Ok to me clerics are just that. They're the warriors of the church the crusaders of their faith. 3e never come out and class them that it hints at it but never spells it out.
Now in 2e it was spelled out loud and clear what they were. They are based off the knight templars, the Hospitalers and the Teutonic knights.
Lets look at them as a class. Now most church men be commoners or experts more then anything.
HD=d8 a good HD that puts them above both commoners and experts
Two good saves are not shabby at all
BAB is 2nd best in the game lets em be compatant in the battle field
Armor= they are trained in the use of all armors puts them on pare with the melee classes
Weapons simple+ gods weapon ...still some good combat weapons here
Skill points do not match a worldly bookish type but more the fighter and the paladins
spells= this is another area the cleric shines they have many uses to buff themselves and others as well as healing
so here is what i would ask how are they not holy warriors when thats the role they were built for?
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different clerics might take different roles
but yes in itself the Cleric by construct and role is the holy warrior who has been pushed toward the secundary role of helbot
some would argue "isn't the paladin The Holy Warrior?" yes and no
they cover the part of Holy Warrior... but only for LG, LN and NG... and in my campaign only LG Religions... but the truth is that the Paladin is a Symbol. He or She are Champions of Light, Good and Everything that is right.
A Cleric's connection to his/her good is intimate and eprsonal, but in the case of the Paladin he usually is born for the role...
The cleric and the paladin role's don't interfere with each other, not even the LG Cleric and the Paladin... even if sometimes that Cleric might like a "paladin"
As its mentioned by seeker, it would be great to see this shown in the flavor of the game, itstrue its not the only role then can keep in the hierarchy of specific religions and it commonly depends on said religion and deity ethos, but in the end when said religion need someone to take arms and defend it... they don't look for other (yeah yeah i know adventures make them look for adventurers, that is another issue) but to its clerics for protection.
Just my opinion here:
The cleric IS the Holy Warrior of a church. There are priests, like, experts or commoners, sometimes even much better than a real cleric to speak with the faithful, make marriages, rites (think like "the rite of the sun" or "the spring godess festival" or just "the happy bath at the river for the water god" or anything like that), or even Adepts, maybe (like in Eberron). He can fight, he can heal, he can crusade against the infidels and all such things that makes him a Warrior Priest IMO. They can be simple priests too, but they CAN be much more. In the AD&D they were based on the catholical warrior priests, so the cure and all. In 3e they are meant to be the best healers, but they are meant to be able to do other things. That's why domains and all. After all a cleric of the Fire of d00m god SHOULD be able to throw fiery d00m at the foes of the god (like, say, the clerics of the Healing Waters goddess...). I think that the classe would need some little different fluff abilities and some other things, but it's good as it is now: A holy warrior priest.
Now, the paladin isn't a holy warrior priest. He is the White Knight, Holy Knight and all. A Paladin and a cleric of the Paladin God are very much the same, but a cleric of the Smart Rogue God and a paladin are som much different.
The Paladin is the champion of an ideal, the Hero ideal (Justice, goodness, courage and all are some good adjectives, but I think that "Hero" is kinda cool). I don't think they step on each other's toes in this way...
The SRD cloistered cleric makes an ideal non-warrior priest.
Would there ever be a place for a non-warrior priest PC class?
Diego mentioned Adepts, I'd love to see a divine magic NPC class called Acolyte created to fill the simple priest role. That way Adepts could be all-arcane, hedge wizards and apprentices, etc.
The Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana would fit the bill for a non-warrior priest.
Poor BAB, fewer weapons and armor, more class skills and more skill points, a bardic knowledge-like ability, a bonus domain: Knowledge, a few more spells on the spell list having to do with scholarly effects.
I often use a wizard. Change his list a bit, turn[channel] In place of a familiar and divan in place of arcane spells. and there ya go
The Cloistered Cleric variant from Unearthed Arcana would fit the bill for a non-warrior priest.
Dude, I totally ninja'd you.
Gives kirth Ninja star
HD=d8 a good HD that puts them above both commoners and experts
It's not hard to be above commoners, but above experts, they're not. Not in Beta.
BAB is 2nd best in the game lets em be compatant in the battle field
It's the 2nd worst in the game!
