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I can totally see the place for a Knowledge (regional) skill if you're playing a game focused on a narrow geographic area. But if I have 10 ranks in Knowledge (Riddleport), and then the campaign shifts to Absalom, I'm screwed.
Sometime I think the existing Knowledge (local) would be better named "Streetwise." It doesn't represent actual specific Knowledge, rather it's knowledge about how to find information. When you get to a new town, you know where to look for answers. Maybe you have some contacts, maybe you just know a person like the one you're looking for would probably hang out in a place like that. There was a lot of overlap with Gather Information. But now that Gather Information has been absorbed into Diplomacy, balance is restored. Knowledge (local)/Streetwise is knowing who to ask and Diplomacy is asking.
[PS - I also think one should be able to gather information with Bluff and Intimidate.]
I prefer making it limited, but not completely universal:
this thread here
The problem with making it completely universal (besides disbelief, i.e. knowing Mwangi-Elven intra-tribal political machinations at the same time as where to find the Pesh dealer in Riddleport, when you've never stepped outside of Galt before and you don't even know what Pesh IS) is that it then REALLY overlaps too much with Know:Geography.
(except unbelievably specific)
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I prefer making it limited, but not completely universal:
this thread here
I like the idea of linking it to Affinities, although I'm not familiar with how it works in the Campaign Setting. Seems a tad complicated, but I haven't read it carefully either. I like the idea of # of Affinities = Charisma modifier.
The problem with making it completely universal (besides disbelief, i.e. knowing Mwangi-Elven intra-tribal political machinations at the same time as where to find the Pesh dealer in Riddleport, when you've never stepped outside of Galt before and you don't even know what Pesh IS) is that it then REALLY overlaps too much with Know:Geography.(except unbelievably specific)
#1 - As far as knowing Mwango-Elven intra-tribal political machinations at the same time as knowing where to find Pesh in Riddleport, that's where DCs come in. Set the DC for both things at 30. If you can actually hit that mark, it means you DO have an incredibly eclectic grab-bag of knowledge that you can draw on, maybe collected from hanging out at the docks in your native Galt and talking to sailors or listening to the stories of the blind beggar, ex-adventurer. Being able to do things with high DC is supposed to represent extraordinary feats beyond the ability of regular folks.
#1a - Here is where I see Affinities possibly playing a roll. Set the DC for finding Pesh in Riddleport really high, like DC 30. But if you have an Affinity for Riddleport, you get a +10 bonus for Knowledge (local) checks in Riddleport. That drops it to DC 20, which somebody with ranks in Knowledge (local) should be able to hit with a few retries or certainly by taking 20.
#2 - As far as the overlap between Knowledge (local) and Knowledge (geography), I'm okay with that. Actually, there is an overlap between K (local) and K (history) and K (nobility) too. But I'm okay with that too. I wrote about it in this thread, but briefly, I see K (history, geography, nobility) as being broad skills; you know about a lot of places and understand the general methodology of the field, i.e., you "get" how history works, how different geographies are interrelated, the ins and outs of nobility. You have some specific knowledge about a lot of different places and can even apply you knowledge systems to new places. I can walk into any restaurant in the world and get food even if I don't speak the language or understand their way of ordering because I "get" the idea of restaurants. Whereas K (local) is deep and incredibly specific. You know about the history and geography and nobility (and culture and economics and botany, etc.) of one specific place. But you have almost no ability to apply that knowledge to other places. There is certainly overlap, but it's a trade off. Do I want general geography skills that I can use anywhere, or to be really good at my home town but a lump anywhere else?
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Maybe Knowledge (Local) should be turned into a new skill called 'Streetwise', which would work just like in 4E?
In the other thread I referenced, my thought was to split it in two - Streetwise: knowing where to look for information; and Knowledge (specific region): knowing a lot about a specific place.
Maybe Knowledge (Local) should be turned into a new skill called 'Streetwise', which would work just like in 4E?
Dunno how it works in 4e, but I use a Streetwise skill that covers Knowledge (local) + Gather Information + Recognize famous/infamous people.
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Here's a thought:
Treat Knowledge (local) like Speak Language (or Linguistics) - the standard benefit is the ability to know general things like applicable creatures, and things like the proposed Streetwise skill.
The secondary benefit is that for every rank in the skill, you select one region/settlement to which you can apply the specialized use of the skill. Then you list these locations similar to the languages you speak.
