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There are a lot of good suggestions in the alt-dualist thread but I've got a few questions about the standard dualist in case none of the new ideas get picked up.
1) d10 HD is awesome but probably too high for a gul/gal whose specialty is avoiding hits. d8?
2) 2 ranks Perform prereq - I kinda' get this because a dualist is supposed to be flashy, but maybe it ought to be a specific Perform? I don't exactly know which one - oratory or comedy so you can boast? dance so you can spin and twirl? - but some seem clearly inappropriate - stringed instruments? keyboards? Maybe any of the Performs from the bard's non-instrument track (act, comedy, dance, oratory).
3) Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Focus seem like natural feats for a dualist but they're fighter-only. I understand that normally going with a PrC means you lose access to juicy fighter feats but maybe there should be some way a dualist could still get these - either have a list of fighter-only feats a dualist can access, or the feats themselves as having a fighter/dualist prereq rather than just fighter.
4) Acrobatic Charge allows charges across difficult terrain. Cool. How 'bout also allowing one direction change. You could still require an Acrobatics check to avoid embarrassing (but potentially humorous) wipe-outs.
5)Elaborate Defense ability - this come in at 7th level and grants +1 to AC for each level of dualist, so the first time you ever use it you jump to +7! Either this should come earlier so you could actually get some +2s and +3s to AC, or maybe it should be half the dualist level. I prefer starting it earlier, to encourage more defensive fighting and full defense (it's not that unbalancing of an ability), but the instant +7 just seems weird.
6) Deflect Arrows seemed strange until I re-read the feat and saw that it's really any ranged weapon attack (or thrown object). Okay.
There are a lot of good suggestions in the alt-dualist thread but I've got a few questions about the standard dualist in case none of the new ideas get picked up.
1) d10 HD is awesome but probably too high for a gul/gal whose specialty is avoiding hits. d8?
That stood out to me, too.
2) 2 ranks Perform prereq - I kinda' get this because a dualist is supposed to be flashy, but maybe it ought to be a specific Perform? I don't exactly know which one - oratory or comedy so you can boast? dance so you can spin and twirl? - but some seem clearly inappropriate - stringed instruments? keyboards? Maybe any of the Performs from the bard's non-instrument track (act, comedy, dance, oratory).
I kind of liked the last suggestion the best, but as I thought about it, it seemed that this requirement just captures the fact that the Duelist loves to showboat and knows how to make dramatic flourishes that impress onlookers in a way that discombobulates opponents. I think any type of Perform potentially satisfies this idea.
3) Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Focus seem like natural feats for a dualist but they're fighter-only. I understand that normally going with a PrC means you lose access to juicy fighter feats but maybe there should be some way a dualist could still get these - either have a list of fighter-only feats a dualist can access, or the feats themselves as having a fighter/dualist prereq rather than just fighter.
I prefer the idea of listing exceptions in the Duelist class. I liked Jason Nelson's idea of a list of Duelist bonus feats. Also, I'd rather the core rules be expressed without reference to PrCs when possible.
4) Acrobatic Charge allows charges across difficult terrain. Cool. How 'bout also allowing one direction change. You could still require an Acrobatics check to avoid embarrassing (but potentially humorous) wipe-outs.
Jason Nelson's idea seemed to allow multiple direction changes, saying that the Duelist "need not move in a straight line". I'm having a little trouble understanding why limiting this to a single direction change is better.
EDIT: What if you required an additional check for each direction change?
The Duelist needs to retain the D10 HD so he/she doesn't get completely pulverized in a melee that they can't extricate themselves from. They also need two good saves instead of one (Fortitude and Reflex). Canny Defense should probably be re-worked so that it is dependent solely on the number of levels gained in the Prestige Class (i.e. +1 per 2 levels) instead of depending on INT (which is just going to be a dump stat).
Alright, here are a few things Sueki.
1. Duelists are THE BEST at extricating themselves from Melee, with a +8 to AC due to attacks of opportunity, and accrobatics mastery.
