The requirements for Arcane Trickster are pretty harsh, 3 levels of rogue, 5 levels of wizard (6 of sorcerer) means you can't even enter arcane trickster until 9th level. The other big issue with the class is the low BAB progression and requirement for 5 levels in a caster class means you are probably not going to hit often so the sneak attack progression isn't very useful.
My suggestion is to reduce the casting requirement or the sneak attack requirement so the class can be entered at 7th level which is inline with the Eldritch Knight.
If the class is left with 3 levels of rogue as a requirement I would suggest possibly increasing the BAB and HD of the class as well to make the sneak attack power more viable.
I wholeheartedly agree. Making Arcane Trickster accessible by 7th level is a house rule I use regularly. When you compare this to other rogue/arcane classes like Daggerspell Mage, Arcane Trickster really does pale in comparison.
The BAB increase is a good suggestion though. With how the way things are going with power, I think that is the only way to make it a desirable PrC.
Lowering the requirements so the class is available at the same time as eldritch knight is fine, but I'm against upping the BAB. The entire point of arcane trickster is sneak attacking with spells, most of which are already touch attacks. They don't need an accuracy boost at all. Nor do they need a better hit die, since they can sneak attack blast at range, while enjoying improved invisibility (what arcane trickster doesn't take invisibility spells?).
Rather than a raised BAB progression, I'd like to see 6 skill points/level. Also, the limit to ranged legerdmain no longer makes sense. I can mage hand all day, but I can only do it a couple of times with any skill? This really isn't such a good ability that it needs this silly limitation.
As for the high prereqs, these never bothered me. After all, full SA progression and full caster progression are nice.
So, in short, there are flaws with the Arcane Trickster class. My recommendations are as follows:
1) Increase skill points to 6/level. This is a combination of 2 of the most knowledgeable classes in the game. Come on.
2) Increase BaB progression to the mid-level progression (cleric, etc). This class is screwed in the BaB department from the cross-classing. It's a sneak attack build, and one that has to rely more on melee since invisibility has been neutered for ranged attacks. If sneak attack is the chief component of this class, you've got to be able to use it.
3) Allow for some combination of the Hand of the Apprentice/Ranged Ledgermain ability. It's Mage Hand, and since this class is so skilled with remote use, expand the Hand abilities (and perhaps clean up the rules) to make for something new.
Take one or all of the above. Just keep this in mind--when Arcane Trickster was designed, it was the ranged touch attack choice. It was built to let you play a rogue with magic, not be a primary caster (as mentioned previously in this thread). Spells have been added and changed, the class has been played thoroughly (and recognized as needing help--see Unseen Seer), and all in all, it hasn't weathered well. It's a great concept, and can be a lot of fun. With a few minor tweaks, it could be brilliant to play a magical rogue again.
I'm all for extra skill points, or making the class open earlier, but the BAB increase isn't really necessary:
They're supposed to use magic to sneak hex the heck out of - or, rather, into - people. They can rely on touch attacks - against flanked and/or flat-footed enemies. You don't need to be a master sniper to hit that.
invisibility has been neutered for ranged attacks.
It has? What did I miss?
I'm all for extra skill points, or making the class open earlier, but the BAB increase isn't really necessary:
I'm coming around to this POV also.
I think the prereq's are about where they need to be, considering the 100% spellcasting and sneak attack progression (vs. Eldritch Knight 90% spells and 60% feats).
It's not one of my mantra's, but caster level is king. If any prereq should be changed, it should not be the 2d6 sneak attack. Dropping the prereq to 2nd level spells would put a typical character at 7th level taking this class.
For the record, one could take Wiz5/Rog1/Ass1 and enter this class at 8th level, albeit with a +2 BAB.
I've said my piece earlier in the thread--I think two of the big issues to be considered are:
a) What role does this class play in the party?
b) When do you want a character to be able to adopt it?
Jason brought up adding skill points and easing entrance--instead of lowering the skill requirement levels, why not knock down the big hurdle, and just make the Sneak Attack requirement 1d6? It gets around the 2 dead levels of spellcasting (although giving up Evasion is tough for most)and lets characters get in the class relatively quickly. It also allows you to alter the flavor a little bit by adding on some of the elements a player may have sacrificed to get into the class--ie Uncanny Dodge or Evasion at 5th level, a bonus feat at 5th, or something of the sort.
