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As a little companion piece to the 'General State of Science' thread I started, and as part of a quest to learn more about what life in Golarion is like, I figured I'd ask a series of questions about the laws of Golarion, mainly in those areas around the Inner Sea (as they are, for the most part, the more 'civilised' areas of Golarion). Naturally, there will be differences depending on where you talk about, but I'm sure there can be an overview of sorts.
I will point out that I am not a lawyer, or even a law student, so my knowledge of how the law works is rather limited. If someone who has more knowledge of that wants to weigh in on my questions, feel free. That means you, Sebastian. ;)
How developed is property law? Which nations actually treat people's property as private?
How is inheritance handled? Is it the First Son always, or something more advanced?
What about adventurers. How does the law treat them? Can private citizens walk around with weapons, or do they need to be registered? And by extension, do adventurers need to be registered?
Now for international relations. How are they handled? Are there embassies dotted around the various capital cities, and how common are they? How is extradition handled? Are there rules in place, or are such extraditions handled on an ad hoc basis?
Thanks in advance for any answers!
I don't think all the information is there, but some parts are known for some of the nations.
Korvosa, for example, has a resident ambassador from Cheliax.
I guess it's all a mix of the stuff we had in the last couple of millenia (and with we I mean the global we, and recent months are part of the last couple millenia) and fantasy stuff.
Some countries will have the 1st son rule, some will go with firstborn, some go with 1st daughter instead, some elect their leaders, some have merotocraties, and so on.
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We know there's embassies in Absalom as well from PFS scenarios. Not sure which nations are represented there but I'd bet the following nations have ambassadors everywhere:
Andoran
Cheliax
Qadira
Osirion
Taldor
Nex
While these nations have ambassadors in the 'major nations'
Absalom, Korvosa, Isger, Sargava, Molthune, Druma, Ustalav, Mendev, Numeria, Geb, Alkenstar, Brevoy, Jalmeray, Kyonin
The rest have few if any ambassadors out and about (Irrisen, Linnorm, Magnimar/Riddleport, Thuvia, Rahadoum, Razmiran, etc
Property Law is different everywhere. As is inheritance law, although most medieval countries had the male heirs inherit everything.
Obviously, there is little legal history on adventures. I suppose salvage laws maybe similar but.....
I would imagine there would be ambassadors although not necessarily embassies. Extradition is not an easy matter even in today's age.
I would imagine there would be ambassadors although not necessarily embassies. Extradition is not an easy matter even in today's age.
I have no particularly good source for the following information. It's stuff I've picked up over the years from lots of places, mostly to use in gaming. But this is my dubiously-informed understanding:
It's unlikely, if we want to apply real world historical precedents, that all the people who function as ambassadors hold that title. Generally countries would only send out ambassadors if they considered themselves a great power. The US didn't use them for its first century, instead relying on "Ministers to X". Minister is theoretically short for minister resident, who could also be called an envoy. He would head a legation. Ambassadors are likely, but not certain, to be ambassadors extraordinary and plenipotentiary. (Meaning they are direct personal representatives of the sovereign dispatching them to the sovereign receiving them and are to be treated as such.)
Diplomatic immunity is likely to be relatively well-respected, at least in peacetime. When at war the standard procedure is to seize the enemy's embassy, loot it for intelligence, and hold its staff until they can be exchanged for your staff held by the enemy...who did the same to you.
As for extradition? Maybe among countries that consider themselves to be sharing a common body of law (Imperial Taldan Law? Chelaxian law?) but as a practical matter pre-modern countries don't generally issue passports or travel papers except in extraordinary circumstances. If you can get yourself across a border, you're theoretically safe. Whether or not the state cares enough to get in the way of, or object to, the band of adventurers hired to bring you back is a separate issue. Unless you did something that counts as high treason, most nations would probably be content to outlaw you and be done.
It was also common practice to send emissaries and ambassadors for particular reasons, such as the negotiation of a new trade agreement or defense pact or whatnot, as opposed to keeping ambassadors in an embassy all the time although that did happen, of course
We know there's embassies in Absalom as well from PFS scenarios. Not sure which nations are represented there but I'd bet the following nations have ambassadors everywhere:
Andoran
Cheliax
Qadira
Osirion
Taldor
NexWhile these nations have ambassadors in the 'major nations'
Absalom, Korvosa, Isger, Sargava, Molthune, Druma, Ustalav, Mendev, Numeria, Geb, Alkenstar, Brevoy, Jalmeray, Kyonin
The rest have few if any ambassadors out and about (Irrisen, Linnorm, Magnimar/Riddleport, Thuvia, Rahadoum, Razmiran, etc
I can see the first list, except I don't quite get why Nex is in there.
