Mind posting your build? I'd like to see what you've done and see if anything can be done about it. I'm sure others can also come up with good ideas once we see your build.
Sure... give me a day or so... the office is moving soon and I'm busy packing up. In a nutshell, I'm now (as of Sunday night) a LN human fighter 3/monk 4. (class progression supports back-story: Gregor was a young soldier at the time of Andoran's bid for independence, and was imprisoned in a Chelaxian "indoctrination center" for 10 years, where the harsh discipline made for logical monk training... especially when you share a cell with an old martial arts teacher. Now he's out of prison, and anxious to fight against Cheliax some more!)
OK: Current stats -- quite a bit better than they were a couple of levels ago: we got mad loot on Sunday and turned it all into trinkets. For how he was during the playtest, dock 1-2 fighter levels and associated hp and BAB and feats; 2 points of Str (from the belt); and the bow.
Gregor Ludiczeck
LN Male Human Fighter 3/Monk 4
Init +6; Senses Perception +12
AC 20 (+2 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 monk, +1 dodge, +1 deflection, +2 armor)
hp 59 (7 HD)
Resist +2 vs. enchantments, +1 vs. fear
Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +9; evasion
Spd 40 ft.
Melee two +1 kamas +10/+10/+5 or +8/+8/+8/+3 (1d6+5)
or unarmed strike +10/+5 or +8/+8/+3 (1d8+4)
Ranged composite longbow +8/+3 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +6; CMB +11 (trip +13)
Str 16 (18 with belt), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 16, Cha 10
SQ armor training +1; favored class: monk; ki pool (5 points), slow fall 20 ft.
Feats Two-Weapon Fighting, Martial Weapon (longbow), Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (kama), Dodge, Toughness, Improved Initiative, Greater Trip
Skills Acrobatics +12, Climb +11, Handle Animal +4, Perception +12, Stealth +11, Survival +7, Swim +9, Sense Motive +4
Possessions: two +1 kamas, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, bracers of armor +1, belt of strength +2, mighty [+4] composite longbow.
I'll give this a look when I get home and see what I can come up with. Doesn't look too bad, honestly. Only thing I can say straight out is that the way I've always read Flurry of Blows, Two Weapon Fighting (and two monk weapons) is redundant at your current levels. Again, I'll give this a closer look when I get home and can access my sourcebooks.
It seems to me the best way to make a melee character is four level dips. Four levels of fighter, four levels of monk, four levels of paladin.... :)
Quiet you! :P
The build does look good. Here is a "what if?" though:
Drop Fighter 3 to Fighter 1
Raise Monk 4 to Monk 6
Fighter 3->1:
BAB: -2
CMB: -2
BSB: -1/-1/-1
HP: -2d10 (-11 avg)
SP: -4
Class features: -Bravery, -armor training, -1 bonus feat
Monk 4->6:
BAB: +1
CMB: +2
BSB: +1/+1/+1
HP: +2d8 + 2 (+11 avg)
SP: +8
Class features: +1 to flurries, +10 ft speed, +1 bonus feat, high jump, purity of body, slow fall 30, +1 Ki point
Added together:
BAB: -1 (but +1 flurry)
CMB: 0 (+1 flurry)
BSB: 0/0/0
HP: 0
SP: +4
Other:
Spd 50 ft.
Melee two +1 kamas +10/+10 or +8/+8/+8 (1d6+5)
or unarmed strike +9 or +8/+8 (1d8+4)
Ranged composite longbow +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +5; CMB +11 (trip +13)
Bravery and Armor training aren't much to lose. Fighter feat for Monk feat. Jumping, immunities, and a ki point aren't that big a deal either.
I'm not sure what your Fighter bonus feat was, Improved Initiative?
I'd suggest perhaps Mobility for the Monk bonus, and I'm not sure what for your 7th level - you will lose Greater Trip unfortunately, without the BAB prereq. Broaden out with Improved Disarm? Or Wind stance? Perhaps even Dazzling Display.
I'm not saying "you should have done this", just putting up the comparison.
Majuba,
For a 2-level comparison, you're right on the mark (I really did want that Greater Trip, though!). Over the life of the character, though, with ~13 more levels to go, I have no intention of trading a feat every 2 levels... and much better BAB (those flurry penalty reductions don't come all that often)... and weapon training... all in exchange for being able to jump really far, being immune to poison, and being able to talk to animals. And, honestly, a 40-ft. move (60 ft. with a ki point) is fast enough; there's really no need to increase it to 200 ft., or whatever.
