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I'm going to apologize up front, this became a monster post idea.
Feat Concepts
What are the design goals of Feats?
- Provide special abilities for unique character creation, even when the character has the same stats and class as another.
- Provide the fighter with class abilities
Of these two goals for each feat, I believe the second goal (provide the fighter with class abilities) imposes the most on the design of feats. Full spellcasters get at least one new spell slot each level. All but spontaneous casters can change their spell suite each day. For clerics and druids, each spell slot is really one of two spells, and they can choose on the fly to use the one they memorized or their free conversion option for the spell. Sorcerors and bards cannot change their spell selection every level, but they can still change some spell selections every few levels. Also, spells scale in power by caster level. Not infinitely, but definitely.
For feats to keep fighters (and other martial characters that get combat feats) relevent, they either need to be at least as changable as the sorceror's spells, or they need to scale in power as the character grows in power, similar to caster level increasing the power of lower level spells.
I have a few personal opinions about the nature of feats:
- I prefer feats that grant new abilities or options (Power Attack, Cleave, Rapid Shot) over feats that just grant a number bonus (Weapon Focus, Point Blank Shot). I think encouraging active player participation enhances gameplay.
- Because of the above, I think feat chains should not exist for granting increasing bonuses (Weapon Focus,Weapon Specialization, et. al.). That is an area where the player should absolutely see their feats' efficacy rise with character level, BaB, or some other levelling marker - not require them to expend limited feat resources to get the full benefit of the feat chain. It adds nothing to gameplay. Rather, feat chains should build on each other to provide further gameplay actions to the player's character (I have issues with the chain, but an existing example is Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack).
- I also would like feats that are part of feat chains to be valuable at the appropriate level in and of their own right. Combat Expertise is currently not worth taking as a feat. It doesn't mesh well with the classes that want to use it, it's so limited that even those few that might get some benefit from the feat generally find it not equal to any of their other feat options out there. It was a weak feat in 3.5, and it's much worse now. The only reason anyone would ever take it now is to get to feats it is a prerequisite for. This is unacceptable. The opportunity cost of spending a feat slot on a useless feat simply to gain access to another feat is bad design because it reduces fun for experienced players and can be a trap for inexperienced players.
So what, in tangible terms, am I looking for? Below is a sample remix of the Pathfinder feat list. I'm sure some feats are too strong. Or there are corner cases I'm not thinking of. I"m sure there are many problems with this thrown together list. But please, if you have the interest, time and patience, take a look. Do these look more interesting? Would they make game play more fun (especially for martial characters, so limited in what they can do)?
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Agile Maneuvers - Unchanged.
Arcane Armor Mastery - Prerequisites: Arcane Armor Training, BaB +5, caster level 1st.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with Medium Armor. As a swift action, reduce the arcane spell failure chance due to the armor you are wearing by 20% for any spells you cast this round. This bonus replaces, and does not stack with the bonus granted by Arcane Armor Training.I added the Armor Proficiency(Medium) because of the changes I made to Armor Proficiency. I changed the remaining prerequisite to BaB so that fighter/mages could cast more easily while full arcane casters have to wait a bit to gain this - but when they do, they get the medium armor proficiency as well. A straight wizard/sorceror can pick this up at 11th level, or a full BaB meleer 4 - wizard/sorc 2 or BaB meleer 5 - wizard/sorc 1 could pick this up at 7th level (6th with 4th level fighter feat).
Arcane Armor Training - Prerequisites: BaB +2, caster level 1st.
Benefit: You gain proficiency with Light Armor. As a swift action, reduce the arcane spell failure
chance due to the armor you are wearing by 10% for any spells you cast this round. I added the Armor Proficiency(Light) because of the changes I made to Armor Proficiency. I changed the remaining prerequisite to BaB so that fighter/mages could cast more easily while full arcane casters have to wait a bit to gain this - but when they do, they get the light armor proficiency already. A straight wizard/sorceror can pick this up at 5th level, or a full BaB 1 - Wizard/sorceror 2 could pick this up at 3rd level.
Arcane Strike - Unchanged. This scales. It does point out how awful Weapon Specialization is as a feat, however.
Armor Proficiency - Benefit: You are proficient with Light, Medium and Heavy armor. When you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks. This proficiency does not remove arcane casting penalties or limits to the usability of class features limited by wearing a certain class of armor.
Normal: A character who is wearing armor with which he is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack
rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving. I think separating out the Armor proficiencies makes the feats too weak. Someone might actually be interested in taking armor proficiency feats if they weren't so weak compared to others.
