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So Monk weapons are co-opted farm tools. The only thing different between them and the simple weapons is the funny names? Oh, and they get their own long entries and information. Please recombine them with the normal equivalents, and make any special abilities they have in the hands of a monk something which is a monk class feature.
Are there reasons not to do this?
Realy should be done, it's been mentionned many times by many people.
You'd actually save a few lines here and there.
I don't know if it could wreck backward compatibility?
I don't know if it could wreck backward compatibility?
Backward compatability is easily fixed by folding the exotic name into the equivalent simple weapon description. The description for the sickle would indicate that this weapon includes the kama, etc.
Though I repeat myself, I agree: say no to exotic monk weapons, just use the darn European equivalent. (Oh, and rename the falchion.)
Here's a good question that has been asked in a number of other threads recently: why are Monks forbidden from using their Flurry ability with all of the weapons that they are proficient in? And why is their pool of Monk weapons so limited? I don't think that allowing Monks to Flurry with a longsword is that unreasonable, do you?
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Here's a good question that has been asked in a number of other threads recently: why are Monks forbidden from using their Flurry ability with all of the weapons that they are proficient in? And why is their pool of Monk weapons so limited? I don't think that allowing Monks to Flurry with a longsword is that unreasonable, do you?
In my Pathfinder Game I'm letting the Monk Flurry with their Temple Sword. It's actually not unbalanced or anything.
In general I'd suggest that it be added to the Ki Focus weapon special.
Or better yet, a pair of spiked gauntlets (note, just the gauntlets, not any form of real armor)
That way we don't have to worry about all the hassles involved with trying to give monks ways of enchanting their unarmed strikes.
I don't mind Monks having unarmed strikes that can be enchanted by Magic Weapon or Magic Fang. I'm just wondering why using a sword is a no-no.
Magic Weapon/magic fang were never my problem Sueki. It was trying to get permanent enhancement bonuses on a monk's unarmed strikes at a cost equal to that for a sword.
My apologies - I misunderstood what you were saying! My bad.
Yes to the OP. I've noticed that the dirk and the kris knife aren't exotic weapons. They're just curved daggers with funny names. So why do flails and sickles with funny names warrant separate exotic weapon entries?
Actually a few variant names in some entries might help flavor. Ex.: Under Kukri: Dirk, Kriss.
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I don't mind Monks having unarmed strikes that can be enchanted by Magic Weapon or Magic Fang. I'm just wondering why using a sword is a no-no.Or better yet, a pair of spiked gauntlets (note, just the gauntlets, not any form of real armor)
That way we don't have to worry about all the hassles involved with trying to give monks ways of enchanting their unarmed strikes.
I love using a feat to add a weapon to a monk's list.... 3.5 did that in a supplement, Dragon or something, for polearms and a couple others. I totally LOVED the polearm monks and their BIG damage with a high strength and overhand chop. It might be a little overbalanced though. Start throwing Ki flurries at opponents 10' away, then AoO when opponents are moving in close to you, etc... they're very powerful, cool but powerful!!
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I love using a feat to add a weapon to a monk's list.... 3.5 did that in a supplement, Dragon or something, for polearms and a couple others. I totally LOVED the polearm monks and their BIG damage with a high strength and overhand chop. It might be a little overbalanced though. Start throwing Ki flurries at opponents 10' away, then AoO when opponents are moving in close to you, etc... they're very powerful, cool but powerful!!
And it's a Classic Image from Kungfu movies as well. Yeah there should be a feat, but maybe also extend the Ki special quality to do that as well?
I do have a thought. Make monks proficient only in simple weapons... and make them capable of flurrying with whatever weapon they are proficient with.
I (and others) have lobbied for exactly this at great length, during the A1 - A3 playtests, and been met with no reply. I don't think Jason really cares about the monk weapons, when compared with the other, more pressing issues on his plate.
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I (and others) have lobbied for exactly this at great length, during the A1 - A3 playtests, and been met with no reply. I don't think Jason really cares about the monk weapons, when compared with the other, more pressing issues on his plate.
I can't imagine that this is less pressing then how a backpack works.
So Monk weapons are co-opted farm tools. The only thing different between them and the simple weapons is the funny names? Oh, and they get their own long entries and information. Please recombine them with the normal equivalents, and make any special abilities they have in the hands of a monk something which is a monk class feature.
Are there reasons not to do this?
Here's something I posted in another part of the forum:
My thought on this mirrors what someone else has said already.
1) Drop the current list of monk-specific weapons (kama, nunchaku, siangham (sp?)), since several of them overlap with simple weapons.
2) Give monks proficiency in all simple weapons plus the shuriken.
