alright...I was browsing Wizards website looking at the product schedule for 2009 when I noticed a glaring little gem. Looks like the original five Dark Sun novels are being re-released next year. Now I'm certainly not up on the insider knowledge, and I apologize if this information has already been released, but doesn't the presence of those old Dark Sun novels on the schedule indicate that Dark Sun is probably gonna be the campaign of choice come 2010? No sense to drag out those old novels unless they're planning to 4eify Dark Sun, eh? Again.... I'm not really up on the rpg news scene but maybe someone could verify this for me...
Don't make me cry, wasn't the nuking of the realms enough...sigh athas can't take much nuking anyhow....points to ravenloft and cry's as well
Don't make me cry, wasn't the nuking of the realms enough...sigh athas can't take much nuking anyhow....points to ravenloft and cry's as well
Yeah, because updating your sacred cow is such a sin. Just enjoy the new versions of the campaign settings. It's not like they're going to be un-fun. They might offend that little part of you that wants to be offended by someone altering what you hold dear no matter the alteration, but you should be trying to quell that part of you anyway.
Updating is fine Scott. Rewriting, nuking, reanimating its corps to then poke and laugh at is not fine. Update a setting don't reworked it into something new and just use names, thats lazy and cheap. If you get lucky they'll have guys that have no ideal what the setting is just like FR team was. Great huh
I am not b#*%%ing on the rules system, with a bit of work 4e's system could be usable. I have no faith wotc can remake any setting with out doing bad things to it.
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Updating is fine Scott. Rewriting, nuking, reanimating its corps to then poke and laugh at is not fine. Update a setting don't reworked it into something new and just use names, thats lazy and cheap. If you get lucky they'll have guys that have no ideal what the setting is just like FR team was. Great huh
I am not b@#~#ing on the rules system, with a bit of work 4e's system could be usable. I have no faith wotc can remake any setting with out doing bad things to it.
Considering that they just fired Jonathon Tweet, Dave Noonan and a bunch of others, and coupled with a rather colorful last 2 years, I would consider your lack of faith as justified. I fully believe that Darksun getting overhauled by WOTC is going to lead to a horribly butchered setting that will be strip-mined for marketable tendencies then tossed aside with no regard for any of the settings' actual fans.
url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/layoffsAt WotC]just fired Jonathon Tweet, Dave Noonan and a bunch of others[/url], and coupled with a rather colorful last 2 years, I would consider your lack of faith as justified. I fully believe that Darksun getting overhauled by WOTC is going to lead to a horribly butchered setting that will be strip-mined for marketable tendencies then tossed aside with no regard for any of the settings' actual fans.
It's one of the reason I decided to do my own setting based on the Nentir Valley but with a whole history of my own design. I'll use what items I can from WOTC but I'm not expecting too much from them in decent content.
[Braveheart voice] They can take our sacred cows, but they can never take ... OUR FREEDOM! [/Braveheart voice]
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From an insider* I heard that Athas 4th edition is gonna be a water world. A just created water world, full of vibrant good aligned races that all strife to hold the peace.
They did away with pyramids.
Everytime someone uses magic a Flumph is created somewhere in the world.
*an unrealiable source I think.
Updating is fine Scott. Rewriting, nuking, reanimating its corps to then poke and laugh at is not fine. Update a setting don't reworked it into something new and just use names, thats lazy and cheap. If you get lucky they'll have guys that have no ideal what the setting is just like FR team was. Great huh
If you think that's what happened to Forgotten Realms, it isn't worth the time necessary to convince you otherwise. None of the things you've said are true outside a haywire, knee-jerk subjective reaction that forsakes fact for the ability to take offense.
It's really unfortunate that you've chosen to view the situation this way.
They are all true, Spellpaluge works against the very rules of the realms. The whole god soap oprea was unlikely to downright childlike in many places. in more then one podcast the design teams said they didn't know what this ment or that ment or they never understood or liked this or that so they made up stuff ignored what they didnt like.
So they nuked it from space.
Sorry you dont like the fact it's the realms in name only. If you don't think that I'm sorry you never got to play in the realms and love the realms like i have its unfortunate that you don't understand.
Enjoy your new setting.
I'll be over here crying as they mangle yet another setting that does not need it, To make it as generic and unimaginative as they can, to watch them take anything cool out and to saddle it with things that do not fit.