Example: Erik has 2 ranks in Knowledge (local). With his Intelligence score and class skill bonus he has a final modifier of +7. He has a +7 on checks to identify humanoids and other such creatures, to find his way in a towns streets, and to identify the basic characteristics of a settlement such as size and makeup.
Erik selects 2 regions/settlements for this skill, choosing Riddleport and Magnimar. Erik can now recall specific information regarding those two places, such as prominent figures, town history, and important trading locales.
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Here's a thought:
Treat Knowledge (local) like Speak Language (or Linguistics) - the standard benefit is the ability to know general things like applicable creatures, and things like the proposed Streetwise skill.
The secondary benefit is that for every rank in the skill, you select one region/settlement to which you can apply the specialized use of the skill. Then you list these locations similar to the languages you speak.
Example: Erik has 2 ranks in Knowledge (local). With his Intelligence score and class skill bonus he has a final modifier of +7. He has a +7 on checks to identify humanoids and other such creatures, to find his way in a towns streets, and to identify the basic characteristics of a settlement such as size and makeup.
Erik selects 2 regions/settlements for this skill, choosing Riddleport and Magnimar. Erik can now recall specific information regarding those two places, such as prominent figures, town history, and important trading locales.
Could work. Kind of like Quandary's idea and what I was saying about Affinities, you'd want to set the DCs for specific information pretty high and give folks with the Affinity or who have selected a region/settlement a big bonus, like +10. That way, they'd almost automatically know stuff about their place and others, who haven't selected it, would still have a chance, but it'd require more luck.
Could this idea be combines with Affinities? Make Affinities like hometowns/homelands. The number would be based on Cha bonus and offer nice bonuses in a couple of areas (Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Knowledge (local), etc) while operating in those areas. Knowledge (local) would be areas you know about but aren't as strong, emotionally ties to. The number would be based on ranks in Knowledge (local) and would just give bonuses to knowing stuff about the place.
EDIT: I had an idea similar this for Linguistics and learning languages.
Now, stealing Jal Dorak's idea for 1 region of familiarity per rank, maybe for each rank in Linguistics you also get one language that you are familiar with. Not fluent, like your native Int-granted languages, but ones you know pretty well and get a big bonus on when trying to communicate.
You end up with 3 degrees of language ability: Fluent, Int-granted languages that require no checks; Learned languages from ranks in Linguistics that require checks, but with a bonus beg enough to make them pretty safe, at least for day-to-day purposes; and other languages that you can try to fake with Linguistics checks, the more ranks the more likely you can gist it out, but no actual skill in the language, just general linguistics skill.
This would parallel the Knowledge (local) degrees I was talking about: Homeland affinities granted by Cha with bonuses in several areas; regions of knowledge with big bonuses to Knowledge (local) but nothing else; and other regions where you can use your general streetsmarts to figure things out but don't have any specific knowledge of.
Just an idea.
* This could be a model for other skills as well, like Perform and Craft. Several skills working in the same way would be nice, better than each one having its own unique sub-system.
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This could be a model for other skills as well, like Perform and Craft.Here's a thought:
Treat Knowledge (local) like Speak Language (or Linguistics) - the standard benefit is the ability to know general things like applicable creatures, and things like the proposed Streetwise skill.
The secondary benefit is that for every rank in the skill, you select one region/settlement to which you can apply the specialized use of the skill. Then you list these locations similar to the languages you speak.
Example: Erik has 2 ranks in Knowledge (local). With his Intelligence score and class skill bonus he has a final modifier of +7. He has a +7 on checks to identify humanoids and other such creatures, to find his way in a towns streets, and to identify the basic characteristics of a settlement such as size and makeup.
Erik selects 2 regions/settlements for this skill, choosing Riddleport and Magnimar. Erik can now recall specific information regarding those two places, such as prominent figures, town history, and important trading locales.
Definitely a good idea. Especially with the reduced number of skill points in PRPG (or for those who think 3.5 is limited in skills as well). It allows a character to gain expertise in a variety of areas without going overboard on the character sheet. Or you can get more specialized: Have Craft (Bowying) break down into bows, crossbows, ammunition, etc.
Some good ideas that mesh well with my Affinities proposal.