How developed is property law? Which nations actually treat people's property as private?[snipped lots of other good questions]
One of the first questions one would need to ask is: are there states that employ written law, or does everyone follow the case law model? As written constitutions and statutes are something that hasn't really been around in the middle ages (apart from, maybe, canonic/church law), and seeing how Paizo is a US company, I would suggest that all civilized states use the case law system by default. Meaning: how detailed or loose the regulations are is largely dependent on how many precedent cases exist.
Some general assumptions, in no specific order:
- Frontier and/or 'less civilized' states and nations would probably have less regulations, and more of a 'might makes right' system in place. Also, such nations might pay no special attention to adventurers, as the very concept of adventuring 'for fun' might be foreign to them
- Taldor and Cheliax (especially the latter!) I picture as having very complex, overly bureaucratig legal systems, with thousands of decrees, rulings, cases etc. from way back when that still play a role 'today'
- Dictatorships would probably keep a lid on weapon use or 'unlicensed adventuring' more than oligarchies or a democracy would, as they live in constant fear of someone staging a coup.
But that may all be totally off the mark ;) we'll never know for sure until someone from Paizo chimes in on this.
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I think we need to bring this thread back from the dead...
I too had been wondering on the state of law, both internal and international in Golarion.
You can extrapolate some of it from the "government type" in the nation descriptions, but that doesn't give you much detail as to whether they work from a ruler's decree or from common law.
As far as internal law, you'd really have to go through the nations one-by-one, aside from general trends.
I actually did something like this specifically for the way I run Brevoy in my Kingmaker campaign (the link goes to my fan wiki for my game). I started with what little official material I had to go on (Brevoy is one of the less "fleshed-out" nations in the setting), looked at common trends of the larger world of Golarion, incorporated doctrine from the major churches of the nation, cultural influence from the neighboring River Kingdoms, some medieval common-law/loosely-feudal structure, and bits of Russian culture, since that's what Brevoy was based off of.
So let's give it a shot for Golarion...
How developed is property law?
Which nations actually treat people's property as private?
How is inheritance handled?
Is it the First Son always, or something more advanced?
This really depends on nation and social standing within that nation. The higher you are up on the social order, the more power you have to enforce your property rights.
From the looks of it, in places where the church of Abadar holds sway, you'd probably get your contracts and wills and stuff done through them and they'd enforce property law (Golarion doesn't have separation of church and state in most nations).
Rahadoum seems not to respect private property very much, what with their mass robbery of private merchant vessels for the sake of making a collectivized government-run merchant fleet. And considering they still have plagues, famines, and open slaver, apparently those profits aren't going to the people (big surprise).
I'd say the more "frontier-like" nations hold private property in much higher regard (particularly the River Kingdoms' "you have what you hold" law).
It seems from the various character backgrounds that 1st sons do get the lion's share of inheritance across a number of nations and cultures.
What about adventurers. How does the law treat them? Can private citizens walk around with weapons, or do they need to be registered? And by extension, do adventurers need to be registered?
Probably like mercenaries. Whether that means they're welcome as extra muscle or shunned as vagabond meddlers depends on the nation in question. More "tightly controlled" nations will probably not welcome the unpredictable elements that adventurers introduce into their societies, while those with ever-shifting landscapes of power will always have schemers looking to offer jobs to those with plausible deniability.
Open-carry laws, again, depend on the nation and how much of paranoid cowards the government is. Dictatorships obviously neither respect not trust their citizens, so outside the military, only the upper-crust nobility that brown-noses the rulers will carry weapons as a badge of station. On the other hand, frontier nations that are constantly under threat of attack may actually require every able-bodied citizen to be armed and train regularly in the militia, so that they may defend the land on a moment's notice.
As far as salvage (treasure) goes, it can be pretty much universally assumed that any local government is gonna want their cut in the form of taxes. Some (like Osirion) may have laws about "plundering cultural heritage", instead offering to buy from the tomb robbers "relic recoverers" any objects of historical value they may find, because in the words of Pathfinder Henry "Indiana" Jones Jr., "It belongs in a museum!"
Now for international relations. How are they handled? Are there embassies dotted around the various capital cities, and how common are they? How is extradition handled? Are there rules in place, or are such extraditions handled on an ad hoc basis?
That is a good question, and one that I was searching for an answer for when I found this thread.
It seems from the background text that several of the well-established nations have embassies with one another. Obviously, empires have embassies with their vassal states to keep an eye on things and issue orders and stuff.
Interestingly enough, the most well-detailed example of international law in Golarion I've founds so far is in the "bandit realms" of the River Kingdoms, with their agreed-upon River Freedoms and the Outlaw Council that the lords of the River Kingdoms are welcome to attend on neutral ground.