Skill points do not match a worldly bookish type but more the fighter and the paladins
What are you talking about? Both wizards and sorcerers get the same amount. Barbarians (rabid battleragers) get more. And let's not even start about rangers.
They are and they aren't. They certainly can be. Maybe 2nd edition did this best with the Priest class.
I would do a Templar or Crusader base class that allows a paladin-ish type warrior for any faith
Just my opinion
It's not hard to be above commoners, but above experts, they're not. Not in Beta.
was a d4 now a d6. D8 is still better
It's the 2nd worst in the game!
and still 2nd best
I cant augur on skill points 2 is never enough and is silly
Yep still holy warriors
Yep still holy warriors
but when it comes to warriors they are below paladins, and fighters, barbarians, and rangers. they may be better that the commoner but so what. In relation to other heroes, they are pretty good fighters but not on level to the above classes
I would like to see a base class of a holy warrior for any faith on that level
they are below if ya dont count them being full casters. one of the common crys is they are too good at fighting
they are the only full caster with a good bab and was not a d4...d6 now
they can buff themselves into combat monsters.They can with spells out last and out damage the other melee classes
they are very much warriors
they are below if ya dont count them being full casters. one of the common crys is they are too good at fighting
they are the only full caster with a good bab and was not a d4...d6 now
they can buff themselves into combat monsters.They can with spells out last and out damage the other melee classes
they are very much warriors
To me, its not the same in a role play kind of way. I must admit I am old 1st edition guy, when clerics were not quite the combatants they are in 3.5e. And I agree they can be warriors if you want. But they are still limited in combat to a degree.
limited yes as they are not pure combat. They are ment to fill that role however. If not they would not be able to ware amour and have a worse BAB , prob worse HD as well
I came in at 2e the PHB stated that were holy warriors. It gave examples
as well.
EDIT: I just looked 1e PHB states they are based off knightly holy orders of the middle ages as well.
EDIT: I just looked 1e PHB states they are based off knightly holy orders of the middle ages as well.
and yet were not permitted to use swords or axes no matter the god they worshipped. So while there is some influence, its not a pure one
It's not hard to be above commoners, but above experts, they're not. Not in Beta.
was a d4 now a d6. D8 is still better
Expert has d8 now, had d6.
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Since the game does not really go into any kind of detail about the organization of churches, one could very easily assume that all clergy of a religion are in fact clerics and at best some Adepts.
What I have done for my religions is further define roles and create a new class.
The common low-level priest is the NPC class Adept. This is suitable for the average low-level neighborhood clergy. Higher ranking clergy includes a Priest Class (new one I made) which is in essence a Sorcerer that uses Divine magic instead of Arcane and uses the Cleric spell list. These are suitable for more educated and specialist clergy. Then there are the warrior Clerics. The military elite of the church have Paladins.
Very few churches have Paladins, in my games. The only ones that do are militaristic in nature to begin with. Interestingly these usually are not LG.
The actual hierarchy can be all mixed up. That is, one can be an Adept and be a Cardinal, while a Cleric can still have the rank of a neighborhood Priest. Ascension within the organization is not based upon ones class, but ones abilities and especially charisma. The reason for it being based upon charisma is that I figure charisma is what would be used to influence those around you to move up the ladder. The higher the charisma modifier the high the rank in the church.
I would LOVE to see a second divine caster with a relationship similar to the sorcerer:wizard relationship. I would have the Acolyte, or Priest cast far more spells, use no armor, and have a different effect than Turn Undead.
I would LOVE to see a second divine caster with a relationship similar to the sorcerer:wizard relationship.
I like the concept of the Favored Soul myself, though I would tweak it and call it the Mystic
Since the game does not really go into any kind of detail about the organization of churches, one could very easily assume that all clergy of a religion are in fact clerics and at best some Adepts.
The game probably hasn't - I didn't check the DMG, but I'll just assume that it doesn't have that much about church organisation - but Pathfinder has. Gods and Magic includes ifnormation on what kinds of people are part of the 20 major churches of Golarion.
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Since the game does not really go into any kind of detail about the organization of churches, one could very easily assume that all clergy of a religion are in fact clerics and at best some Adepts.The game probably hasn't - I didn't check the DMG, but I'll just assume that it doesn't have that much about church organisation - but Pathfinder has. Gods and Magic includes ifnormation on what kinds of people are part of the 20 major churches of Golarion.