3) Give monks the ability to flurry with all simple, non-reach melee weapons plus the shuriken. (I'll explain why I'm specifying non-reach momentarily.)
4) Create a feat or class feature for the monk called Monastic Weapon. This would allow for a monk two add an unusual weapon to their repetoir, reflecting personal focus or the specific weapon of a particular order:
Requirements: Base Attack +4, Improved Unarmed Strike, the Flurry of Blows class feature
Choose a non-reach martial or exotic melee weapon. You become proficient in this weapon (if you aren't already) and can perform a Flurry of Blows with it. (Note: I could also see long or short bows being viable for this feat/feature.)
(This keeps people from attempting to just take a level of fighter to diversify their weapons, thus becoming uber-broken.)
Off with their heads I say. And I agree that monks should be able to use other weapons. Maybe with a feat: Improved Flurry or whatever. Proficiency (and maybe even focus) being required. Or make it part of flurry. What if monks start swinging scythes around like no tomorrow? Or spiked chains? Chain weapons are so monk!
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People care about me. I'm so happy!Backward compatability is easily fixed by folding the exotic name into the equivalent simple weapon description. The description for the sickle would indicate that this weapon includes the kama, etc.
I don't know if it could wreck backward compatibility?
Careful, they might take you to the Vet.
I have been torn with this idea. On the one hand I think monks should have access to eastern exotic weapons (besides ones mentioned in the PHB) to fill out the archtype. On the other hand, many of these weapons add bonuses to things like trip or disarm etc, and it makes sense that to master these things it requires more training. Yet, several weapons in the basic write up for monks can do this as well
(although you need appropriate feats to make this effective).
Maybe, instead of having to take exotic weapon feat to create a more weapon styled-monk for each weapon the character wanted to use, we could have alternate monks; some use weapons, some don't and others (generic monk) have a mixture.
e.g. Generic monk from PHB - Shaolin style- for lack of a better word.
open hand master - does not use weapons and gets bonus feats based on unarmed strike faster than generic monk does, but cannot attack with weapons - like taboo; similiar to Wu Gen. I'm thinking of a character like Chin from the Destroyer novel/Remo Williams movie.
Weapon Master- gets a series of exotic weapon feats, can still flurry, and has other specialized feat trees for a few of these weapons. down side is they cannot advance their unarmed damage or use their flurry unarmed.
I have no mechanics to share, but I think these alternates could be worked out without reinventing the fighter or making them munchkins.
Suggestions?
I have been torn with this idea. On the one hand I think monks should have access to eastern exotic weapons (besides ones mentioned in the PHB) to fill out the archtype.
I think the standard weapon loadout is decent enough - weaponised peasant tools that fit the image of the peasant defender during a time where only nobles were allowed real weapons. I do think they should be able to get learning on the rest, like swords. There's plenty of jutsus/dos dealing with all sorts of weapons - kyudo, kendo, yarido, nintendo....
I also think that if we can survive the katana just being a bastard sword game-mechanically, we can survive a kama just being a sickle. I mean - A KATANA! OH MY KAMI! SAMURAI SWORD! THEY CAN CUT UP TANKS!
On the other hand, many of these weapons add bonuses to things like trip or disarm etc, and it makes sense that to master these things it requires more training. Yet, several weapons in the basic write up for monks can do this as well
Can't you disarm and trip etc with any sort of weapon if you're trained? I'm not sure, but if not, just change it - maybe just for the monk, or make it a feat he can get as a bonus feat. So a monks who's gone native in western Avistan and cannot find a weapon with a funny name can pick up a regular flail off a peasant, weaponise it, and monk-fu the hell out of some oppressors.
OP: Agreed.
The defining feature of monk weapons (in an Asian context) is that they are simple, not "exotic".
They should have simple weapon proficiency.
Off with their heads I say. And I agree that monks should be able to use other weapons. Maybe with a feat: Improved Flurry or whatever. Proficiency (and maybe even focus) being required. Or make it part of flurry. What if monks start swinging scythes around like no tomorrow? Or spiked chains? Chain weapons are so monk!
I think IMPROVED FLURRY with prereq. of weapon proficiency is an AMAZING idea! :D
I also agree with and think it would save quite a bit of space if the weapons got folded into their european counterparts and get a textual mention under the Monk class or weapon descriptions.
The Katana/Bastard sword comparison is EXACTLY why this should happen. Kaeyoss you are on the ball! Go, Go, Go!
(Kama - Sickle, Nunchuku - Light Flail, Tonfa - Club)
Shurikens still lack an acceptable match however, the only thing that comes remotely close is the Dart from 2E.
Thanks for the comments.
What you guys said above I understand. Simple weapons were what were available in a historical real-world context. Yes. But if we stick to the real world contexts, we wouldn't have the game that we all love. I was thinking more in terms of flavor (the long tradition of Kung-fu/mystic movies).