Considering how many character backstories have them "running away from the law in one country to make a new start elsewhere", I'd say there's probably little in the way of established extradition. Just don't show your face back where you originally went on the lam and you ought to be fine. Unless they send a bounty hunter or slayer after you.
I wonder if there's anything resembling maritime law in Golarion? You know - where the crews of ships are obligated to help each other in emergencies regardless of nationality, any harbor is open in a storm, coastal nations have the obligation to keep their waters free of pirates, and international waters can't be claimed as sovereign territory? (That's more or less the highlights of it). I ask because maritime law is one of the most ancient examples of international law in our own history with these basic tenets I mentioned being adhered to as far back as the dawn of sailing ships across the seas.
What about Laws and Customs of War? Does anyone know if there are any general trends on dealing with Prisoners of War? Or prohibitions on dishonorable tactics?
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My experience of over 16 years of studying and applying law in practice has led me to the conclusion that in an environment with dragons and undead, law is something that should be glossed over unless you want to have a big headache OR the entire table has minimum of a BA in law and is ready to discuss the finer points of what happens to the inheritance when somebody gets reincarnated.
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It can still be fun/relevant when done right. All sorts of quest hooks can be dangled w/ legal systems. Remember, just because you don't find use for a certain bit of background info, doesn't mean others don't.
"Hark, brave adventurers! I seek to reclaim ownership of my late uncle's estate, but his last will and testament rests with his body at the bottom of the haunted catacombs! Retrieve it for me, and you shall be most richly rewarded!"
Having a solid idea of what laws exist in the realm can also be a good GM tool to reign in players who decide to play "Chaotic A~$+%!#&" toward literally every single NPC they meet (which can get to be annoying at the game table), reminding them of the penalties for indiscriminately drawing weapons/spells on random civilians in town.
I should mention, as far as "registering", whether for adventuring or travel, it'll really depend on how much of a bureaucracy the nation has in place. Taldor and Cheliax, sure - they're sprawling empires. Frontier duchies, not so much.
It's also entirely reasonable to assume that the secular authorities have an "arrangement" with the churches and mages' guilds to "handle" spellcasters that break the law (since these organizations would have better resources for dealing with such transgressions).
Even in towns that let you openly carry weapons, there may reasonably be a law requiring them to be "peace-tied", unless you're a member of the guard or some other representative of official authority.
Likewise, upon entering someone's home as an invited guest, it is almost universally customary to "check your weapons at the door". This shows trust and respect - you neither plan on engaging in hostile behavior, nor do you expect to be attacked while under your host's protection (though that's not so much a law as a custom).
Adventurers with a "letter of Marque" from the local government would have authority to take deadly action against enemies of the state, operating as "privateers", killing and looting these enemies as they please.
With "writs of outlawry" anyone is free to take out those no longer under the protection of law, and in some states may have a civic duty to do so if they are able.
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I'll take up two issues, specifically Property Law and Weapons Laws.
First, if any law is developed at all I would say the most important would be how property ownership is decided and how it is divided and passed from one set of hands to another. In Avistan, just as in Medieval Europe, wealth appears to tied to the ownership of land and that which can be taken from it, either by farming, lumber, mining, etc. Though property laws can vary and be very simple or very Byzantine, one thing that is necessary to prevent internal division and outright civil war is the clear marking of boundaries between one person's land and another's. In most cases, property ownership may ultimately rest with a sovereign, such as a King/Queen/Emperor/Grand Duke, etc. who owns all the land in a realm, but allows nobles to care for it, and pass down their ownership (or caretaker) rights to their descendants. If the Noble who has title to the land betrays the sovereigns trust, ownership rights can be legally stripped by the sovereign and transferred to other more worthy nobles. This would probably be the case in Cheliax, Taldor and Brevoy. Other times, the sovereign entity may not be a Monarch, but the state itself such as in Andoran or Galt.
With regard to the issue of weapons laws, and whether or not someone would be allowed to wear armor and carry around swords, bows, axes, I would say it depends entirely on the region. However, even though Golarion (or Avistan to be precise) is a something of a pale reflection of Medieval/Renaissance Europe, keep in mind that Golarion is a world wherein trolls, bugbears, dragons, and orcs exist and prey upon people.
It would make little sense (even in the more authoritarian countries) to limit people's access to arms in order to allow them to defend themselves, unless that authoritarian government invests a huge amount of money and resources garrisoning every city, town and village with soldiers loyal to the government to keep them safe. Keep in mind having large standing armies is hugely expensive, and is a relatively modern invention with only a few notable exceptions in history (such as the Roman Republic and Empire). Further, many powerful nations may depend on calling up levies (the Medieval/Renaissance equivalent of an involuntary draft) to fill up the ranks of their armies when war appears imminent, with the nobility serving as officers.