Now I'll let everyone else enjoy the thread and sorry for ranting if I offended anyone else sorry
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They are all true, Spellpaluge works against the very rules of the realms. The whole god soap oprea was unlikely to downright childlike in many places. in more then one podcast the design teams said they didn't know what this ment or that ment or they never understood or liked this or that so they made up stuff ignored what they didnt like.
So they nuked it from space.
Sorry you dont like the fact it's the realms in name only. If you don't think that I'm sorry you never got to play in the realms and love the realms like i have its unfortunate that you don't understand.
Enjoy your new setting.
I'll be over here crying as they mangle yet another setting that does not need it, To make it as generic and unimaginative as they can, to watch them take anything cool out and to saddle it with things that do not fit.
Now I'll let everyone else enjoy the thread and sorry for ranting if I offended anyone else sorry
Dude, don't let him get to you. Scott's MO seems to be fingers in his ears, eyes tightly closed and a refrain of "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever someone says that WOTC may have made any error. Best to just ignore him and stick to conversing with people who can see the forest despite all those pesky trees.
Yeah I know, but I have a hate for Mad max beyond waterdeep and it got the best of me there. I was gonna delete it but ya quoted me already.
He just came off as a condescending 4e crusader,with frenzy in his eyes that I dare say WOTC messed up. I mean how dare I be upset and not worship what must be a better realms right
Oh well. I'll leave the 4e section for a bit, didnt come here to flames the rules or anything.
Glad you like it ,thats what I always call it, I kid you not 7 of 9 realms players I know upon just seeing the map said " What they do nuke it from space".
Athas was my first homeworld and a favorite of mine... and I'm sorry but I'd raher keep that sweet old 2ed image and don't go 4e... I hope it turns out good thou
I'm not even going to argue that the new Realms are perfect, because that is a matter of opinion - you are more than entitled to feel it doesn't compare to the previous setting! And I have no problems if you want to voice the opinion that you wish they would have done it better, or just reproduced it as something identical to the old version, or put it out as a product you would use. But to say they shouldn't produce this material at all, and that the gamers who do want the material should be deprived of it for no reason at all, other than spite... well, that just feels like a very petty, very small opinion to hold. And jumping on anyone...
Hell man I dont mind updating a setting, they should update. But more 1e-2e-3e type of update. Not rewrite the whole setting and reuse name.
4E realms could have been nice, it could have been the realms, they did not need to change it like they did. Some updates sure not nuking from obit. The 4e team said more then once they didnt care for the realms, they didnt get it. They didn't know what stuff meant...they should have just asked. I mean there was a nation of 20-30% tiflings they dropped dragon born ontop of.
To folks who loved the realms and understood realms lore it was a half assed mess man, that simple.
As for ravenloft ...well use ravenloft do not strip mine it for ideals and part it out like a stolen car.
Athas could rock with 4e rules hell i could make it rock hard with gurps rules. But once you kill the feel and style and uniqueness of a setting whats the point.
Dude, don't let him get to you. Scott's MO seems to be fingers in his ears, eyes tightly closed and a refrain of "LA, LA, LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" whenever someone says that WOTC may have made any error. Best to just ignore him and stick to conversing with people who can see the forest despite all those pesky trees.
I'm sorry you feel that way. I feel WotC has made a number of errors, if it'll appease you any. Previous editions have been plagued by unaddressed problems that WotC was responsible for. Errata took forever. Setting a release date for the Digital Initiative that couldn't be met was a mistake.
But beyond that, they've done a lot of fantastic things. In addition to revitalizing the D&D hobby and keeping it afloat, which they deserve your thanks for, they've developed a great new edition. I know a lot of people in here don't like 4th Edition. That's expected; you're on a website that is dedicated to the old edition. I know a lot of people here, because of that, have also enjoyed extending their distaste for WotC further than 4th Edition. Again, that's expected.
Don't paint me as a diehard WotC fanboy. Not only does it require a lot of assumption on your part (which has ended up being wrong, amusingly), but it speaks to the fact that you are under the mentality that anyone who disagrees with you can't see the forest for the trees - the very same thing you accuse me of.