And in terms of flavor, there are indeed great stories that can be told with monks wielding exotic weapons or using special styles. In terms of game mechanics, maybe that means only selecting the right feats, or allowing monks to gain fighter levels and still continue advancing as monks. I am sure some would simply suggest having a fighter with appropriate feat selections and unarmed strikes. Mechanically, maybe that would all work.
But the game is not just about the mechanics. We all know that, though many of us focus on it (exclusively for some). So for the sake of flavor, I will try to tweak things a bit I think.
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Wow. This seems to be a popular question all of a sudden.Blast from the past!
I have a question regarding Temple sword. It says: "A temple sword is a monk special weapon. This gives a monk wielding a temple sword special options."
But nowhere is said a monk gets proficiency with it. Is a monk intended to be proficient with Temple sword?
Actually both Navdi and I were wondering about the thing on an IRC channel and happened to post about it at the same time. :)
WHAT the HECK IS a temple sword? Beside the iconic monk character sheet, I see it no where else?
The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it? In that case, make monks proficient with simple weapons. Kamas become sickles (simple weapons); nunchaku become light flails (likewise), etc. Make monks able to flurry with simple weapons. Add a feat, "Temple Weapon," that gives proficiency with, and allows them to flurry with, a martial or exotic weapon. Now you can have spear-flurrying monks, polearm monks, etc., and you've saved a bunch of useless lines on the weapons tables.
The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it?
Not quite; it's more like a short sword that you can trip with (IIRC). Kind of a super-sickle.
I agree that a "Can Flurry With Weapon X" feat (or line of feats) is fine; they have several of those in Eberron. I'm not sure I like the visual effect of a monk flurrying with a greatsword or battleaxe, though.
The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it? In that case, make monks proficient with simple weapons. Kamas become sickles (simple weapons); nunchaku become light flails (likewise), etc. Make monks able to flurry with simple weapons. Add a feat, "Temple Weapon," that gives proficiency with, and allows them to flurry with, a martial or exotic weapon. Now you can have spear-flurrying monks, polearm monks, etc., and you've saved a bunch of useless lines on the weapons tables.
Kirth, YES! Me likey!
Ive always liked the idea of the polearm monk (from the 1e days) not sure why the monk lost the polearm.
NOone takes the polearm, but monk used to get it on his list. (in contrast for fighter or paladin that got every weapon)
From the monks limited list, the polearm was attractive, and by current rules with reach and AoOs. Having the polearm and being able to flurry with it would go along way to helping the monk out.
See what the draw back to the reach weapon? Cant attck adjacent foes right? well thats what kicks are for!
So a polearm toting monk would rock! (guess you can already do that with human WP, but need flurry combo too!)
BRING back the monk POLEARM , bring back the monk polearm, BRING BACK THE MONK POLEARM!!!
Not quite; it's more like a short sword that you can trip with (IIRC). Kind of a super-sickle.
Easy fix. Add the following to maneuver training: "a monk can make trip attacks using any weapon with which he is proficient." Then make the temple sword a short sword. Done.
I personally have no problem with a battlexe flurry, but if you do, some sort of language in the Temple Weapon feat prohibiting, say, greatswords and greataxes would certainly be appropriate. Maybe non-reach weapons above a certain weight limit are prohibited?
The worst part about the monk weapons is (for me) that it ruins the flavor of real world monk weapons, and how they developed. And that kind of thing is important to my desire to play the class.
The worst part about the monk weapons is (for me) that it ruins the flavor of real world monk weapons, and how they developed. And that kind of thing is important to my desire to play the class.
I second that plus, leave oriental weapons IN the orient.
Oriental adventures RUINED to the monk, and its been messed up ever since.
There are some very good things of 1e that the monk needs back (polearms and spears are amoung them, along with damage progression for melee weapons)
And Kirth,I REALLY like the idea of flurry with shuriken!
And Kirth,I REALLY like the idea of flurry with shuriken!
Under my proposal, that's one feat: Temple Weapon (Shuriken) would give proficiency and flurry. To eliminate the feat cost, we'd need to add a monk class feature doing the same thing (or make it a bonus feat at 1st level).
And Kirth,I REALLY like the idea of flurry with shuriken!Under my proposal, that's one feat: Temple Weapon (Shuriken) would give proficiency and flurry. To eliminate the feat cost, we'd need to add a monk class feature doing the same thing (or make it a bonus feat at 1st level).
Huh? A monk can already do a flurry with shuriken. So are you proposing to remove that ability and require a feat to do it?
Huh? A monk can already do a flurry with shuriken. So are you proposing to remove that ability and require a feat to do it?