I think allowing characters to pick this class up at 6th level instead of 8th still makes it an enjoyable class.
Going back to a), if this is a rogue with magic, you've got to decide on whether this is going to have a melee flavor, ranged flavor, or leave room for both. I bring this up because of BaB and spell backup--if you're casting a touch attack spells, it's going to be hard to stay in combat without some sort of tweak (once you've cast the first spell, you've got to withdraw to cast the second or provoke AoO). If you're going the ranged/spellwarp sniper route, it's much harder to deny an opponent Dex against your attacks without the bonus of Improved Invisibility (which, Jason, I agree shouldn't be the crutch spell of this class). Is there some way to add an ability to this class to help out with that, without doing Impromptu Sneak Attack every other level? If you want to avoid the issue altogether and give flexibility for both (or just allow straight melee), you can raise the BaB for this class only to the average (instead of poor) progression.
Rogues with spells is fun, and can be really creatively used. However, we all know this is a combat game, and the possibilities for this class should be cleared up. It's a sneak attack class--how is that sneak attack best combined with the magical aspect?
Interesting thoughts everyone.
I do not really believe this pclass to be all that balanced either. A few extra skill points and easier prereqs might be just what the doctor ordered.
Just those two things would go a long ways to making this class appealing. The only other thing I might suggest is adding back in some of the rogues signature abilities, perhaps at the expense of ranged legerdemain or instant sneak attack (which while interesting abilities seem kind of repetitive). Uncanny Dodge, and Trap Sense would both be good additions since the class will still likely wind up being used for scouting and trapfinding.
The quick bullet points:
--I agree with Dennis on the rogue perks going back in, but I don't agree that Trapfinding should be one of them. You'll have it by picking up Rogue 1, and you're going to be able to work around the additional ability with spells. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, however, are still fair game. The higher level "talents" should be left alone, to make Rogue be solid and appealing at higher levels on its own.
--Lining up the other two common "feeder" classes for AT is a good move. There are a lot of benefits to those classes, and in fact most builds I've seen for this type of character have anywhere from 4-10 levels of Unseen Seer--it's just that good of a class for what you're trying to do. The bumped up BaB seems to be a common thread, as well as the bonus features...
--Which brings me to this point: What should Pathfinder's Arcane Trickster be? You certainly want it to resemble the original, but there's an obvious trend of incorporating concepts from other classes to help streamline (ex: Archmage). I'm a fan of this--it looks like there's three classes in existence that are trying to do the job of one. That doesn't mean try to smash them all together--that's too messy, and tries to capture too many ideas. However, I think there are some good ideas to incorporate. Perhaps Silent Spell or Nondetection from Unseen Seer, or extending the Sneak Attack range at higher levles? Too much focus on spell sniping takes away from the freedom to customize, but it could help.
BOTTOM LINE: If you bump BaB to 3/4, bump skill points to 6, give access to the class at 7th level, and perhaps swap out a couple of the current abilities for some other fun toys, you'll have yourself a great class that is fun to play for that wizard/rogue character, but doesn't outshine either of the separate classes, nor does it become a must-have class-just a good flavor class.
So, since I have the time over this holiday to respond, I wanted to help flesh out the thinking on class powers. I've gone over Unseen Seer, Spellwarp Sniper, Rogue, and Wizard, and tried to evaluate the powers of each class. After some careful elimination, these are the best powers for AT to slip in:
Ray Mastery (component, Spellwarp Sniper)--only the 60' Sneak Attack range. Empower is too specific (and too powerful for AT), and Coup de Grace is a little much for a ray (and could be done by GM call)
Evasion--Great power that old AT builds came with (with rogue 3), but others gave up for the sake of Unseen Seer and caster progression. Great defense for a low HD class, but do the spells make up for it enough? Considering that most Wizards are looking for a Ring of Evasion at some later point in their careers, it might be worth looking into.
Guarded Mind (Unseen Seer)--Nondetection for a Wizard/Rogue? Great fit, but is it worth taking out another ability that a player could actively use, for a passive power?
Hand of the Apprentice--I know this power's got a lot of problems, but there's an obvious synergy between it, Mage Hand, and Ranged Ledgermain. Ranged Ledgermain could be made at-will, perhaps with higher penalties (it's competing with Knock, so I'm not sure how often someone would use it). HotA could be turned into a scaling ability-Hand of the Apprentice, Hand of the Adept, Hand of the Master, with scaling ability to do damage and use maneuvers (including Sneak Attack, thereby giving this rogue a magical flair without relying on ranged touch attacks). It would require some balancing, for sure, but I think by using one of the current spells (Persistent Blade?) as a model, or even basing it on the Ranged Ledgermain rules (penalty for remote use, but typical use otherwise), it could work and be a lot of fun.