This is my long, roundabout way of saying that I believe that most nations in Golarion would be very liberal compared to Earth concerning the ownership of arms. In fact, depending on the region, ownership of arms may very well be mandatory, either for the common defense, or to be kept in case subjects/citizens are called up for war. One of the more famous examples of such a Medieval mandatory arms ownership law is England's Statute of Winchester of 1285, which commanded all freemen between the ages of 15 and 60 to purchase and keep arms and armor, with specifications of what they were to buy based on their level of wealth. At the very least, I would imagine any community of significant size would have a militia that are the de facto if not de jure police/military force and that would train with weapons regularly to respond to raiders, bandits and wandering monsters.
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I think the impact of magic would definitely alter laws in some unusual ways, especially when Raise Dead (and related spells), Reincarnate and actual Undeath become issues.
Each country may have different ways of dealing with them too - a country where undead hold rulership positions is going to have a different take on Undead Property Rights than, say, a country that isn't keen on undead running around.
I also think Golarion, as a whole, is probably more gender neutral when it comes to inheritance and estates - rather than the first born son inheriting an estate, it may be more the norm of "first born" (period). Using Earth as an analog (and it's historically patriarchal bent in the last couple of thousand years in certain cultures - and yes, I know, that's an over simplification) isn't really a good fit for Golarion and it's gods.
Also - just a kudos to Voin and Louis, especially that link to the Statute of Winchester - it was worth the read, thanks!
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I think the impact of magic would definitely alter laws in some unusual ways, especially when Raise Dead (and related spells), Reincarnate and actual Undeath become issues.
Each country may have different ways of dealing with them too - a country where undead hold rulership positions is going to have a different take on Undead Property Rights than, say, a country that isn't keen on undead running around.
I also think Golarion, as a whole, is probably more gender neutral when it comes to inheritance and estates - rather than the first born son inheriting an estate, it may be more the norm of "first born" (period). Using Earth as an analog (and it's historically patriarchal bent in the last couple of thousand years in certain cultures - and yes, I know, that's an over simplification) isn't really a good fit for Golarion and it's gods.
Also - just a kudos to Voin and Louis, especially that link to the Statute of Winchester - it was worth the read, thanks!
You are quite welcome, Dracovar. It was my pleasure.
Likewise. Too many "fantasy settings" just throw "vaguely medieval kingdoms" and magic and monsters into a blender and expect it to "just work" without giving much or any thought to the ramifications those things have on living in that setting. And sometimes it's glossed over and doesn't matter.
But this thread is is for the times it does. For when we want a fictional world that satisfies our Willing Suspension of Disbelief.
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Yup. But for the most part in Golarion (other than in a few countries with particularly backwards governments), it seems the trend is toward more "loose remnants of feudalism" (kings, lords, knights, yadda) and Renaissance era trappings of civilization - guilds, institutions of higher learning, etc., especially in the more metropolitan areas.
My experience of over 16 years of studying and applying law in practice has led me to the conclusion that in an environment with dragons and undead, law is something that should be glossed over unless you want to have a big headache OR the entire table has minimum of a BA in law and is ready to discuss the finer points of what happens to the inheritance when somebody gets reincarnated.
This was actually a plot point in a game I ran.
Basically the gods had ressurrected all the honored warrior dead in preparation for the coming final battle between good and evil.
Well, unfortunately, all the current honored warriors with their inherited arms and armor and titles did not take kindly to the idea of having to give them back.
Those only 7 or eight generations removed from the youngest were even more displeased.
Beedless to say the dwarven courts were packed full of angry naked dwarves wanting their gear back.
angry naked dwarves
Dibs on band/porn studio name. ;P
angry naked dwarvesDibs on band/porn studio name. ;P
"10,000 short, angry, hairy men"?
Mmm, international law. And national law too.
Again, some nations are going to be more concerned with things than not, and I think this is begging for the law vs chaos alignment pointer. The Hold of Belkzen's method of property disputes is likely to not resemble that of Cheliax. (I now imagine an orcish 'lawyer' or 'judge' with a 'gavel' that does 2d6 + 1.5xStr bludgeoning damage.)
I'd lean towards the equal gender inheritance thing too, unless you want to point out one nation as weird in a way. Weird good, weird bad, or weird weird.
As far as maritime law, you're probably on your own. Think Golden Age of Piracy at best for coordination, perhaps. Then again, there's always custom. Custom can at times prove stronger than law -- some laws are meant to be broken, but to go against what you've always done going back ages? That's just wrong.