See, the thing is, monk has nothing going for it in the long run, except for base unarmed damage and stunning fist. The SR isn't near good enough to matter at the levels you get it, and by the time you become immune to "X person" spells at 20th level, all casters will be using "X monster" spells anyway, for the higher save DCs. Quivering palm is only 1/week, and the DC is too low. Overall, it's an exceptionally unappealing smorgasbord of leftover class features that no one could figure out what to do with. "I know! We'll make a Leftover class!" "Well, no one will take it with a name like that. Call it a 'monk,' instead, that sounds cooler!"
Lots.
I get what you're saying. A couple minor points, just to consider:
The flurry reduction finishes at 9th, which keeps you going on comparative BAB until Monk12, at Monk 13 and 17 you lose one more BAB each compared to fighter. Still, that's quite a while.
Also, flurry adds another primary attack at.. 11th? - that's rather a nice add to make up.
I disagree that the SR isn't effective, but enh.
Oh - and your DM let you add Armor training to bracers of mage armor??
Oh - and your DM let you add Armor training to bracers of mage armor??
Unless he reads this and decides not to! That's his call to make.
I did read this. I'm thinking it over. What do you have to bribe me with?
I did read this. I'm thinking it over. What do you have to bribe me with?
Just remember, if he doesn't get killed off, you may be running him for the original adventure after Chimera Cove...
Well then buff him up good so I don't have to do much. However, that may work against me as you can change the monsters we come up against so he is ineffectual again.
No problem there; as the author of Part III, I can guarantee there are no monsters in the entire adventure (unless someone plays a half-orc). That's not to say there won't be any fighting or killing, however...
The only way I might consider bringing in a BUHO is if your character somehow dies. I will try to not do that intentionally though. I cannot be responsible if he happens to step in front of China's character as she fires her bow though. I mean defecation happens. <shrugs>
The only way I might consider bringing in a BUHO is if your character somehow dies. I will try to not do that intentionally though. I cannot be responsible if he happens to step in front of China's character as she fires her bow though. I mean defecation happens. <shrugs>
Heh, first she steals my ogre kill in 2nd D, now she shoots me in the back...
What time tomorrow?
HD says 1 pm tomorrow.
Oh - and your DM let you add Armor training to bracers of mage armor??Unless he reads this and decides not to! That's his call to make.
Oops! sorry! :)
I am the DM for Tower of the Last Baron and Treasure of Chimera Cove. I have looked at the description of Armor Training and Bracers of Armor. I have no problem allowing the Class Feature with a Magic Item. I mean if Bracers can have armor abilities added to them why can’t they be treated as armor for the Armor Training class feature.
If it turns out to be too powerful Kirth and I will come up with a correction.
Just my 2 cp.
If it turns out to be too powerful Kirth and I will come up with a correction. Just my 2 cp.
Those 2 coppers are worth a portable hole full of platinum. That's why I'm happy with this group: we talk together and come up with workable solutions, instead of trying to put things over on each other.
The last few groups I DM’ed for consisted of mainly new players or ones with little experience. That is one reason I am very pleased with this group also. I am learning from a couple of Grognard’s and am not constantly trying to rein in the overachiever’s. It is refreshing to be able to relax and not have to rework everyone’s character sheets.
Again, just my 2 cp.
MY expereince with monk is this:
there are a few things they need back from 1e,
1) give them back bonus to damage with melee weapons, so melee weapons can still be viable at higher levels with the monks.
2) give them back weapons they used to have like the spear, and let them use scimitars and shields (shaolin monks have trained with shields and scimitars for 1000s of years)
Let monks use spiked chain as a class weapon (no feat needed)
The new shield feats added to the better ac of a shield with a monk would make it enough better to keep him alive.
right now he's a meat shield without the "shield"
can we say meat magnet?
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Curse you all, now I really want to get in on your games. XP
Dude, I always put out a fresh roll of TP and most of the time have an ample supply of beer in the fridge.
Silverhair, Kirth, I do want to order (or get carry out) something other than pizza this week though. Any ideas?
Oh, yeah, lest the thread be moved: Monks need work. Fer realz...
We could always stop by Ming's on Montrose for Chinese takeout.
Silverhair, Kirth, I do want to order (or get carry out) something other than pizza this week though.
Thank god. Chinese would be fine with me. I was thinking Wing Stop last week, but on reconsideration, the sauce tends to get all over your modules and character sheets... no good.