Here's the list of abilities I nixed, and why:
Advanced Learning--too specific, and it gives you Hunter's Eye. Too powerful, when Persisted (the common build for almost every AT build I've seen).
Divination Power--good, but a little too specific. Save it for a Diviner class.
Spellwarp--Odds are, you have an at-will ray-like power, or something to boost your ranged attacks. Just not critical.
Silent Spell/Precise Shot--Good idea for bonus Feats, but given the other great options you have, not critical. Moreover, it begins to overlap with Wizard/Rogue bonus feats.
Uncanny Dodge--If you have Evasion, you shouldn't get this.
Sorry for the long posts, guys, but given our short window and the amount of things going on, I'd like to clear out some of the common thinking so we can spend more time on innovation. This could be a great class that's memorable, fun, not too powerful, and that lasts the years--IF we get it set in this forum.
Here’s a proposal for a rework of the Arcane Trickster. Many thanks to 7thson for his assistance in brainstorming.
Arcane Trickster Pathfinder Build (changes to current build only):
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4
Skill Points: 6+Int.
Requirements: Sneak Attack +1d6, Decipher Script 4 ranks, Escape Artist 4 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks, must be able to cast 3rd level spells and Mage Hand.
Level 1: Novice’s Hand—Functions as Ranged Ledgermain. If AT doesn’t have Hand of the Apprentice, gains ability to make 1 attack/round at BaB, using Int as bonus to attack and damage (no BaB bonus to damage). Attacks are made at a -2 penalty, to reflect difficulty of remote attacks. No maneuvers, sneak attacks, etc. are allowed. Range for both abilities 30ft, hand moves at 30ft, weapon or tools are brought to your hand if dismissed, weapon is drawn for you. Use of this ability (for either option) is a full action.
Level 5: Trickster’s Hand—Penalties for Ranged Ledgermain remain, but caster has the option to take 10 on the test. Hand of the Apprentice ability keeps its penalty, but now allows maneuvers and the ability to threaten (thereby allowing remote sneak attacks).
Level 9: Master’s Hand—As Trickster’s Hand, but penalties for both functions are dropped. The Trickster has such experience with telekinetic action at this point that it’s fluid.
Going this route keeps the Arcane Trickster class in relatively recognizable shape while incorporating other changes that have already happened in Pathfinder. Ranged Ledgermain stays relevant, attack options are opened up, and the need for other damage-reducing abilities are reduced, since you’re operating remotely (for the most part). Bonus Feats aren’t as necessary in this build—with so many attack options, players can choose to devote their current Feats to abilities that help boost their Hand attacks, melee attacks, or spells, depending on their flavor. Also, the need for must-have spells (ray spells, Improved Invisibility) is reduced—characters can use Trickster’s hand for magical sneak attacks, and use those spells for Nondetection, Blur, Suggestion, etc. If you want Evasion, you take another level of Rogue to get it, thereby sacrificing another caster level.
I think this version leaves the class flexible for any number of builds, while preserving the magical rogue feel. If you want to be a Spellwarp Sniper, you can still do it and have some other options (perhaps using Hand to throw a bolt, like Launch Item, but with the benefit of Int bonus), and if you want to be an Unseen Seer, you can focus on being a Diviner, with the benefit of Hand and the luxury of devoting your feats to boosting those abilities.
What do you think?
I think that dropping only a single caster level, to go into a class that gives full casting (minus school/bloodline powers) *and* full sneak attack, plus the suggested added abilities, *and* better BAB... is just silliness.
Frankly, the only prereq reduction I can see is to 2nd level spells, with +2d6 sneak attack. Rogue Talent + 3rd level spells could work, but that severely limits the class to Rogues only.
I think that dropping only a single caster level, to go into a class that gives full casting (minus school/bloodline powers) *and* full sneak attack, plus the suggested added abilities, *and* better BAB... is just silliness.
Frankly, the only prereq reduction I can see is to 2nd level spells, with +2d6 sneak attack. Rogue Talent + 3rd level spells could work, but that severely limits the class to Rogues only.
