Elves, they all start out with swords and long bows (the best ranged weapon in the game) no matter what they are in life.
This doesnt make sense.
An elf ranger gets no benefit from this starting out (as all rangers uses the weapons) and other classes like wizard get too much benefit.
I would suggest that elves who get one of those proficencies already in their charater class, get to choose a weapon focus on one of them.
Then a starting wizard for example could either choose ONE of those weapon proficencies, OR light armor proficency, OR a Spell Focus.
See the elves live a long time before they start out adventuring in comparison to the other races, but an elf wizard isnt going to spend his early years studying sword play (specifically) and it is silly to suggest that it is mandatory for ALL elf children to train with say the raiper.
But they DO have ALOT more time to study specific things, and therefor ALL starting out elves should have learned more or better things than a starting out say, human.
Also elves should get a craft as a racial class skill and have an automatic 1 rank in it (Elves are a craft like society and all elves would have plenty time on their youth to learn one) and Additionally elves should get s skill focus of their choosing to start.
these changes would represent the elves long life, and extended time they hand in their youth to learn things, Without assuming all elves know how to shoot and slash.
Elves who were wizardly inclined would spend more time in books and so would start with perhaps a skill focus in spellcraft and a spell focus on s spell of their choosing.
Also possibly give elves some autoranks on knowledge skills (of their choosing) they would have studied things in their youth others did not have the time to.
It's silly to think elves spend the first 60 years of their life watching the leaves turn from season to season.
Also the same is true of dwarves, They should begin with a skill focus in a craft of their choosing. they spend longer years of their youth before aventuring, so they would have a skill focus in a craft and probably an automatic profession as well, dwarves are an industrious folk they wouldnt let their youth wander about playing with sand castles for 40 years.
I have always gone with weapon focus longsword or longbow if the class of the elf already has proficiency in the weapon, but that's me following the complete book of elves of 2nd edition.
Some name it overpowered, oh wel. I was never one to keep a close eye on balance.
In truth I think too much balance makes a roleplaying game feel moer like a computer game. this is also the reason I never use point-buy system.
as for it being silly to think elves watch the leaves fall from season to season, I recommend you read complete book of elves as well.
You might have trouble finding it now since its a 2nd edition book but, with some searching i'm sure you'll uncover it somewhere.
I dont see it as being slow children, elves live a long, long time. Look at are kids compared to apes we take years to learn what they learn in a few months.
They grow but there minds are not human, they do not see the world as we do. They spend that time understanding just what they are, and how they fit inot the world.
I am gonna bring an example of the hated one but The purple eyed drow is a perfect example.
He is what 60-75 in most of them books but his mind hasn't gain and emotional stability yet, and it shows in many parts if ya look at it from that angle
In one of the last books another elf points out he just never learned how to coup with being an elf, his mind had not gained maturity and he needed to learn to think like an elf or the long years and loss would drive him to madness
So ya see for an elf at lest them years are spend learning how to deal with what they are, how to let the years slide off them , how not to take to much burden from the roll of years.
In are culture you live less then 100 years yet take 18 to become what we would call mature.thats 1/5th of your life to become an adult . Do you really think 1/5th of the time to mature for a being who lives 500 or more years really that far out there?
how can they me so holier-than-thou when they are retarded! it takes them 20years to learn what it take a human child 3 years to learn. short bus forest and mountain folk. I personally like to have them mature at a rate equal to humans and just have very looooooooong young adult and adult spans.
Aw c'mon man its like the vulcans from star trek, it takes a hundred years or so to really develop that "better than you" attitude.
As for the dwarves, I just figure they gotta pay their dues by figuring out how to build a better anvil, or working as taste testers for Samual Adams.
But that's just my opinion
(seriously though, have you seen some of the beards on those guys in the Samual Adams commercials? Tell me they aren't dwarves, I frickin' dare ya...)
;-)
As I already said on other threads, it would be really simpler to reduce the stating ages of these races ...
I am agist reducing the starting ages, they are not humans why should they develop in the same paces as humans?
I am agist reducing the starting ages, they are not humans why should they develop in the same paces as humans?
the question is why would they not?
read my first post as why they would not, they are not human....They need to lean to be what they are...elves for one need to learn to let the years slide and not take to much grief with them. They age at the same rate as human compared to the lifespans.
I am not saying they stay kids but they are not mentally ready for the world at large. sure they can tackle the world at 60 same as folks in are world can tackle it at 15 but are they ready?
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read my first post as why they would not, they are not human....They need to lean to be what they are...elves for one need to learn to let the years slide and not take to much grief with them. They age at the same rate as human compared to the lifespans.
I am not saying they stay kids but they are not mentally ready for the world at large. sure they can tackle the world at 60 same as folks in are world can tackle it at 15 but are they ready?
The additional years of growth should be shown with additional class skills and race-based craft skills.
Dwarves hsould also start with a profession, since every dwarf should be learning the craft of their fathers.
Elves spend years playing and learning how to be complete individuals, their years should be represented with a single additional craft skill and a racial bonus in theith chosen craft skill.
And of course gnomes already have their appraise bonus...greedy buggers
I kinda figed them years are spent getting the race stuff they start with.
You think they just magically learn the race stuff? that is learned over years.
I kinda figed them years are spent getting the race stuff they start with.
You think they just magically learn the race stuff? that is learned over years.
Well I think my point is ALL elves learn to fight with swords and bows?
But none of them start with crafts skills or perform in sing and dance?It's not that I WANT my elf to have sing and dance, It's just I dont think ALL elves are going to learn sword and bow.