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Dude, I always put out a fresh roll of TP and most of the time have an ample supply of beer in the fridge.Silverhair, Kirth, I do want to order (or get carry out) something other than pizza this week though. Any ideas?
Order some really hot curry. Just remember to put that roll of toilet paper in the fridge first.
Order some really hot curry. Just remember to put that roll of toilet paper in the fridge first.
China and I would be the only ones who ate it. And we need that toilet paper: Derek hasn't yet grokked to the concept of "napkins." When I brought him a roll of Bounty paper towels, the dude looked at it like it was some kind of alien artifact. ;)
I hear Hunan Village delivers. I can pick up a menu from Texas Pizza who delivers and they have other things than pizza, like sandwiches, burgers, salads, and I don't know what all. I have a little to contribute, it's too near the end of the month. I get paid once at the first.
TriOmegaZero wrote:
The four hour drive Mappoint says it is might be a little much every weekend. But we will see.
Personally, I think you might be surprised at how friendly these people are.
BTW I just read that Ming's is closed. Bummer they have good fried rice ( Chicken and Shrimp).
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Would This monk be better?
1 Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Monk training, Monk's Wisdom
2 Monk training
3 Evasion
4 Monk training, Slow fall, Unarmed Strike (+1,19-20)
5 Leap of the Heavens, Monk training
6 Monk training
7 Monk training
8 Unarmed Strike (+2)
9 Improved Evasion, Monk's Stride (10ft)
10 Monk training,
11 Monk training
12 Monk training, Unarmed Strike (+3, 18-20)
13 Monk training
14 Monk training
15 Monk training
16 Monk training, Unarmed Strike (+4), Monk's Stride (15ft)
17 Monk training, Tongue of the Sun & Moon
18 Monk training
19 Empty Body
20 Perfect self, Fall from the Heavens, Unarmed Strike (+5,17-20)
Monk’s Wisdom The monk uses wisdom in place of Str for attacks and Combat Maneuvers.
Monk Training this replaces the monk bonus feats, by adding special monk powers in addition to feats. Ki Powers may also be chosen with Monk Training.
Slow Fall safe distance 5'/level. At level 20 this increases to any distance (fall from the heavens).
Unarmed Strike A monk becomes more deadly as he increases in level. His unarmed attacks gain an enhancement bonus and he becomes more accurate at delivering critical strikes.
Leap of the Heavens - renamed High Jump.
Monk's Stride A monk's ability to move quickly is transferred to his ability to move in combat. At level 9, a monk may make a 10ft step instead of a 5ft step, this increases to 15ft at level 16. In addition a monk has full control of his body, and is allowed to move in any direction during a charge.
1st:
Feats: Caught off-guard, Combat Reflexes, Dazzling Display, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, Stunning Fist, Throw Anything.
Abilities: Spear Hand, Manriki Gusari Training, Tao of the Blade, Monk Spear/Staff training, Quick stand, Trap Sense.
Quick stand: as rogue’s stand up ability
Trap Sense: as rogue.
Manriki Gusari Training:
Add Chain to monk weapons. The monk gains the ability to untangle his chain on a failed trip attack, preventing a counter-trip. The monk may also use the chain to gain a +4 bonus to deflect arrows and to AC as a deflection bonus while in a defensive stance.
Purity of the Body (5th) as current monk ability
Spear Hand - Unarmed strikes are considered piercing weapons, in addition to blunt.
Tao of the Blade - add the following weapons to the list of monk weapons. Scimitar, short sword, long sword, falchion.
Monk Spear/staff Training: Add Long Spear to the list of monk weapons, in addition, you gain a +4 to disarm, trip and deflect arrows attack rolls when using quarterstaff or long spear.
6th:
Feats: Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Mobility
Abilities: Crouching Tiger Paw, Dragon Tail Sweep, Eagle's Claw, Flying Double Kick, Grappling strike, Uncanny Dodge
Crouching Tiger Paw - The target must make a Reflex Save or have its movement restricted to 5' in all modes. (Flying creatures with maneuverability less than perfect may stall and fall and will need to make an appropriate Fly check to stay airborn).(Idea from Squirrelloid’s monk)
Dragon Tail Sweep: Standard Action. A Strong kick to the lower leg. The attack has a chance to knock your opponent prone in addition to damage. A successful strike initiates a trip maneuver using CMB+DMG.
Eagle’s Talons – Unarmed attacks considered blunt and slashing. On a critical causes 1 point bleed damage, bleeding stacks until healed.