Seeker, for what it's worth, I've played in the Realms a great deal. Tabletop, old NWN, new NWN, gold box games, etc. I loved the old Realms. It was great. Guess what? It's still there! If you can't let go of your particular sacred cow, don't. Use the old one. I like the new Realms as well as the old. Change doesn't bother me, and neither do options. I don't spend my time ranting against people doing what they want with their own creations.
That's nice that you think the Spellplague sucks and goes against the "rules of the realms". The people who design the Realms decided otherwise. It's wonderful that you think the drama within the pantheon is childish and unlikely, but the people who design the Realms disagree. You're free to call it butchery. But I'm free to disagree with you, and call your observations bunk. But I'm not the one sitting on a board just so I can tell other people how much the topic of the board sucks.
Once again, that distinct group of people who for whatever reason has decided they don't like 4th Edition is finding it difficult to just enjoy their own game.
Hell man I dont mind updating a setting, they should update. But more 1e-2e-3e type of update. Not rewrite the whole setting and reuse name.
They didn't just rewrite the whole setting and reuse the name. Some of the same characters are there. Many of the same civilizations are there, if advanced by a century. The same history is there, with an extra hundred years added for you to play with. Poor you.
4E realms could have been nice, it could have been the realms, they did not need to change it like they did.
They didn't need to do anything, but it was the way they wanted to go with their creative design.
Some updates sure not nuking from obit.
"Nuking it from orbit" certainly qualifies as an update. You just don't like the impact that had.
The 4e team said more then once they didnt care for the realms, they didnt get it.
You got a quotation for this?
To folks who loved the realms and understood realms lore it was a half assed mess man, that simple.
Yeah, because if you don't like the direction the developers went with it, you must not be a True Forgotten Realms Fan (tm). Right.
As for ravenloft ...well use ravenloft do not strip mine it for ideals and part it out like a stolen car.
I thought this was a great idea. Ravenloft always worked best as a set of adventures, not a convoluted campaign setting that was made of stolen car parts from other settings to begin with. Ironic that the very criticism you have of Ravenloft is what it was created from in the first place.
Athas could rock with 4e rules hell i could make it rock hard with gurps rules. But once you kill the feel and style and uniqueness of a setting whats the point.
Yes, let's be absolutely sure that the next campaign setting will be butchered based on a controversial personal opinion of a separate campaign setting. Why do you feel the need to make these kinds of assumptions about things that haven't even happened yet? They don't serve any purpose, other than to allow you an avenue to vent, and if 4th Edition Athas does turn out to be excellent, you're going to look like you were making completely unfounded assumptions about it just to cast aspersions on the design team. So why do you do it?
Here is my question for Seeker, and anyone else who would rather that, instead of them putting out the 4E Forgotten Realms, or Ravenloft, or Dark Sun, or whatever, that they simply didn't touch them at all:
Why?
Because one of the reasons you play in a published setting like the Realms is to have a base for your experiences (even if you 'make the Realms your own'). I could have players join my game that knew something of the Realms without having to explain the gist of the setting. Even if they hadn't heard of the setting, there was tons of information out there for them to digest (note that I consider that to be a GOOD thing).
The FR had drawn on years of work, I was able to use 2nd edition supplements in my 3.x games with very few updates. That won't be possible in the new Realms, the setting is vastly different.
If they had to change so much, I'll ask your question right back at you:
Why?
Why tear apart an established setting only to rework it for your new system? Why not come up with a new world with it's own base of experiences? Or, better yet, why not alter the system to fit the established Realms?
And to top it off, they had to add insult to injury by telling Realms fans to 'like it or lump it' (I heard they even went to far as to tell some FR fans to "GO AWAY" at Gen Con), the changes were the changes and there was nothing that could be done about it. Then they went and (here's a shocker) ACTUALLY TOOK FEEDBACK FROM EBBERON FANS AND USED IT TO REWORK THEIR PLANS FOR THAT SETTING...
So there's a couple of reasons why Realms fans are disgusted at the changes.
And, personally, I think WotC really shot themselves in the foot. If they had just tweaked the Realms a little and massaged the rules to fit, I think they could have enticed more FR fans to try it out. Hijacking it for name recognition only for their new "living" campaign and hammering it into the new system only served to make new enemies of 4.0 and steel the resolve of holdouts.
And I'm not even a hard core Realms fan...