One lost is not reasonable, 2 caster levels lost is in line with Eldritch Knight. Perhaps if the class were changed to have a caster level lost at first level similar to the EK then it could be changed to +1d6 sneak attack? The problem with that is what class ability do you give the class at first level then?
I think that dropping only a single caster level, to go into a class that gives full casting (minus school/bloodline powers) *and* full sneak attack, plus the suggested added abilities, *and* better BAB... is just silliness.
****Keep in mind that most builds of Arcane Trickster go Rogue or Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer. This is already being done on the caster portion. Those that follow Unseen Seer are also getting that 3/4 BaB, the boosted skill points, and added abilities. The only thing different is the Sneak Attack progression. That said, I can still see toning something down--but what?
Frankly, the only prereq reduction I can see is to 2nd level spells, with +2d6 sneak attack. Rogue Talent + 3rd level spells could work, but that severely limits the class to Rogues only.
I don't think you need to kill 3 levels of spellcasting with Rogue. At the most, make Evasion a requirement, thereby routing players to Rogue 2, or some other class that neutralizes a level. To respond to Dennis in the same post, I can see staggering the Trickster casting back 1 full level, and I think an additional level of Rogue may be the way to do it.
Should the powers go away? Instead, would you do Nondetection and perhaps Evasion? As I've been thinking about it, HotA with Sneak Attack and threatening means a blade you can position anywhere to get a sneak attack in. What's a good way to limit this? Should it be nixed altogether?
please note the quoted text above. I inserted a comment into it.
I don't think you need to kill 3 levels of spellcasting with Rogue. At the most, make Evasion a requirement, thereby routing players to Rogue 2, or some other class that neutralizes a level. To respond to Dennis in the same post, I can see staggering the Trickster casting back 1 full level, and I think an additional level of Rogue may be the way to do it.
Should the powers go away? Instead, would you do Nondetection and perhaps Evasion? As I've been thinking about it, HotA with Sneak Attack and threatening means a blade you can position anywhere to get a sneak attack in. What's a good way to limit this? Should it be nixed altogether?
I think non-detection would be an excellent ability.
Actually that would probably be a cool first level ability. If the prereqs were:
+1d6 Sneak Attack
2nd level arcane spells
5 (or 6) ranks of spellcraft
Then add a level before the existing first level which does not advance casting but grants non-detection.
After brainstorming with a couple of colleagues, I've got a couple of new concepts to put on the table:
1) What about an ability that allowed you to take AoOs with spells? It lets the AT use that Dex and forces the class to look at other stats besides Intelligence.
2) What about expanding/altering Impromptu Sneak Attack so that it's usable a little more often, but only with spells?
3) What about restricting a floating Hand of the Apprentice with threats so that it works for only a few rounds, 1-3 times a day? Or perhaps requiring an uninterrupted line between the caster and the weapon (thereby preventing you from positioning the weapon anywhere in melee you want)?
If you're playing up the idea of the rogue/caster, then I'm with my friends offline--give the rogue something specific to the class that lets you take away defenses, and debuff an opponent--instead of buffing yourself.
My biggest issue with the arcane trickster is that the special abilities it gets are too limited. They work fine in a fifteen minute adventuring day, but if you want to make serious use of your class features you are out of luck.
My biggest issue with the arcane trickster is that the special abilities it gets are too limited. They work fine in a fifteen minute adventuring day, but if you want to make serious use of your class features you are out of luck.
This is one of the reasons I like the idea of mixing in non-detection and rogue abilities like uncanny dodge. I'm not sure how often I would use ranged legerdemain... Steal wands from enemies seems a good use.
I'm not even sure how you would adjudicate sleight of hand in combat.
Also... I would assume ranged legerdemain includes the ability to move the sleight of handed object once it's stolen? Or do you have to use mage hand the next round to retrieve the item? If so that's kind of weak.
One idea we batted around was changing Impromptu Sneak Attack to a metamagic that could be stacked with a spell, allowing a level bump to deny an opponent their Dex. It would have to be restricted, but would also allow you to get past some of the basic limits and put a more long-term limit on.
Arcane Trickster has been one of my favorite classes since it came out in 3.0. When I played it I always played it as an assassin and actually never played the assassin prestige class because this prestige class was better suited for the job of assassinating characters/NPCs.