Flying Double Kick - At the end of a charge, you may make two attacks with double Wis bonus.
Grappling Strike – A monk with this ability may initiate a grapple after a successful unarmed strike.
Uncanny dodge: as Rogue ability
10th:
Feats: Improved Critical (not unarmed), Medusa's wrath, Snatch arrows, spring attack. Abilities: Bend like the reeds, Dragon’s Claws, Drunken Rabbit Defense, Iron Broom Sweep, Improved Uncanny Dodge
Bend like the reeds: as rogue’s Defensive roll ability.
Diamond Body (11th) as current monk ability
Diamond Soul(13th) as current monk ability
Dragon's Claws - During a Flurry of Blows, 2 consecutive strikes allow the monk to rend his opponent, causing maximum damage.
Drunken Rabbit Defense - Until the start of his next turn all attacks against him which miss cause the creature who attacked him to become fatigued. Fatigued creatures that become fatigued become exhausted as normal. This must be used as a standard action with full defense (Squirrelloid)
Improved Uncanny Dodge: As Rogue ability
Iron Broom Sweep: The monk is ability to make a trip attack against 3 adjacent opponents.
Strike the unseen:12th level
2 Ki - Imbue unarmed attacks with the ghost touch quality for 1 round/2 monk levels.
14th: Feats: Vital Strike.
Abilities: Crashing Wave Strike
Crashing Wave Strike: This devastating full round action consists of two attacks, if both attacks hit, initiate a trip maneuver with CMB+dmg
18th: Feats: Improved Vital Strike.
Abilities: Timeless Body – as current monk ability
Ki Powers Ki Pool = Monk level + wisdom (sorry 1/2 monk level was too low)
Unless otherwise noted, each ki maneuver is activated as a swift action after dealing damage to a foe with an unarmed strike or monk's weapon and requires 1 ki to activate. The DC for all saves is 10 + 1/2 Character Level + Wis Mod
4th Agility of the Mantis, Coiled Viper Strike, Strength of the Bull, Ring the Bell, Rising Sun Strike, Monkey Breaks the Melon, Strength of the Tiger, Tough as the Rat, Wholeness of Body.
Coiled Viper Strike - The target must make a Fortitude Save or be nauseated until the end of the Monk's next turn.
Monkey Breaks the Melon- If the monk connects and deals damage with 2 or more attacks against one opponent he may activate Monkey Breaks the Melon as a swift action against that opponent at the cost of 1 ki. The opponent must make a fortitude save or be Confused until the end of the Monk's next turn. Creatures immune to criticals are immune to this extra damage.
Ring the Bell - Use a Ki point to make a reach attack as a full round action. This attack has a reach of 10 @ level 6. 20 @10. 30@15 and 40@ 20.
Focused Strike: 1 ki As a Standard action, make a single attack or maneuver at double wisdom bonus.
Rising Sun Strike - The target must make a Reflex Save or be dazed for a number of rounds equal to the Monk's wisdom modifier.
Strength of the Tiger – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his strength for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 strength. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Agility of the Mantis – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his dexterity for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 dexterity. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Tough as the Rat – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his CON for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 CON. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Clever as the Monkey – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his INT for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 INT. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Wise as the Dragon – This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his WIS for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 WIS. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Charming as the XXXXX-This allows a monk to use Ki to increase his CHA for 1 round/2 monk levels. 1 ki/+2 CHA. May gain +4 at level 10, and +6 at level 16.
Wholeness of body: As written, it just becomes an optional choice.
12th: Abundant Step, Crippling Strike, Iron Body,
Fist of the Elements.
Abundant Step: As written, just becomes a Ki ability, and becomes a move action.
Crippling Strike – Use Ki to cause Str or Dex dmg when you connect with an unarmed attack as a swift action. (costs 1 Ki to inflict 1d6 STR or Dex) Fort save to resist.
Fist of the Elements: 12th level
1 Ki - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
3 Ki - imbue unarmed attacks with an elemental burst quality (flaming, frost, acid, or shock) for 1 round/2 monk levels.
Iron Body – gain DR5/- for 1 round as a swift action per Ki spent.
15th: Adamantine Body, Deadly Venom Strike, Halves Become Whole, Quivering Palm
Adamantine Body - gain DR 10/- for 1 round as a swift action using 2 Ki.
Deadly Venom Strike – After a successful unarmed attack, as a swift action, may use 2 Ki to inflict d6 CON dmg. Fort save to resist.