Yes. In my opinion, the shuriken (unlike the kama) should remain an exotic weapon, not become a simple one (and you should be able to chuck more than one of them as a standard action). Like I said, if someone was really keen on making sure that all monks could flurry with them, they could give monks Temple Weapon (Shuriken) as a bonus feat at 1st level in their campiagn, and it's done.
I'm ok with Monks flurrying with shuriken - and most other weapons, for that matter. :)
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The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it?Not quite; it's more like a short sword that you can trip with (IIRC). Kind of a super-sickle.
I was waiting until I got back to my books before I said this officially, but I have so I can:
The temple sword is a 1d8 slashing weapon with a crit range of 19-20/x2, which I think makes it basically "a longsword for monks," though you can indeed make trip attacks with it (though not with any bonus).
The temple sword is just a longsword for monks, isn't it?Not quite; it's more like a short sword that you can trip with (IIRC). Kind of a super-sickle.I was waiting until I got back to my books before I said this officially, but I have so I can:
The temple sword is a 1d8 slashing weapon with a crit range of 19-20/x2, which I think makes it basically "a longsword for monks," though you can indeed make trip attacks with it (though not with any bonus).
Whoops -- I thought it did 1d6. I stand corrected.
Yeah, so instead of a separate "temple sword" weapon listing, we'd use the Temple Weapon (longsword) feat, and get the same effect for less headache.
Here's a thought:
Move all the base monk weapons back to simple weapons (except shuriken which is a pretty unique in its use). However, these same weapons are treated as Exotic weapons for what the monk can do with them (somewhat similar to the way that the Bastard Sword is a martial weapon that can be used differently when bought up as an exotic). Then allow the monk to use any weapon he is proficient in and purchases as an Exotic weapon to be used in flurry (and perhaps do extra damage over normal). I would go so far as to say that exotic weapons used in this way would only have to be purchased once as they already require unusual techniques to wield, giving the monk a special niche with such weapons.
A monk's basic weaponry may often be very simple, but the techniques a monk employs with those same weapons would be quite different that what the average person would use. The monk uses a simple weapon in exotic ways. And that's my point.
Here's a thought:
Move all the base monk weapons back to simple weapons (except shuriken which is a pretty unique in its use). However, these same weapons are treated as Exotic weapons for what the monk can do with them (somewhat similar to the way that the Bastard Sword is a martial weapon that can be used differently when bought up as an exotic). Then allow the monk to use any weapon he is proficient in and purchases as an Exotic weapon to be used in flurry (and perhaps do extra damage over normal). I would go so far as to say that exotic weapons used in this way would only have to be purchased once as they already require unusual techniques to wield, giving the monk a special niche with such weapons.
A monk's basic weaponry may often be very simple, but the techniques a monk employs with those same weapons would be quite different that what the average person would use. The monk uses a simple weapon in exotic ways. And that's my point.
No the idea is just get rid of all the dumb monk weapons altogether which are basically copies of already existing common weapons.
Nunchuck = light flailKama=sickle
Redo the monk list of weapons and give him back spear and polearm
Cut ALOT of useless (exotic) weapons out of print that ink (and kb) don't need to be wasted on.
Keep the shurkien (I guess) as throwing weapon but the rest, just ditch 'em
No the idea is just get rid of all the dumb monk weapons altogether which are basically copies of already existing common weapons.
Nunchuck = light flail
Kama=sickle
Yeah, and siaghkam (sp?) is a 1d6 piercing weapon that looks like a big arrow... just fold it into the shortspear/halfspear (1d6 Simple piercing weapon). And for a bo staff, use quarterstaff stats, and for a tonfa use a club. There's no need to have weapon stats for minor regional variations. For martial weapons, I use scimitar stats for sabres, tulwars, yataghans, etc. -- they're just not different enough to merit different stats, especially at the level of abstraction that D&D uses.
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Yeah, and siaghkam (sp?) is a 1d6 piercing weapon that looks like a big arrow... just fold it into the shortspear/halfspear (1d6 Simple piercing weapon). And for a bo staff, use quarterstaff stats, and for a tonfa use a club. There's no need to have weapon stats for minor regional variations. For martial weapons, I use scimitar stats for sabres, tulwars, yataghans, etc. -- they're just not different enough to merit different stats, especially at the level of abstraction that D&D uses.No the idea is just get rid of all the dumb monk weapons altogether which are basically copies of already existing common weapons.
Nunchuck = light flail
Kama=sickle
I agree. I'm a big fan of bringing Asian and other non-European flavor into my campaigns, but having multiple stats for identical or nearly-identical weapons is thoroughly unnecessary.
Save space for adding in other cool weapons that have no current equivalents.