Dragon snack thanks man ya get it to at lest 6 out of 10 realms fans it no longer is the realms, closer to 9 out of 10 for hard core fans. I am done arguing with Scott, it does no good he'll preach the gospel of WOTC and I'll say they nuked the Realms. All I will say is go back and listen to the podcasts, that aimed FR at non FR fans, and yes they really didn't not know what the planets name was or just why it was called FR, not something an update team should not know. They didnt update they rewrote whole sections of the setting to make that inapt story work.
Scott B. for the win...
Hardly it's just not worth my time poking holes in his answers really.
Why tear apart an established setting only to rework it for your new system? Why not come up with a new world with it's own base of experiences? Or, better yet, why not alter the system to fit the established Realms?
And to top it off, they had to add insult to injury by telling Realms fans to 'like it or lump it' (I heard they even went to far as to tell some FR fans to "GO AWAY" at Gen Con), the changes were the changes and there was nothing that could be done about it. Then they went and (here's a shocker) ACTUALLY TOOK FEEDBACK FROM EBBERON FANS AND USED IT TO REWORK THEIR PLANS FOR THAT SETTING...
So there's a couple of reasons why Realms fans are disgusted at the changes.
And, personally, I think WotC really shot themselves in the foot. If they had just tweaked the Realms a little and massaged the rules to fit, I think they could have enticed more FR fans to try it out. Hijacking it for name recognition only for their new "living" campaign and hammering it into the new system only served to make new enemies of 4.0 and steel the resolve of holdouts....
It was a big mistake to try to change so drastically a long established setting. They would have done better to bring out a setting only a few years advanced of the 3rd edition realms then brought out a new setting update with the changes 'Godwar' etc in it.
But they havn't so there you go. The best thing to do is not use the new FR setting and if you are going to run a realms campaign use material from 3.5 Realms and even 2nd edition. After all its the history, maps and NPC personalities that your after.
Dragon snack thanks man ya get it to at lest 6 out of 10 realms fans it no longer is the realms, closer to 9 out of 10 for hard core fans. I am done arguing with Scott, it does no good he'll preach the gospel of WOTC and I'll say they nuked the Realms. All I will say is go back and listen to the podcasts, that aimed FR at non FR fans, and yes they really didn't not know what the planets name was or just why it was called FR, not something an update team should not know. They didnt update they rewrote whole sections of the setting to make that inapt story work.
And the cap on any decent internet argument: contrived statistics based on personal anecdote and wishful thinking.
This may surprise you, seekerofshadowlight, but a lot of people like the new Realms, 4th Edition and Wizards of the Coast. You are not a metric for the tabletop community, and your experiences do not necessarily generalize to the gaming population.
If 4th Edition and the Realms crumble and fail, you can feel free to tell me you were right.
well scott for every one old realms player that likes the new realms you can find i'll bet i can find three times as many old realms players that hate it.
But ya it's gonna sale it's garbage to me, but look at all the craptastic splat books that sold.
But it's IS NOT the realms, any more then greyhawk with elmister name and shadowdale dropped in it is the realms.
Say wat ya want, Lets talk of the mangling of yet another setting not one they done maimed shall we.
well scott for every one old realms player that likes the new realms you can find i'll bet i can find three times as many old realms players that hate it.
I don't think you can, nor would it prove anything if you did.
But it's IS NOT the realms, any more then greyhawk with elmister name and shadowdale dropped in it is the realms.
This argument holds as much weight as the "4th Edition isn't real D&D!" cries do: none.
Neither are you
You are not a metric for the tabletop community,
Of course I'm not.
well scott for every one old realms player that likes the new realms you can find i'll bet i can find three times as many old realms players that hate it.I don't think you can, nor would it prove anything if you did.
But it's IS NOT the realms, any more then greyhawk with elmister name and shadowdale dropped in it is the realms.This argument holds as much weight as the "4th Edition isn't real D&D!" cries do: none.
heh my arguments was
1. I don't think you can2.This argument holds as much weight as the "4th Edition realms is the real realms !" cries do: none.
well scott for every one old realms player that likes the new realms you can find i'll bet i can find three times as many old realms players that hate it.I don't think you can, nor would it prove anything if you did.