Halves Become Whole - The monk receives a second swift action each round, which may only be used to activate Ki maneuvers. The monk may never activate the same Ki maneuver more than once in a given round, but may activate two different ones.
Quivering Palm: As written except it drains the monk of all Ki when he performs it.
All other monk attributes remain the same.
AC from Wisdom
AC Bonus
SAVES
BAB and HD
Extra movement
This is version 2.0, I started it in Alpha, I just hope Jason takes some of my ideas and runs with them.
I had a thought to increase the monks effective attack values, what if unarmed strikes used WIS+STR or DEX (weapon finesse) for attacks?
Played again yesterday; I hit a total of once, for some minor amount of damage that had no effect whatsoever on any outcome. Oh, and I got to coup de grace some poor dude that the wizard had already taken out. In fact, I spent most of the session telling the wizard how to run his character (sorry, Sean!), because my turn consisted of (a) tumble around uselessly, or (b) flail around uselessly with weapons or maneuvers -- and meanwhile the wizard took out 3/4 and 1/1 of our opposition, respectively, singlehandedly.
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silverhair is VERY good about sitting down and hashing stuff out, if there is an obvious need. He's a pretty good GM in my estimation :)
He does seem to be a good guy by what I've read from him on here.
Perhaps he'll let you switch your monk levels over to a full B.A.B. in that case? I know you're attempting to playtest the beta monk, but at this point it's fairly obvious that there's something seriously wrong here.
I imagine the thread is way off track at this point, but I think part of the problem, besides twf and flurry, is that the OP stats are too conservative for a focused tripper. Granted, they are balanced for overall play, but a tripper (since we are going off of attack rolls) should focus more on STR and take a proficiency to use a flail or focus on Dex, take the weapon finesse feat and use a kama. A trip-focused character should aim for starting with a 18 or 20 (depending on race, rules set, etc) in either STR or Dex.
I imagine the thread is way off track at this point, but I think part of the problem, besides twf and flurry, is that the OP stats are too conservative for a focused tripper. Granted, they are balanced for overall play, but a tripper (since we are going off of attack rolls) should focus more on STR and take a proficiency to use a flail or focus on Dex, take the weapon finesse feat and use a kama. A trip-focused character should aim for starting with a 18 or 20 (depending on race, rules set, etc) in either STR or Dex.
That's a very cogent point... but one that I couldn't implement on a 20-point buy without either (a) nuking Dex for Str, which hinders acrobatics, initiative, AC, and ranged attacks; (b) nuking Str for Dex, which forces me to burn feats on maneuvers and finesse, and lowers damage output; or (c) nuking Int and Cha even further, which puts my one consistently useful attribute (skills) into the dumpster. Lousy options all around. In other words, multiple ability dependency syndrome is worse for the monk than for just about anyone else.
For the Dex/skills option, rogue is twice as good.
For the Str/tripper option, fighter is twice as good.
For a good mix, fighter/rogue is viable.
Monk is just lousy overall. Basically, you give up any pretense towards usefulness 99% of the time in exchange for some minor perks (Ooh! I don't get sick, and can run really fast!). Either the special abilities need to be ramped up an order of magnitude in terms of number and usefulness, or else the combat abilities need to be very, very seriously upgraded. Either way, you're pretty much overhauling the entire class.
I keep thinking of it this way:
If you take a monk, add 2 skill points/level, add 3/4 spellcasting progression, and add bardic performance, then what you have is a bard (albeit one with boots of striding and springing and better unarmed damage).
And a lot of people complain about the bard being sub-optimal.
I keep thinking of it this way:
If you take a monk, add 2 skill points/level, add 3/4 spellcasting progression, and add bardic performance, then what you have is a bard (albeit one with boots of striding and springing and better unarmed damage).
And a lot of people complain about the bard being sub-optimal.
Kirth, I think you have something there, that would make both classes better for me!
And just call it a bard.
I have much hate for this idea of the guitar strumming,tights wearing,poofy sleeve havin bard.
I say bring back the dark sun bard!
Take the bardic knowledge and spells of the mainstream bard.
throw in the assasin and the monk.
restrict the weapon selection, restrict armor to light
and call the monk,bard assassin, BARD!
(redo spell list too)
Anyone who wants to play the gay minstrel with the feather in his cap could play a minstrel variant.
But man, that would bring the assassin, the monk and the bard into something that you could actually play, and be cool!
I might even go so far as house rule that bard into my own game! Thanks Kirth!
EDIT: and this class could be any alignment (not necessarily evil or lawful)