That being said I found everything with the class to be fine other than the prereq. skills. This was a common problem in 3.0 and somewhat less in 3.5. This class's abilities are built around doing physical actions (picking locks, opening doors, picking pockets) at a distance. The required ranks should be in skills that apply to doing those things, not in things that the class has no focus in like escape artist or decipher script.
I would recommend moving the impromptu sneak attack over to the Assassin (I'll address the assassin in more detail in one of its messageboards) and replacing that ability with the ability to cast spells using the silent spell feat at no penalty at 3rd level and with the still spell feat at 6th.
If the ranged legerdemain is going to be at will since the mage hand is now at will I think that would be fine. With the given changes and this character combination would be the master of recon. It would have the rogue's trapfinding and evasion with the wizard's ability to handle things at a distance and potentially out of the effect of many traps.
I really like the idea of adding silent spell. I'm not as sure about still spell but silent is full of win :)
I'm not sure ranged legerdemain is awesome enough to merit three class feature slots. I think it's ok progressing as it is but why can't the class just progress that ability and gain a new one.
Impromptu sneak attack does seem a little out of place in this class. I think Arcane Trickster should have plenty of ways to get the drop on the bad guys.
I never really cared for the ranged legerdemain personally. I would be in favor of dropping the ability altogether and replace it with something else.
As for losing a caster level, I think keeping 3 levels of rogue as a requirement would be enough.
I like bumping skill points, but I could live with low BAB if the class had more interesting abilities.
Really? I think ranged legerdmain is actually the most thematically appropriate ability the class gets (I've always felt impromput sneak attack was antithetical for a trickster). I just want to see the artificial feeling cap removed.
Also, as much as I like capstone abilities, and as much as I like making AE spells not suck, I'm not sure the 10th level ability is appropriate. Fireball seems wrong. What about at-will telekinesis?
I don't care for Ranged Ledgermain, but I see how it fits thematically. Dennis, I don't think Ledgermain should get three separate slots--it's meant to combine with the HotA ability to keep its worth. Also, although I agree that Silent Spell and Nondetection are great theme abilities, I don't think Nondetection warrants skipping a casting level just by itself. Perhaps both in combination....
I'd rather see the class follow one or two concepts and see them through, rather than a mix of everything. It doesn't have to be the Ranged Ledgermain/HotA combo I presented, but there should be a few things that make the class fun to play and an easy, flexible theme that anyone can get. A rogue that uses spells instead of Talents could be a scout, a sniper, an assassin, a master cat-burglar--but shouldn't have to be one in particular. In its current format, the most sensible route (and therefore the most used) is a ranged touch spell sniper, with SA. It shouldn't be that. That fact has governed the class options I've presented so far.
In general I think the arcane trickster is missing his/her bag of tricks
Forgetting the number for a second I was thinking along the lines of this for flavour.
In my mind trickster should have a bag of tricks, from which would flow a seemingly endless supply of strange and odds effects. Similiar to the Deep pockets extroninday ability except what comes out of the bag are magical effects.
These effects a minor, very minor with a limited range however they can be used in tandem with normal actions. Initially requiring a move action to use they eventually only require a swift action.
e.g.
AT runs past near an opponent on their way to a flank (move)
during the move the rogue passes within 10feet of the opponent close enough to fling something out of their bag of tricks (however what comes out is random , I picture little round balls like marbles being flung out. they hit the opponent or land at their feet releasing the minor magical effect which could be a sticky goo, a stink bomb, puff of smoke.
determined by a d100 of effects
AT then end their move phase and uses their std action to cast a spell
It adds some flavor to combat without really doing much to change combat and it fits the trickster prankster motif.
also allow the AT to chose the ability that comes out if they use a std action which could be very useful for RP purposes.
Adds some flavor and fun to the class I think
By the way
Is there a list of spells that sneak attack can be applied to somewhere ? would seem a nice little appendix for the AT to have since the whole thing is based around adding sneak attack to spell dmg.
From a cursory glance I see very few spells that you could actually use and apply sneak dmg to.
However if you were to take a Wizard school power that grants a ranged touch attack at 1st level like Conj or Evo then you get at will ranged attack that can have sneak applied.
Only problem is that the dmg wont progress past a 7th level wiz which would be 3d6+3 dmg for the ranged touch, with a max of 7d6 sneak attack
maxing at 10d6+3 for staple ranged sneak attack dmg
pershpas I'm missing a really good spell or two in the regular spell list that sneak can be applied to but for an AT it would seem to make sense if the at will ranged touch magic attack was calced on Wiz+AT levels
so a Rogue3/Wiz7/AT10 would have at will 8d6+8 ranged touch attack with 7d6 potential sneak attack dmg.