But it's IS NOT the realms, any more then greyhawk with elmister name and shadowdale dropped in it is the realms.This argument holds as much weight as the "4th Edition isn't real D&D!" cries do: none.heh my arguments was
1. I don't think you can2.This argument holds as much weight as the "4th Edition realms is the real realms !" cries do: none.
This argument is relative to your viewpoint. If you like it, you can find examples to fit the argument.
Ultimatley if you like the new Realms then go with it, If not then don't! Simple reasoning really.
I don't like the new Realm so I am using a new setting for 4E.
I like 1E Realms, I like early 2E realms, I hate late 2E and 3E Ralms, I like 4E Realms.
Can't we all just get along?
*takes out guitar round campfire*
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Ravenloft always worked best as a set of adventures, not a convoluted campaign setting that was made of stolen car parts from other settings to begin with. Ironic that the very criticism you have of Ravenloft is what it was created from in the first place.
I'm curious. What "stolen car parts from other settings" were used to make Ravenloft? The two original adventures that started the setting were stand alones. Sure there was some big stuff borrowed from other campaign worlds, such as Lord Soth, Vecna, & Kas (the later two of which were added much later). Most of the domains, however, were original to the setting, albeit based off of real-world myths and stories.
Mad max beyond waterdeepThat's awesome.
Not when Kevin Costner tried to make it into a movie. :)
Geez, I thought this was going to be a thread about 4e Dark Sun...
Anyway, here's hoping we'll see 4e Psionics rules when Dark Sun comes out! Remember when Dark Sun came out in 2nd edition? It was billed as a land so harsh that PCs had to start at 3rd level - a place where everyone had psionic powers. I loved it. I don't think they'll have to change much to make it a 4e setting, either. The desert and the city states are already a 'points of light' style setting. I think we'll need to see some new cleric powers to reflect the Templars and the elemenatal clerics, and maybe some new stuff for the nonmetal weapons and armor. All of that is fairly easy to write. The psionics are probably the most difficult thing to add in.
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If they had to change so much, I'll ask your question right back at you:
Why?
Why tear apart an established setting only to rework it for your new system? Why not come up with a new world with it's own base of experiences? Or, better yet, why not alter the system to fit the established Realms?
The simple answer to this question: because Forgotten Realms is a popular Brand Name!
Many, many gamers know FR. And even more non-gamers know the FR books. Many of those readers might not know that a Bulette is a fictional monster and not a german meatball, but they know the names of Druzzls Scimitars.So they have the choice to
1) build a new, unknown CS from scratch and invest a lot of money in advertising and hope that this will be a success
or
2) take a well know brand name, change it so that it fits the mechanics of the new game.
Another guess to think about: all old campaign books are obsolete with the new setting. I do not mean mechanics, you could use 2nd ed. books with 3rd edition mechanics. I mean that most of the Fluff is obsolete. So WoC could produce the same stuff again if they wanted to.
In the end it is not to destroy the Realms but to milk the cow for what it is worth before Ebberron takes over as the best known CS.
Geez, I thought this was going to be a thread about 4e Dark Sun...
Anyway, here's hoping we'll see 4e Psionics rules when Dark Sun comes out! Remember when Dark Sun came out in 2nd edition? It was billed as a land so harsh that PCs had to start at 3rd level - a place where everyone had psionic powers. I loved it. I don't think they'll have to change much to make it a 4e setting, either. The desert and the city states are already a 'points of light' style setting. I think we'll need to see some new cleric powers to reflect the Templars and the elemenatal clerics, and maybe some new stuff for the nonmetal weapons and armor. All of that is fairly easy to write. The psionics are probably the most difficult thing to add in.
Isn't it too early for novels to support a 2010 setting?
I was hoping that some of these future setting would just be 'plagarized and updated with 4e stat blocks.' Seeing as WotC is down-sizing, that might be a necessity if they want to publish any 'new' 4e settings. It would make sense to introduce Psionics with Dark Sun. But I only read the Dark Sun books, I never played the setting.
Actually I am lucky in that regard. I own none of the Realms, Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Eberron settings. So 4e was a way for me to get them. I could see why there is little value, and a lot of conflict, to someone who owns the old settings.
EDIT: I think expectations is the conflict others have with the Realms. If I owned 20 settings books and loved them, I would expect to say 'New books, yea!. Then when the new books came out, but they conflict, my expectations would have been destroyed. Instead of getting more beloved fluff, I would be getting something with conflicting crunch and conflicting fluff. Hence the anger. Another marketing error. Instead of giving fans their old fluff and introducing the new crunch, marketing just lost the old guard by giving them nothing but headaches.