If your races favored class is wizard and ranger, perhaps a choice of what you start with based on your favored class choice would make more sense?
Those who are more woodsy (rangers) would automatically get the sword and bow as martial weapons anyway, but it doesnt prevent them from taking their first level in wizard, tehcnically.
But those who are more mystical would have an extra skill point in arcana and spellcraft,
And of course all elves should have knowledge nature, some fairy crafty skill and/or performing skills. (singing,dancing and playing gaily)
I still have alot of hate for ALL elf spell casters starting with longswords and longbows. And starting elf rangers get well, nothing extra.
they always have I do not see an issue here
they always have I do not see an issue here
only in 3.x have they always, it was a bonus to hit with them before that.
Races age at different rates. Just because you can do a lot in 100 years time doesn't mean that, if you live for 1000 years, you would do a lot in 100 years time. If elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. all worked the same was as humans do mentally, there really isn't much point in there being different races at all.
As far as changing anything the races already have . . . I'd really not want to take anything away from any race that they already have . . . after all, the point isn't to remake the whole game, but to modify it, and if people are used to the idea that their elven wizard can use longswords or longbows, then I'd rather not tell them that that's not the case anymore.
Races age at different rates. Just because you can do a lot in 100 years time doesn't mean that, if you live for 1000 years, you would do a lot in 100 years time. If elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. all worked the same was as humans do mentally, there really isn't much point in there being different races at all.
As far as changing anything the races already have . . . I'd really not want to take anything away from any race that they already have . . . after all, the point isn't to remake the whole game, but to modify it, and if people are used to the idea that their elven wizard can use longswords or longbows, then I'd rather not tell them that that's not the case anymore.
Hmm its really not that necessarily, just that there isnt another option, and any elf taking a martial class does get that staggering bonus to being an elf (its the equivalanet of 5 feats for a human wizard)
I think there should be a choice, based on which favored class the elf player choose upon creation.
It used to be the sub races of elf (wood, wild, grey) had different favored classes and different weapon selection, based on their slight differences in their subrace.
It wouldnt be odd for golorian elves who were rangers, say to have some kind of benefit due to their up bringing, when being trained as rangers, they already know bow and sword, so wouldnt and eleven ranger learn something else in the time that it would take to teach those weapons.... even if it was some SP in knowledge nature, it would make more sense than their mentor telling them "I know you have used these weapons since childhoow, but...Learn them again!"
Maybe even getting a weapon focus free feat in ONE of those weapons (bow, sword, whatever)
See a dwarf wizard doesnt automatically get a dwarf war axe, he still has to spend a feat to get it (not sure why he would)
I think a martial elf gets jipped on his heritage and the spellcasters get something that is well overpowered really, but as you mention, pathfinder isnt into taking things away, so give the martial elves soemthing to choose (even if its perform ranks in sing and dance which i Think all elves should have)
Significantly long lived, I think the elves should start with some minro legend/lore as well (more likely have heard a tale, legend or name of a magic sword, or the evil dragons mothers name)
Cantrips.
Cantrips.
errr im missing something, what does cantrips have to do with anything? elf rangers get cantrips?
hmm as it is now, they get to treat all the weapons 'elven' as martial weapons, it's like I already did.
it means an elven ranger is automatically proficient with elven thinblade, courtblade and probably another 1 or 2 weapons.
I am fine with that rule as it is, in 2nd edition there was something in the elves handbook compensating an elf with a bonus non-weapon proficiency for every 10 years after 100.
The + 2 int all elves get now I am sure is based in large part on the experience and learning an elf gets in his first century of life.
hmm as it is now, they get to treat all the weapons 'elven' as martial weapons, it's like I already did.
it means an elven ranger is automatically proficient with elven thinblade, courtblade and probably another 1 or 2 weapons.
I am fine with that rule as it is, in 2nd edition there was something in the elves handbook compensating an elf with a bonus non-weapon proficiency for every 10 years after 100.
The + 2 int all elves get now I am sure is based in large part on the experience and learning an elf gets in his first century of life.
Im assuming you are talking about splatbook weapons, which I know nothing about.
is an orcs +2 to wisdom due to their years of contemplating their oneness with the universe?
No the additions or subtractions to stats due to race are genetic.
(orc stronger, elf more dextrous)
Elves aren't smarter because they lived longer than a human at the same character level.
Its not that I think elves need more. Less actually, four free weapons which would take a wizard to burn feats for, which they never would in game is a little much.
some skill points in arts and crafts and singing and dancing and maybe soe aracne know or something of the same would fit the race better.
"elves enjoy the art of fencing and archery" could simply be represented by a single free feat for non martial characters in ONE weapon OR the other and for martial characters weapon focus in ONE weapon OR the other (chosen at character creation and elf wizard could get sword or bow as a wp or a elf character that got sword/bow already could choose a focus in one of them)
This would bring back the old elf warrior with +1 to bow, of old.
sure craft skills arent "cool" for power gaming, but it would better explain and represnt what elves do with their tie before they get wander lust.
Saying it takes an elf 100 years to learn sword andbow when it takes a human 5 to learn the same thing (when the race gets an inherent +2 to int) is ridiculous.
even dwarves learn things like stonecunning that is not duplicatable by other races, in the years of their youth. some one who handled a sword and bow for a 100 years before they came out of the forest would be scarier with it than a first level ranger,so i dare say they dont spend that much time with those weapons ,according to the rules), nor would orcs orgoblins stand a chance against elves at all, if the hand 100 years of practice under their belt before they "came of age" to do battle with them.