Might seem high, but remember once per round only, still must overcome touch AC and can be stopped by Spell Resistance. Certainly no more powerful than any other spell at an equivalent level.
Either that or give the AT its own ranged touch attack at will power that it can apply sneak attack dmg to.
The at-will power was something I tried to add in the proposal.
As for the spells you can SA with, it's any ranged or touch attack. The trick is, though, that you've got to either a) flank the target (meaning you have to cast and then move into position or provoke an AoO) or deny Dex for ranged. Formerly, the way to do that was to go ethereal (thereby getting some form of invisibility), Invisibility proper (and it's improved form--the hallmark of this class) or a spell like Blindness or Grease. Most of these, however, have now been altered to specifically neutralize this option, stating that they do not deny Dex to an opponent. So, the issue becomes--how do you SA the target without going into melee weapon combat (which I could do as a regular rogue?)
As it has been said before, the backwards compatibility mission of Pathfinder does not include the requirement to balance against every half-baked unbalanced class that WOTC decided to throw in a splatbook.
Thanks LazarX - I was trying to word that yesterday and couldn't come up with a polite way of saying it.
Bringing up those sorts of classes can have uses for ideas and for how things can work in different ways. But they are useless as a basis for comparison of power level.
As it has been said before, the backwards compatibility mission of Pathfinder does not include the requirement to balance against every half-baked unbalanced class that WOTC decided to throw in a splatbook.Thanks LazarX - I was trying to word that yesterday and couldn't come up with a polite way of saying it.
Bringing up those sorts of classes can have uses for ideas and for how things can work in different ways. But they are useless as a basis for comparison of power level.
I wouldn't say useless. If someone has played a version of the Arcane Trickster from a splatbook that has 3/4 BAB, I'd take his word about whether it's unbalanced or not over someone who hasn't.
Similarly, if Jason proposed that sorcerers could cast spells like beguilers or warmages (e.g. they know every spell from a given list), I'd use my experience playing beguilers and warmages to judge whether I thought it was a good idea.
But on the other hand, I agree that it's ridiculous to say that every prestige class should be as powerful as the Incantatrix from Magic of Faerun (just because that's a class that WotC has published).
As it has been said before, the backwards compatibility mission of Pathfinder does not include the requirement to balance against every half-baked unbalanced class that WOTC decided to throw in a splatbook.Thanks LazarX - I was trying to word that yesterday and couldn't come up with a polite way of saying it.
Bringing up those sorts of classes can have uses for ideas and for how things can work in different ways. But they are useless as a basis for comparison of power level.
Obviously we have some different ideas about acceptable power levels, as well as the validity of classes in splatbooks. No one wants another Incantatrix--the point is to make a class that's fun for everyone and balanced in general. But thanks for trying to maintain your manners.
As far as Combat Casting goes, again, there shouldn't be one required feat for any class--including Combat Casting or Practiced Spellcaster. The class should run fine on its own, and the feats should be used to add flavor. Unseen Seer comes up because it was so often used in place of AT that it should be an indicator of what players want.
I don't think 3/4 BaB, 6 skill points, and a lower entrance requirement is too much. Scaling back Sneak Attack a bit in favor of hitting more often (albeit, with about a +2 net gain overall) isn't a bad tradeoff. You're still virtually at a wizard's BaB if he had stayed in the straight class. Ultimately, though, if it's going to change (as with anything in this game), it has to fit the bill for your style of playing (high or low power) as well as mine.
I'm not familiar with the magic tricks thing--sounds interesting!
btw does anyone else feel like the arcane trickster is a bit Warlock'ish ?
I mean all that bonus sneak attack dmg basically turn any direct touch attack spell into a big single target blast ...... which is kinda what the warlock did (without the need for flanking of course)
and is that what AT are all about now ? big single shot dmg ?
apart from the lv10 ability which seems to be a big can of surprise round whoopass, which dosent make a whole heap of sense but hey we'll use it ;)
btw does anyone else feel like the arcane trickster is a bit Warlock'ish ?
I'm not sure, I've never played Warlock but it seems to be the class that does lots of damage by sneak attacking with spells which seems similar to what I've heard about the Warlock.
