RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Some spells affect a certain HD of creatures, and most of these have the problem that they affect only up to a flat, fixed HD amount. This causes them to have limited or no use at higher levels. Why should sleep be a great spell at low levels, but then at higher levels dissapear? If magic missile and ray of enfeeblement are useful for the whole game, why can't sleep?
As an alternative, the spell Calm Animals affects a certain HD, but it is tied to caster level (2d4+caster level). I propose that all spells of this type work in a similar way.
The spells I can think of in this group are:
sleep
deep slumber
cause fear
scare
daze
Some spells affect a certain HD of creatures, and most of these have the problem that they affect only up to a flat, fixed HD amount. This causes them to have limited or no use at higher levels. Why should sleep be a great spell at low levels, but then at higher levels dissapear? If magic missile and ray of enfeeblement are useful for the whole game, why can't sleep?
As an alternative, the spell Calm Animals affects a certain HD, but it is tied to caster level (2d4+caster level). I propose that all spells of this type work in a similar way.
The spells I can think of in this group are:
sleep
deep slumber
cause fear
scare
daze
There are actually two limitations on these spells, both built into the single number.
1. # of HD of creatures affected.
2. Max HD of creature affected.
I'm in favor of discarding limitation #1, however I don't think limitation #2 should scale as quickly if at all.
Also limited by #2 is Death Spell (or rather Circle of Death), though I'm in favor of keeping that limit intact.
The spells I can think of in this group are:
sleep
deep slumber
cause fear
scare
daze
I think doing this would only add to the SoD problem, as these spells are effectively that if the save is failed.
Though, I do agree that it's unfortunate to see these spells completely disappear by even mid level play.
I think doing this would only add to the SoD problem, as these spells are effectively that if the save is failed.Though, I do agree that it's unfortunate to see these spells completely disappear by even mid level play.
I'd like to see these spells made more useful, too--wizards in my campaigns collect them for a Pokemon-like 'gotta have em all' purpose only; Sorcerers don't touch them with a ten-foot pole (since they KNOW they'd have to replace them). Divine casters use those sorts more than anyone, really (since it doesn't cost them anything to get them) and they stop preparing them almost immediately, favoring spells that scale with level.
Possible solutions/approaches:
1) Add a Color Spray like secondary effect on par with the problem
2) Scale up the maxHD and #HD numbers.
3) Remove the thresholds, and and require saves against a chain of effects. (Yes, I know who ELSE uses this approach...).
Example [Sleep]:
a) Victim rolls save and succeeds: Done
b) Victim fails first save but passes 2nd: slowed for n rounds.
c) Victim fails first and second saves: asleep for n rounds.
Of course, I'm actually fine with SoD effects, and would cast my vote in favor of keeping them, although I only give monsters VERY limited access to them.
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Some spells affect a certain HD of creatures, and most of these have the problem that they affect only up to a flat, fixed HD amount. This causes them to have limited or no use at higher levels. Why should sleep be a great spell at low levels, but then at higher levels dissapear? If magic missile and ray of enfeeblement are useful for the whole game, why can't sleep?
As an alternative, the spell Calm Animals affects a certain HD, but it is tied to caster level (2d4+caster level). I propose that all spells of this type work in a similar way.
The spells I can think of in this group are:
sleep
deep slumber
cause fear
scare
daze
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think a much better mechanic is what's used by the hypnotic pattern and rainbow patter spells. They both do have a cap on the HD affected, but it can be dived up amongst creatures in any fashion (though lowest HD creatures first), and the total HD cap is high enough to be useful into much higher levels.
Hypnotic pattern is 2nd level and affects 2d4+caster leve (max 10) HD, so even when it's maxed out, it can affect 12-18 HD (average 15HD) creatures, which means that this 2nd level spell has legs until the caster is 12-15th level.
Rainbow pattern is a 4th level spell and simply affects 24 HD.
Compare these to sleep and deep slumber, which affect a flat 4 or 10 HD of creatures. Hypnotic pattern is better than deep slumber, and it's a 2nd level spell instead of a 3rd.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I think a much better mechanic is what's used by the hypnotic pattern and rainbow patter spells. They both do have a cap on the HD affected, but it can be dived up amongst creatures in any fashion (though lowest HD creatures first), and the total HD cap is high enough to be useful into much higher levels.
Hypnotic pattern is 2nd level and affects 2d4+caster leve (max 10) HD, so even when it's maxed out, it can affect 12-18 HD (average 15HD) creatures, which means that this 2nd level spell has legs until the caster is 12-15th level.
Rainbow pattern is a 4th level spell and simply affects 24 HD.
Compare these to sleep and deep slumber, which affect a flat 4 or 10 HD of creatures. Hypnotic pattern is better than deep slumber, and it's a 2nd level spell instead of a 3rd.
I would agree. My beguiler was using rainbow pattern all the way up through the final adventure of the STAP, at 20th level, as it was still useful. And also, BTW, did not take a full round to cast like deep slumber.
The second problem of flat HD is that they can't be increased by Empower Spell; you can empower a circle of death but not sleep.
In my previous 3.5 campaign, I actually made a change to Heighten Spell, so that every 2 levels you increased a spell, the die caps for damage would increase by 5 and the HD caps would increase by 50% of the base value. So, if you Heightened deep slumber by 2 levels you'd get 15 HD, not 10; 4 levels, you'd get 20, 6 levels 25.
Sometimes this would produce an effect like Empower, in that a 5th level heightened fireball, for instance, would have a die cap of 15d6, not 10d6 (and would have a save DC 2 higher); but, you'd have to be 15th level to get 15d6, where with Empower you could get 15d6 at 10th level.
Anyway, either enabling the cap to be boosted with Heighten Spell or just making the cap more flexible, either would be good with me, and I think the rainbow/hypnotic pattern pair is a good benchmark.
BUT, even with all of the above, let's be honest here: Fear and sleep are MUCH more deadly effects than fascinate, so if you want it to be comparable to those spells it's going to need to be smaller numbers at the current level or else the same numbers at a higher level.