I'm playing a cleric in a medium-high level D&D 3.5 game as I was the last to create a character and nobody wants to play the cleric. I don't either. If this character dies, I'll create a sorcerer or something and we'll just have to get by with no cleric.
What I don't like about the cleric isn't having to trade in my spells for healing but the spell preparation phase. Having to choose from the entire cleric spell list means having to commit a very large chunk of the PHB to memory in order to really make the most of the cleric and it gets to be a major headache once the cleric hits level 5 or so.
So my suggestion for making the cleric suck less for the player is to restrict them to knowing a smaller number of spells - like sorcerers. Maybe the deity only grants the cleric so many spells or something. The reduction in ability this entails could be compensated for by also making clerics spontaneous casters like sorcerers so they wouldn't have to prepare their spells and could just cast them as needed. So the cleric player would have a chance of actually keeping up with the game instead of spending most of each session leafing frantically through the rulebook.
An added benefit would be increased individualization between clerics.
Hmmm... Correct me if I'm wrong, but...
It sounds as if you are not used to playing a cleric to begin with. So getting the hang of all them cleric spells will be a daunting task. Especially if you are not starting from lvl 1. My suggestion to you, instead of changing the sweet old cleric build-up, must be, invest some time to familiarize yourself with the spells and soon you will know which spells to hang on to and which you only need to dig out occationally...
Changing a cleric to work sorcerer-like, will in my oppinion, not solve a danged thing. You will still need to figure out which spells to hold on to, and which one you might not need....
So sorry if this is not any help but playing a cleric can be fun and rewarding. Really! Would I lie? :-)
Just pick your few favourite spells and let it go at that...
I agree with Gworeth. With new spells coming around in every book WotC releases, you simply cant know them all. Besides, you have to "pray" for your spells beforehand, so technically you only have a set number you may cast, until you decide to pray for a new batch anyway. I usually get nominated for the role of cleric in our sessions, and find myself picking the same spells over & over again (after a while, you can pretty much figure out what spells you'll need based on your DM's style of play).
In high-powered games, your party demands a tremendous amount of patchwork from you. If someone falls over and dies, not only is it your responsibility to get him back up, but it's also your fault. The fact is, your spell list is everyone's business, and therefore offers very little control over your own character. I mean seriously, if someone is low on hit points, are you going to charge and hope you tickle the enemy or just roll a cure X wounds spell?
Player A: "Oh man, I'm at -13. Want to toss me a close wounds Mr. Cleric?"
Player B (Cleric): "Uh... yeah, about that. I only memorized 2 today, and I already used them on Bob."
Player A: "Now I have to re-roll because you can't play your character? Great. What did you memorize instead?"
Player B: "...searing light..."
And the s*$^ hits the fan.
Though, a very serious concern about cleric spells known is the power creep. Every sourcebook released means that you know close to 30-50 more spells, depending on the nature of the book. This arguably gives you greater versatility than the wizard, since all you have to do in order to memorize a spell is know of its existence. If anything is done with cleric spells known, it should do something about this phenomenon.
Look if they wanted to make sure their character didn't die they should have done something to help prevent it, it's not my problem as a player or character. My spells are my business. I don't tell the fighter how to swing his sword, the rogue how to sneak attack or the wizard what to cast, anyone who tries to do so to me is going to get a rude awakening.
Look if they wanted to make sure their character didn't die they should have done something to help prevent it, it's not my problem as a player or character. My spells are my business. I don't tell the fighter how to swing his sword, the rogue how to sneak attack or the wizard what to cast, anyone who tries to do so to me is going to get a rude awakening.
Correct and agreed. The "role of the cleric" is not something that is standardized, or shouldn't be. One of the coolest things about 2e rules, I think, is the concept of priests of a specific mythos. A dedicated and creative DM, using that rule set, can whip up a whole pantheon (or more!) of priest types to go along with the pantheon(s) of gods. In that kind of game setting, not every priest is a healer.
Related to this is actually why I am searching this forum right now and reading this thread. I am building a priest character for a pbp game and I am new to the Pathfinder/3.5 rules set. I'm more familiar with 2e and 1e. At first I thought that, when clerics pick their domains, they are limiting their spell availability to those domains only. I am unable to find a statement in the beta rulebook to confirm this, and I am beginning to think that it is just the impression I got, but not actually the case. I am beginning to think that chosen domains give the bonus spells and powers, but do not limit spell selection. Could someone clear this up for me?