It would be nice to have the class a gain a little more rogue flavor other than just sneak attack madness. Seems raising the skill points might help. Also, to a large extent the sorcerer and wizard having at will abilities that work with SA without burning spells helps. Now the AT can more utility spells in addition to their blasting spells.
LazerX -- I agree about the alignment. I didn't notice that on the prereqs, and don't have the enhancement. If it's still there I agree, tricksters should be open to any alignments rogues are.
at the moment the Arcane Trickster looks more like a Tricky Spellcaster.
How about a 1st level spellcaster entry but a (stacking) 3.5 bard like spell progression: 0 number of spells / level / day, for the higest level
and one less spell known (or learned for free)
sooner or later everyone will run out of bonus to compensate.
(This would open up to flexibility, so that a 5th level character with any combo of Rouge/Caster can qualify: 1/4 2/3 3/2 4/1
Maybe start the Sneak Attack later in the PrC so that the choice of more Rouge or Caster actually matters.
Could be something like:
1st level: Impromptu Sneak Attack;
2nd level: Ranged Legerdemain,
3rd level, and every second after: +1d6 to Sneak Attack
4th level, and every second after: +2 skill points)
.
Impromptu Sneak Attack:
improved feint does the trick for everybody else, not as reliable, but all day long, so why a flat limit?
how about reducing the damage by 1d6 per use of Impromptu Sneak Attack per day? with the reduction applicable to all sneak attacks following on that day:
- Someone with 5d6 Sneak Attack bonus does 4d6 extra damage on the first Impromptu Sneak Attack and all following Sneak Attacks that day***.
When there is only 1d6 left, the last Impromptu Sneak Attack still bypasses the targets Dex bonus to AC but does no additional damage
and till the next day**: no more Impromptu and no more extra damage to regular Sneak Attacks.
** and 8 hours rest,
*** using the feat is a strain and (repeated) use makes the hands too shaky for precise hits ;-)
.
Ranged Legerdemain:
ought to be possible with just normal Mage Hand (as an added quality for this PrC), the increase in DC is penalty enough IMO.
after all: how much does a skeleton key weigh? and how much force is needed to turn it? less tan 5 pound total I reckon. And that is the limit on Ranged Legerdemain too.
A comulative penalty might also do the trick here:
An increase of the DC by 2 or 3 per use for all following Disable and Sleight of Hand checks for the rest of the day.
a nice ability would be to have Trigger a Trap as part of the Ranged Legerdemain...
one of the handbooks has the pictire of an AT using the Ranged Legerdemain on a door with a guard in front of it. Would be cool to have be able to remove the guard by triggeing a trap in the door
and have it blamed on the wizard that installed it, for doing a mucky job)
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ranks on Escape Artist as a requirement:
what is the story behind this? what does Escape Artist have to do with any of the skills / abilities of this Class?
Looks like an arbitrary, useless drain of skill points to me.
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How much trouble would it be to put the Devine Tricster in the book as well?
sorry for the heavy editing
Really? I think ranged legerdmain is actually the most thematically appropriate ability the class gets (I've always felt impromput sneak attack was antithetical for a trickster). I just want to see the artificial feeling cap removed.
Also, as much as I like capstone abilities, and as much as I like making AE spells not suck, I'm not sure the 10th level ability is appropriate. Fireball seems wrong. What about at-will telekinesis?
I agree with Velderan that ranged legerdemain is an essential part of the PrC concept, and I would drop the limit on uses per day, just let the AT do it whenever (DC +5 is enough). I wish the capstone ability was something that had "trickster" written all over it. I don't think telekinesis quite fits (seems like a showy, non-subtle combat power, more like the force in Star Wars).
I was intrigued by the "bag of tricks" idea mentioned by Phasics.
EDIT: I'd also like to cast my vote in favor of 6 skill points per level.
Total attack bonus=+14. Now tell me, under circumstances where your opponent has a high touch AC. (Oh, I don't know who would have a high touch AC... Gishes, Monks, Psionic enemies, a good number of outsiders, well built tanks with the right feats... I'd say depending on your dm that runs from 30-70% of your opponents.)
At level 13, most opponents will be having AC's in the 30's. Lets assume 36 (this is just a random number mind, I haven't had the time to actually dig this up, but these examples are based on my experiences... )If the opponent's touch AC is 6 less than their total AC (Natural Armor, they have ways of making their armor effective against touch attacks, or they simply don't use armor and have other AC boosters) that means that our Arcane Trickster is only going to hit on a 14 or higher. Thats not reliable at all.