I think the only problem with allowing a "general" usage of K(Local) (on top of Affinities, analogous to Speak Languages) is that there already IS a Skill for learning info in locales you're not necessarily familiar with:
Diplomacy/Gather Info. A character with a maxed Diplomacy/Gather Info should generally be able to find out the info that a "local" with high Know(Local) would know, though it may take some time/ Roleplaying scenes. This regime seems alot more 'rational' than giving characters the ability to know the intricacies of local politics in foreign societies they've never even heard of before, WITHOUT EVER SPEAKING TO ANYBODY, or even speaking the local language.
I can definitely also see the case for synergies to Diplomacy from the appropriate Know(Local), as well as penalties from not speaking the Language (so if you don't speak Elven, you have a penalty Know(Local) checks about intricacies of the local Elven community in Absalom). I could also see a synergy from Know(Geography) to Know(Local) in ALL Localities, as you're just overall familiar with how Humanoid Societies organize themselves.
Mosaic: Your idea definitely works, but I think it's a bit too complicated for Pathfinder, which is generally aiming for SIMPLIFICATION. Same with breaking Craft into parts that each need 1 rank to use, it's just too much detail, unfortunately. I thought the possibility of making Affinities/CHA work like Languages/INT might be viable, because it uses the same familiar system already present for Languages. Gaining new Affinities works slightly different compared to Languages (since I liked the feel of saying you can only be 'in the groove' with so many Localities at once, based on CHA), but since that aspect also meshes with and re-inforces the Affinities sub-system, it also doesn't seem to complicate things much (and by 're-using' the Affinities sub-system, gives it more 'presence')
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Some good ideas that mesh well with my Affinities proposal.
I think the only problem with allowing a "general" usage of K(Local) (on top of Affinities, analogous to Speak Languages) is that there already IS a Skill for learning info in locales you're not necessarily familiar with:
Diplomacy/Gather Info. A character with a maxed Diplomacy/Gather Info should generally be able to find out the info that a "local" with high Know(Local) would know, though it may take some time/ Roleplaying scenes. This regime seems alot more 'rational' than giving characters the ability to know the intricacies of local politics in foreign societies they've never even heard of before, WITHOUT EVER SPEAKING TO ANYBODY, or even speaking the local language.
I can definitely also see the case for synergies to Diplomacy from the appropriate Know(Local), as well as penalties from not speaking the Language (so if you don't speak Elven, you have a penalty Know(Local) checks about intricacies of the local Elven community in Absalom). I could also see a synergy from Know(Geography) to Know(Local) in ALL Localities, as you're just overall familiar with how Humanoid Societies organize themselves.
Mosaic: Your idea definitely works, but I think it's a bit too complicated for Pathfinder, which is generally aiming for SIMPLIFICATION. Same with breaking Craft into parts that each need 1 rank to use, it's just too much detail, unfortunately. I thought the possibility of making Affinities/CHA work like Languages/INT might be viable, because it uses the same familiar system already present for Languages. Gaining new Affinities works slightly different compared to Languages (since I liked the feel of saying you can only be 'in the groove' with so many Localities at once, based on CHA), but since that aspect also meshes with and re-inforces the Affinities sub-system, it also doesn't seem to complicate things much (and by 're-using' the Affinities sub-system, gives it more 'presence')
I agree with Mosaic's basic idea, and I think it would work fine if the system is kept simple (i.e. one country/region for each rank of Knowledge Local). This way, a level 20 with max ranks (i.e. 20 ranks) knows about 20 countries really well, which would be representative of a well-traveled individual methinks. I think Knowledge: Local should also be used to represent the "worldliness" of a PC (i.e. when they meet NPCs in foreign countries, knowing to shake the left hand instead of the right one, etc.; basically anything pertaining to actual knowledge should be Int based... Diplomacy/GatherInfo is all well and fine but let us not forget that it's a Cha-based skill, and thus relies on an individual's charms; i.e. how "smooth" a guy is...) However, at the outset of a meeting or negotiations, the lead talker should make a Knowledge Local to represent his knowledge of local customs and proper etiquette.
So in short:
--> Knowledge Local: knowledge of etiquette, protocols, greetings, knowing local laws/prices/markets, and in a courtroom, knowing one's rights and knowing how to interpret laws applicable to a case (i.e. C3PO's job); and
--> Diplomacy/GatherInfo: smoothness, charms, how to make your guest relax, understanding that buying drinks can go a long way, and in a courtroom, playing to the crowd, judge and/or jury, and know how to pluck their heartstrings so as to get sympathy or make your opponent look bad (i.e. Han Solo's job).