If every cleric has access to every domain and spell selection is wide open, well... this seems to be counter to the cleric/priest class as I see it. In 2e the domains were called spheres, and each god, philosophy, or force granted its priests a certain amount of access (either minor or major) to different spheres. The numbers varied, and there is a small book, The Complete Guide to Priests, that has a fairly balanced procedure for determining the numbers of major and minor spheres that a certain type of priest will have access to, along with "granted powers," which are the same thing as domain powers in 3.5e.
Now, that said, it seems to me that the cleric class could be much improved and given greater flavor if clerics were given "major access"--that is, access to all spells--in two chosen domains. In addition, with the Pathfinder rules, "major access" as I am using it here would also give the incremental domain powers. If the cleric follows a particular god, then they would get "minor access"--in 2e, this was defined as access to spells of 1st-3rd level--to all other domains that the god is affiliated with. Since it seems like the deities of the Pathfinder Chronicles are all affiliated with a total of five domains each, an equivalent system could be worked out for clerics/priests who are polytheists or not tied to a particular god/dess. They would choose two "major access" domains (in which they would gain access to all spells and the incremental powers of the domain) and three "minor access" ones that would only allow them 1st-3rd level spells.
The system could be kept flexible for non-Chronicles campaigns by allowing the GM to change the amounts of major access and minor access domains allowed to clerics. For a fearless GM who wants to add flavor to her campaign and is not worried about bowing to the demands of "balance," certain deities/forces that are more powerful in the game world could be given more domains and/or allow their priests access to more major/minor domains than the average deities in the pantheon.
All of this is just a brainstorm on ways to create more flavor in the cleric class. I think that, incidentally, it has the nice side effect of addressing the concern brought up by someone earlier, namely that the cleric's spell lists are overwhelming. They don't have to be. A clever GM (or a player with some initiative and creativity) could come up with one or more clerics/priests of specific mythoi, as they are called in the old 2e rules.
In high-powered games, your party demands a tremendous amount of patchwork from you. If someone falls over and dies, not only is it your responsibility to get him back up, but it's also your fault. The fact is, your spell list is everyone's business, and therefore offers very little control over your own character. I mean seriously, if someone is low on hit points, are you going to charge and hope you tickle the enemy or just roll a cure X wounds spell?
Player A: "Oh man, I'm at -13. Want to toss me a close wounds Mr. Cleric?"
Player B (Cleric): "Uh... yeah, about that. I only memorized 2 today, and I already used them on Bob."
Player A: "Now I have to re-roll because you can't play your character? Great. What did you memorize instead?"
Player B: "...searing light..."
And the s*$^ hits the fan.
I'm not sure if the ability of clerics to forgo their memorized spell(s) and channel that energy into a cure spell of the same level or lower is new to the Pathfinder rule set or not. From the above post, I am guessing it is. Incidentally, with this rule in effect the complaints above will be considerably lessened, I think--unless a priest burns through all her spells without healing anyone. At any rate, I think that the Spontaneous Casting ability is genius. Well done, I say.
Nope it's a 3.0 thing that has carried since then. Pathfinder added in using the Turning undead as a positive energy conduit to heal those around you, freeing up more spells for other uses. Which is fine by me. Healing is a "Party Action" that one person gets jipped into doing because everyone else didn't bother.
First off, the original post sounds like it would be a better fit in the 3.5 forum, not the PF design forum.
That said, maybe the OP would like to try a Favoured Soul (found in the Complete Divine). Basically, it is to the Cleric what the Sorcerer is to the Wizard. One still has to know which spells to choose as one's "spells known", but once that is out of the way, then daily adventuring become easier without the necessity of reading the entire PHB every morning. If some spells chosen at early levels aren't as useful later, then they can be swapped out gradually at even-numbered levels.
The class does require that the character has both good Charisma and good Wisdom.
One drawback of the Favoured Soul is that the class has no Turn Undead class feature. I've seen some house rules variations which basically ditched several (or all) of the other special class features in return for gaining the ability to turn undead. There are other tweaks that could also be applied.
I hope that this helps!
Correct and agreed. The "role of the cleric" is not something that is standardized, or shouldn't be. One of the coolest things about 2e rules, I think, is the concept of priests of a specific mythos. A dedicated and creative DM, using that rule set, can whip up a whole pantheon (or more!) of priest types to go along with the pantheon(s) of gods. In that kind of game setting, not every priest is a healer.
Related to this is actually why I am searching this forum right now and reading this thread. I am building a priest character for a pbp game and I am new to the Pathfinder/3.5 rules set. I'm more familiar with 2e and 1e. At first I thought that, when clerics pick their domains, they are limiting their spell availability to those domains only. I am unable to find a statement in the beta rulebook to confirm this, and I am beginning to think that it is just the impression I got, but not actually the case. I am beginning to think that chosen domains give the bonus spells and powers, but do not limit spell selection. Could someone clear this up for me?