I was hoping Gods & Magic would have that kind of info. Unfortunately until I can get a job that actually allows me to meet my bills RPG stuff is banned from the budget. I actually had to borrow money from the in-laws to make the mortgage payment! That sucks royally.
When the job turns around and I start making some money Gods & Magic and resuming my subscription is 1st on the list :)
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I was hoping Gods & Magic would have that kind of info. Unfortunately until I can get a job that actually allows me to meet my bills RPG stuff is banned from the budget. I actually had to borrow money from the in-laws to make the mortgage payment! That sucks royally.
When the job turns around and I start making some money Gods & Magic and resuming my subscription is 1st on the list :)
gah!
sorry to hear that dude, good luck and as the japanese says "Gambate"anyways any doubts about clerics and their organizations ask, we peomise just igve you enough detail so you wantit more and we arenot pushed off the road my paizo :P
all churches have clerics, but depending on the type of church other have other as well as part of the priesthood, for example Iomedae (my favorite goddess as you all can notice) has Clerics & Paladins... but they mostly adventure and are roganiced as an army... the actual work on the church would be adepts and expert (said in other words) dedicated to the goddess.
others have bards, rangers, druids, wizards, necromancer, even performers or crafters... the dwarves for example needto craft to pray... things like that.
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Since the game does not really go into any kind of detail about the organization of churches, one could very easily assume that all clergy of a religion are in fact clerics and at best some Adepts.
What I have done for my religions is further define roles and create a new class.
The common low-level priest is the NPC class Adept. This is suitable for the average low-level neighborhood clergy. Higher ranking clergy includes a Priest Class (new one I made) which is in essence a Sorcerer that uses Divine magic instead of Arcane and uses the Cleric spell list. These are suitable for more educated and specialist clergy. Then there are the warrior Clerics. The military elite of the church have Paladins.
Very few churches have Paladins, in my games. The only ones that do are militaristic in nature to begin with. Interestingly these usually are not LG.
The actual hierarchy can be all mixed up. That is, one can be an Adept and be a Cardinal, while a Cleric can still have the rank of a neighborhood Priest. Ascension within the organization is not based upon ones class, but ones abilities and especially charisma. The reason for it being based upon charisma is that I figure charisma is what would be used to influence those around you to move up the ladder. The higher the charisma modifier the high the rank in the church.
I would LOVE to see a second divine caster with a relationship similar to the sorcerer:wizard relationship. I would have the Acolyte, or Priest cast far more spells, use no armor, and have a different effect than Turn Undead.
interesting concepts all of them
most of the ideasare not only good but really workablewould have to think about using them :D
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but when it comes to warriors (Clerics) are below paladins, and fighters, barbarians, and rangers. they may be better that the commoner but so what. In relation to other heroes, they are pretty good fighters but not on level to the above classesI would like to see a base class of a holy warrior for any faith on that level
Remove paladin (it has always smelled like a prestige class to me, as soon as I'd heard about PrCs). Replace with a more generic 'holy warrior'. Here are a couple of suggestions as first cuts.
As a fighter, but replace at least some of the combat feats and weapon and armor training with divine feats and abilities. Could require all to be changed, or allow a mix (I did this in 3.x and it worked fine; I don't like this one so much any more).
As a paladin, but change spellcasting to that of a cleric of half the level and let him pick one or two domains (to taste; I prefer two), for both the domain spell slots and domain powers. The low-level paladin abilities (divine grace, etc.) you can probably keep, you'd probably want to replace lay on hands, remove disease, etc. with something more appropriate to the domains/gods/etc. chosen.
Either way, raid Book of the Righteous and Unholy Warrior's Handbook (both from Green Ronin; updated for 3.5 in Holy Warrior's Handbook and Book of Fiends respectively) for domain power ideas.
if the Paladin goes (that we all know he is goign nowhere)then there is no need to add another "holy warrior" generic class... as fas asholy warrior the cleric can do, as someone has mentioned befor (seeker ithink that was you) the paladin is much more than just a holy warrior, that is whyits so hard to be one
if its a PrC then withcleric and fighter it can bedone, no need for any other class.