... Kyrt... I'm just flabbergasted at the numbers you are suggesting here. CR 13 = AC 36? That's really your experience? Ouch.
Beta page 294 puts CR 13 average AC at about 29. As for *touch* AC? It's usually far far more than 6 under the total. Natural armor doesn't count, Armor doesn't count, Shield doesn't count. That's where most creatures get their AC from. Here are the touch AC's of the 11 CR 13 creatures in the Monster manual: 11, 8, 14, 13, 10, 8, 9, 14, 14, 11, 16. Average: <12. Even if we call that 6 too *low*, our example hits on a 4.
Most outsiders don't really have high touch ACs. A well equipped PC Monk at that level (the worst case scenario for an arcane trickster).. well let's say it has the same Wis as your example has Dex, +8, another +4 from Dex, +3 from class, and a +3 ring of protection. That's AC 28. That's when you'd hit on a 14 - about the worst case.
I'm not saying creatures with high touch AC's don't get encountered, but if they are coming constantly at levels where an arcane trickster can't keep up, that's a DM issue, not a balance issue.
Total attack bonus=+14. Now tell me, under circumstances where your opponent has a high touch AC. (Oh, I don't know who would have a high touch AC... Gishes, Monks, Psionic enemies, a good number of outsiders, well built tanks with the right feats... I'd say depending on your dm that runs from 30-70% of your opponents.)
At level 13, most opponents will be having AC's in the 30's. Lets assume 36 (this is just a random number mind, I haven't had the time to actually dig this up, but these examples are based on my experiences... )If the opponent's touch AC is 6 less than their total AC (Natural Armor, they have ways of making their armor effective against touch attacks, or they simply don't use armor and have other AC boosters) that means that our Arcane Trickster is only going to hit on a 14 or higher. Thats not reliable at all.
... Kyrt... I'm just flabbergasted at the numbers you are suggesting here. CR 13 = AC 36? That's really your experience? Ouch.
Beta page 294 puts CR 13 average AC at about 29. As for *touch* AC? It's usually far far more than 6 under the total. Natural armor doesn't count, Armor doesn't count, Shield doesn't count. That's where most creatures get their AC from. Here are the touch AC's of the 11 CR 13 creatures in the Monster manual: 11, 8, 14, 13, 10, 8, 9, 14, 14, 11, 16. Average: <12. Even if we call that 6 too *low*, our example hits on a 4.
Most outsiders don't really have high touch ACs. A well equipped PC Monk at that level (the worst case scenario for an arcane trickster).. well let's say it has the same Wis as your example has Dex, +8, another +4 from Dex, +3 from class, and a +3 ring of protection. That's AC 28. That's when you'd hit on a 14 - about the worst case.
I'm not saying creatures with high touch AC's don't get encountered, but if they are coming constantly at levels where an arcane trickster can't keep up, that's a DM issue, not a balance issue.
Strong argument here. I don't know if there's any other classic tweaking that goes on here to boost touch AC (deflection bonuses?), but it's good to know what the average numbers are for ATs to hit. If you're sticking with the idea of sneak attacking with spells, it's a strong case for the lower BaB (although, remember, you're still looking at AT characters possessing lower BaBs than even a wizard). If, however, you want to diversify the class and integrate some regular attacks, with the spells being used more for support, then consider the higher BaB.
My personal preference? I love sneak attacking with spells. There was stuff in the splatbooks that made that incredibly hard to pull off, and I think it's going to be easier to do in Pathfinder, but still harder than if you're using the original core rules. So long as SA with spells can occur with reasonable frequency, regardless of level (as opposed to waiting for Improved Invisibility, then being unstoppable), it's cool.
With mage hand now being at will the ranged leg. should now be at will too. That makes too much sense. Altering the DCs is debatable and I can see both sides to that coin.
I'd leave the spell progression and sneak attack as is. The tricks the character uses right now is entirely dependent on the individual player's creativity. With the full spell progression and most of the basic rogue aspects of the class going for you, the player should be able to come up with a litany of tricks on their own.
If its something people really wanted then I'd suggest adding an element of the 3.5 trap maker into the arcane trickster in place of the impromptu sneak attack. That way there is the added element of being "tricky" I think is reasonable to want in a class like this.