2. The idea of the Duelist is that Int is supposed to NOT be a dumpstat. (Hence why in 3.5 the Swashbuckler base class was so often used in concert with it, the class is made for an intelligent combatant who uses Mastery over muscle.) You take the int synergy away and you're going to be having people with 8-12 Int professing to be Duelists, which are supposed to be the smart combatants. Personally I NEVER played a duelist with less than 14 base int, before applying magic items. Level ups went into dex, but Int was 2nd priority stat, the same way that Dex/Con is for other meleeists. Also that promotes skillful duelists, with alot of skillpoints to spread around.
3. If you give the Duelist another good save, I support will rather than fort. Duelists are supposed to be strong of will and focused of mind, but there's nothing especially "tough" about their body's ability to resist diseases, poisons and such. (also this helps those who entered through Fighter as a base class, as they have the fortitude they need, and pick up where they are weak for a roughly balanced total)
The board ate my last post, so I'll be brief:
1) That's all fine and dandy until you're in a cramped dungeon corrdior or you're being grappled to death.
2) Duelists are fast. Fast != smart. The fact of the matter is that Fighters are going to be taking this class, and INT is a dump stat for most of them.
3) No good Fortitude save = getting dropped by instant death spells, poison, stunning. And PRPG Prestige Classes don't give the same bonuses to spells that they did before, so you'd end up with mediocre Fortitude and Will saves. Better to build up Fortitude and Reflex and offset the Will weakness with Feats and magical items.
Duelists are fast AND intelligent fighters. Infact, in a DUEL, typically intelligence wins more than any other feature. Speed is crucial, a small measure of strength helps, but cunning is THE key feature.
I'm not sure. There are no Int based skills required for entry to the PrC. However, a Cha based skill, Perform, is required. It's just a small clue, admittedly, so you may still be right that Int is the second-most important stat for the PrC. One could argue that the quick thinking needed by a duelist is more akin to Charisma, since it's also needed for verbal repartee and impromptu performance. And what about combat skill? A gold medal in fencing is not necessarily a measure of IQ.
I do like the idea of encouraging High Int for Duelists, but I worry about demanding it too much. It's already the limiting factor in Canny Defense and the Combat Expertise feat, so I wouldn't have Intelligence limit anything more. In fact I wish Canny Defense could scale without it, but still get some benefit from it, something like
Canny Defense: Adds n to your Dex bonus to AC, where
n = (((duelist level - 1) + (2 x Int mod)) / 3)
OR duelist level, whichever is lower
So the Canny Defense progression would look like this:
duelist (modified)
level
_____+1___+2___+3___+4___+5 << Int mod
2nd__+1___+1___+2___+2___+2
3rd__+1___+2___+2___+3___+3
4th__+1___+2___+3___+3___+4
5th__+2___+2___+3___+4___+4
6th__+2___+3___+3___+4___+5
7th__+2___+3___+4___+4___+5
8th__+3___+3___+4___+5___+5
9th__+3___+4___+4___+5___+6
10th_+3___+4___+5___+5___+6
instead of this:
duelist (Beta)
level
_____+1___+2___+3___+4___+5 << Int mod
2nd__+1___+2___+2___+2___+2
3rd__+1___+2___+3___+3___+3
4th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+4
5th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
6th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
7th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
8th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
9th__+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
10th_+1___+2___+3___+4___+5
So Int is not a dump stat, but it's also not mandatory in order for your character not to suck, as it is in the Beta.
Not a bad idea Minkscooter, making Duelists less dependent on Int. But if you want to reduce the need, why not instead make it a little more simple.
Thanks :-) Well, that's why I said "I wish", because I realized that a formula that did what I wanted would be too complicated. Of course, I'd rather it was simple, and in fact I considered the formula you suggested, but you can see that simply stacking the two factors (duelist level and Int mod) overpowers the ability:
1/2 Duelist level (round down)+ Int bonus, with Duelist total level as a maximum. Hence Duelists with a flat 10 in Int would have a +5 at level 10, but only 20 Intelligence is needed to max it out.
duelist (kyrt-ryder)
level_____+1___+2___+3___+4___+5 << Int mod
2nd__+2___+2___+2___+2___+2
3rd__+2___+3___+3___+3___+3
4th__+3___+4___+4___+4___+4
5th__+3___+4___+5___+5___+5
6th__+4___+5___+6___+6___+6
7th__+4___+5___+6___+7___+7
8th__+5___+6___+7___+8___+8
9th__+5___+6___+7___+8___+9
10th_+6___+7___+8___+9___+10
And I do like the idea of perhaps finding a way to make cha relevant to the Duelist, for the witty banter and such, but at this time I'm not sure what to do with it yet. If you've got any ideas lets hear them lol.
