived from the performance and not knowledge of magic. This would make the performance skill more than a dump stat to gain bardic performance.
Bard SPELLs by thier nature MUST have a verbal component that is why the Silent metamagic can not be applied to them. Bardic spellcasting is not the same thing as Bardic performance.
Yes, this is the case in the current rules. But it could be argued that the bard relying on types of perform, that doesn't involve singing, music or reciting, didn't necessarily have to include verbal components.
You might even make a rule in which stated that the bard at lvl 1 chooses a favored type of perform which he uses to cast spells. Then the sound based perform types would require verbal components, and the non-verbal (act or dance) requires a somatic component.
This might have some additional benefits. The favored type could be free ranks or skill focus, to avoid the bard having to spend 1/4 of his skill points on performance (but this is a topic discussed elsewhere).
And you could use perform instead of spellcasting in rolls such as concentration, which makes sense, since the magic obviously is derived from the performance and not knowledge of magic. This would make the performance skill more than a dump stat to gain bardic performance.
thank you, that was my point.. I know the current rules, just think it a little random. I can imagine a bard singing or dancing or both instead of 'traditional spellcasting' but I dont see why a verbal component should be added at all times.