I'm curious. What "stolen car parts from other settings" were used to make Ravenloft? The two original adventures that started the setting were stand alones.
That's what I said. Ravenloft always worked best as stand-alone, horror-themed adventures.
Sure there was some big stuff borrowed from other campaign worlds, such as Lord Soth, Vecna, & Kas (the later two of which were added much later). Most of the domains, however, were original to the setting, albeit based off of real-world myths and stories.
Some were, some weren't. Ravenloft is notorious for having made pretty liberal use of other campaign settings' figures and history in its own creation, not to mention (as you point out) a bevy of real-world myths.
Mostly because you'd need to write in several new classes worth of powers, and you'd need to make those new classes innovative, yet balanced. It's a lot of work, compared to just writing a few new races and equipment choices.
I'd be willing to bet that a psionics power source (and associated classes) is already on the table for the PHB3 or a campaign setting's player's handbook. It certainly would be the biggest undertaking in terms of creating new content, but I think it's something they're going to eventually need to explore and cover anyway.
ya know psionics could work just as easy with 4e as its magic system does.
I would look to seeing 4 classes, a controller,defender, striker and leader,
I do think powers to add to the fighters list could handle some of that however.
Scott prob is on the right track I think it'll be a full blown psionic powers book as well.
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Ravenloft is notorious for having made pretty liberal use of other campaign settings' figures and history in its own creation, not to mention (as you point out) a bevy of real-world myths.
Of course Ravenloft made use of some campaign settings in character background - that was sort of the point. It was a demiplane to which people from many different worlds were pulled. It only made sense.
Also, many aspects of D&D were pulled from real world myth and folklore (especially monsters), which would seem to make every campaign setting every done as "notorious" as Ravenloft.
Ravenloft is notorious for having made pretty liberal use of other campaign settings' figures and history in its own creation, not to mention (as you point out) a bevy of real-world myths.Of course Ravenloft made use of some campaign settings in character background - that was sort of the point. It was a demiplane to which people from many different worlds were pulled. It only made sense.
Also, many aspects of D&D were pulled from real world myth and folklore (especially monsters), which would seem to make every campaign setting every done as "notorious" as Ravenloft.
Which is exactly my point - criticizing the 4th Edition incarnation of Ravenloft as being parted out "like a stolen car" is a little silly when campaign settings (and Ravenloft especially) are often assembled piecemeal anyway.
Not really scott its not raven loft the mists was put on revers it seems and sent parts of it elsewhere. Its very anti-ravenloft all in all. I t was well written but that does not change the fact it was parted out like a stolen car.
Dark Sun is, hands down, my favorite setting of all time. I have both the original boxed sets, all the novels, and about 95% of the sourcebooks (I might have them all, can't recall).
That being said, 4E is not my favorite game. I'm sure some people like it, and that is fine, but I am not a fan.
The novels being reprinted is encouraging, as it will only increase the settings exposure and popularity. They are great books, and having them in hardcover would be nice.
I would not mind seeing a 4E Dark Sun campaign setting, and I would probably buy it too, but I would never actually run it with 4E rules. Just seeing the timeline evolved would be fine as long as they don't ruin the feel of Dark Sun. Some key areas that I hope they don't change are:
- Lack of metal and water.
- The core races. I wanna see half-giants, thri-kreen, muls, etc. I don't wanna see Dragonborn, Tieflings, or Eladrin! Halflings are feral, elves are devious, half-elves are outcasts, dwarves are hairless, gnomes are all dead :)
- Tonnes of psionics.
- Arcane magic is illegal, and harmful to the environment. Defilers!
- Divine magic is elemental in nature, no gods or deities need apply.
- Sorcerer-kings. I want more info on them beyond what has been published so far.
- Advanced beings. Spirits of the land, dragon kings, avangions, elemental lords.
If they change a couple of those, I'll be a little bit ticked off, but I can always leave that stuff out and still buy the book.
The 3rd edition Dark Sun converstion that was featured in Dungeon & Dragon magazines a few years back was very good. If you're not interested in changing editions and you already own all the fluff material, I'd suggest you give that a try.