Jason Nelson had an interesting idea for bards that might work in this case (link here). The idea would be to make duelists better at feinting to catch opponents flat-footed. Opponents caught flat-footed could even become shaken (intimidated) if onlookers are impressed.
And on another note, shouldn't we be further supporting the use of a buckler or an off-hand parry only weapon?
That idea had a lot of support in Jason Nelson's thread (link here). I agree, and I don't see why we shouldn't allow the duelist to attack with both weapons in a round when she's willing to sacrifice something else like Canny Defense (and possibly other duelist class abilities, since it's only temporary while TWF).
Duelists are fast AND intelligent fighters. Infact, in a DUEL, typically intelligence wins more than any other feature. Speed is crucial, a small measure of strength helps, but cunning is THE key feature. And for the record, A fighter that dumps Int is NOT meant to become a duelist. The fighter that wants to become a duelist, quite simply, will not dump Int. Its that simple really.
Cunning != INT. Cunning = WIS. Hence why Half-Orcs get a bonus to WIS.
A melee character that wants to become a Duelist will put their best stats in DEX, CON, and STR. Once this is done, they'll probably go for at least a 10 in all of their mental stats. If they have the option to put a higher score in a mental stat, it will be WIS, which will allow them to offset their poor Will save. This arrangement of stats will maximize the chance the the character will live long enough to make it to 5th level in the first place, at which point they can start taking levels in the Duelist Prestige Class.
As it stands right now, the only people that would really benefit from Canny Defense (and Combat Expertise) would be high-INT characters like Bards, Rogues, and Wizards. But I don't really see anything that is so appealing about the Duelist that would compel these classes to take this Prestige Class to maximize the benefit of Canny Defense.
Isn't the primary concept of Prestige classes to expand options? The duelist class, with its focus on Intelligence, gives options, it encourages high Int fighters, as compared to the typical low int beatstick.
Do you want to further encourage A-typical stat favoritism? Or for there to be classes who take different paths and as such, different ability preferences?
Options are wonderful, but pursuing an option at the expense of your ability to survive doesn't seem like a wise course of action to me. I think you might see Duelists running around with INT/WIS scores in the 12 to 14 range, but you're not likely to see a Duelist with a INT/WIS scores in the 16 to 18 range unless the character has insanely good non-point buy ability score rolls.
Besides - with mental scores like that, you'll be more likely to walk the path of a Cleric, Wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster then a Duelist. Why spend your time fencing when you can warp reality or call down the power of the Gods to smite your foes?
I find that the Precise Strike ability should not be tied to the ability of the opponent to be susceptible to critical hits, but rather to the ability to be sneak attacked.
The Duelist is clearly more of a rogue/fighter, and since the rogues main source of damage has largely been uncoupled from the opponents immunity to critical hits, I think it should be adjudicated just as sneak attack.
Maybe you put a high score in strength for a would-be duelist, but I know I certainly don't. If my character is going to be a duelist its not going to be getting anything more than a 14 in strength. Strength simply is not the purpose of a duelist (Unless your planning to be a duelist using one of the potential two-handed weapon finesse exotic elven blades in races of the wild for using two-handed power attack on a finesse fighter)
DEX and CON get priority first, but STR will be my next priority, as I wish to do as much damage as possible what with me being a melee fighter and all.
My duelists always mass Dex first, followed by Int/con on equal footing (with myself personally favoring Int a little.) Sadly its not core, but there is a feat I generally take that does ALOT to boost the weak will save of a duelist. Its called keen intellect. (admittedly its from Dragon Mag, which alot of people don't like, but it makes more sense than using constitution, which the PHB2 feat steadfast determination allows lol.)
If it's not core, it's out the window as far as I am concerned. There are some really good Feats and Spells in some of the old splatbooks, but most of it is just awful...