If every cleric has access to every domain and spell selection is wide open, well... this seems to be counter to the cleric/priest class as I see it. In 2e the domains were called spheres, and each god, philosophy, or force granted its priests a certain amount of access (either minor or major) to different spheres. The numbers varied, and there is a small book, The Complete Guide to Priests, that has a fairly balanced procedure for determining the numbers of major and minor spheres that a certain type of priest will have access to, along with "granted...
(Darn boards! Not only do they not allow one to quote the entirety of a long post, but they also eat posts! Let's see if I can re-construct my reply ...)
Regarding 3.5 Clerics: they have access to the general Cleric spell list plus the spells from their chosen domains. Usually one has access to two domains, but certain prestige classes, alternative class features, etc. can increase/decrease that number.
It is important to note that the domain spells can only be placed into the domain spell slots, not the regular spell slots. That means that the L 3 Cleric with the Magic domain can only cast Identify (L 2 domain spell) once per day - unless he is high enough in level to be able to put it into his L 3 or higher domain spell slot.
Certain prestige classes allow one to cast domain spells as regular Cleric spells (essentially a "copy and paste" from the domain list to the Cleric list).
An aside on domains: they often include spells which are from other class spell lists (Wizard, Druid, Bard, Paladin, etc.), and often have spells at different levels than on a regular spell list. Some domain spells are unique to a particular domain or two, and so cannot be cast unless one has that domain. For example, Holy Smite is Good 4 and Glory 4.
On the subject of specialization: the Cleric's choice of domains is the main form of specialization. If you want more, then I would suggest looking at the deity-specific prestige classes for your setting. Unfortunately, since Golarion is still a young setting (in terms of publication) there are not many prestige classes available. If you're using Golarion, then I would suggest asking the DM if there are any prestige classes from other souces which could be adapted for your world. (I'm a great believer in the sensible use of prestige classes.)
(Darn boards! Not only do they not allow one to quote the entirety of a long post, but they also eat posts! Let's see if I can re-construct my reply ...)
Regarding 3.5 Clerics: they have access to the general Cleric spell list plus the spells from their chosen domains. Usually one has access to two domains, but certain prestige classes, alternative class...
Haha, now your post got eaten, too! ArrrGGGHH!!
But thanks Bellona for clearing things up for me a little bit. I may need to take a closer look at the spell lists in the rulebook, but from what I recall I don't remember seeing the cleric spells broken down by domain. By "general," do you mean the entire cleric spell list? I guess I'm confused because I'm not sure if you a referring to a pseudo-domain called "general," or just all of the cleric spells.
Thanks for the info!
(Darn boards! Not only do they not allow one to quote the entirety of a long post, but they also eat posts! Let's see if I can re-construct my reply ...)
Regarding 3.5 Clerics: they have access to the general Cleric spell list plus the spells from their chosen domains. Usually one has access to two domains, but certain prestige classes, alternative class...
Haha, now your post got eaten, too! ArrrGGGHH!!
But thanks Bellona for clearing things up for me a little bit. I may need to take a closer look at the spell lists in the rulebook, but from what I recall I don't remember seeing the cleric spells broken down by domain. By "general," do you mean the entire cleric spell list? I guess I'm confused because I'm not sure if you a referring to a pseudo-domain called "general," or just all of the cleric spells.
Thanks for the info!
Wait, wait. Now I think I get it. D'oh. *slaps forehead* Domain lists are in Chapter 11; I knew that! And the spells you are referring to are the bonus spells gained at the incremental levels. These are above and beyond bonus spells earned for wisdom. So a cleric with 16 wis at 1st level gets to choose 2 (1+1) 1st level spells of any type from the cleric lists, correct?
Yes. The bonus spells from domain are above and beyond your normal casting.
For the Original Poster, or anyone else looking for a spontaneous casting cleric with a spells known list, the Unearthed Arcana has a simple version that is part of the SRD, available Here.
To 2E Floppy-Eared Golem: You're right, in Pathfinder a 1st level cleric gets 1+1 spells off the entire cleric spell list. At 2nd level they get 2+1, as well as bonus spells from both their domains (so 2+1+2).
There is far fewer exclusive spells/spheres in 3.0/3.5/PF than in 2E - most clerics can cast most of the spells. I find this a very good thing personally (I really detest spheres), but I do understand where your affection for the personalization comes from. As someone said, picking those two domains and getting the bonuses from that is the primary means of individualizing your Cleric.
It tends to work pretty well (particularly in PF), adding extras instead of blocking off whole sections of spells.