Armor Mastery - Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency, BaB +5
Benefit: when you wear a type of armor with which you are proficient, your movement penalty due to armor encumbrance is reduced by 5'. This increases to 10' when you have a BaB of +15. Your armor check penalty on Dexterity and Strength based skills is reduced by 1 for every 3 skill ranks you have in each of the skills. A mounted fighter with this feat in full plate and 6 ranks in Ride would only suffer an armor penalty of 4 on his ride checks. When he has 9 ranks invested in ride, his armor check penalty on Ride checks will be reduced to 3. Armor class already can't keep up with rising attack bonuses. I want to reduce the penalties characters face for wearing armor. Since these penalties especially apply to melee characters, who already have a difficult time balancing against spellcasters, reducing the penalties they suffer in skills they are especially skilled at makes good sense and provides increasing dividends as their skill ranks not only increase their skill but remove their penalties.
Augment Summoning - Unchanged. I'd love to see increasing bonuses here, but plenty of people take this feat, so it's pretty good already.
Agile Maneuvers - Prerequisites: Overhand Chop, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a two-handed melee weapon, add double your Strength bonus to the damage roll of your first attack. If your base attack bonus is +11 or higher, add triple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of your first attack. If your base attack bonus is +16 or higher, add quadruple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of your first attack.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.I just added the next logical tier. When concerned about melee balance vs. Spellcasters, the problem grows exponentially as the character increase in level. Therefore it is more critical to continue feat effectiveness advancement at higher levels than it is at low or middle levels.
Blind Fight - Benefit: In melee, every time you miss because of concealment, you can reroll your miss chance percentile roll one time to see if you actually hit. An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however. You do not need to make Acrobatics skill checks to move at full speed while blinded.
When you have 5 skill ranks invested in the Perception skill, you gain tremorsense 5'. For each additional 5 ranks you have, you gain another 5' on the radius of your temorsense. When you have 15 skill ranks in Perception, you gain blind sight 5'. If you have 20 ranks invested in Perception, your blind sight increases to a 10' radius.
Normal: Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies.
Special: The Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.This is mostly to give meleers without access to high level sensory spells some abilities that aren't supernatural, but help them neutralize some supernatural abilities. It also makes a blind character more playable. I considered giving tremorsense 5' right off, and increasing to a maximum of 25' of tremorsense, but that hurts rogues quite badly. Blindsight of 10' seemed a good maximum to me. As all the senses are rolled into Perception, this is the equivalent of the blind Earthbender girl in Avatar or the Daredevil comic book hero - maximising their other senses to compensate for the missing one.
Caught Off-Guard - Prerequisites: Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties for using an improvised melee weapon. Unarmed opponents are flat-footed to any attacks you make with an improvised melee weapon.
When you have a base attack bonus of at least +8 you may make a bluff attempt as a swift action to render one opponent you threaten flat-footed against you. The number of oppoenents you may attempt this bluff against increases by one every time you base attack bonus has increased by a further 4 points. Opponents you succeed in bluffing against consider you unarmed and harmless - until you attack. This bluff check can only work once / day against any particular opponent with any particular object. Succeeding bluff checks with different objects may still work against an opponent, but the opponent gets +2 to their sense motive for each bluff check allowed by this feat on any day.
Normal: You take a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with an improvised weapon.Simply removing an attack penalty for an action that is sub par even with the penalty removed (weapon damage is still small compared to items built to be weapons of the same size) isn't enough to merit a feat - especially since the situations when a character would need this ability are far and few between for nealy all campaigns and characters. I wanted to increase its usefullness and the fun associated with taking this feat. This feat is wonderful for a cornered and disarmed rogue, and useful for anyone with any bluff ability in a tight spot.
Cleave - Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (at the same bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. Both of these attacks are made at your highest attack bonus. If you have a Base Attack Bonus = +11, you can make a cleave attack as a standard action. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. Melee characters at low levels don't have an issue with standing up in the party - it's at high levels that they suffer. Updating this feat to only require a standard action at high base attack bonus levels allows the fighter to do serious damage with two attacks while moving around the battlefield.
Combat Casting - I would remove this feat entirely - because I strongly believe that defensive casting should be removed or made much more difficult. The ability to cast quickly (standard action or less) and not suffer attack or spell disruption is a big part of the reason melee lag so far behind magic users at mid to high levels.
Combat Expertise - Prerequisites: Int 13, BaB +1.
Benefit: You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or full-attack action with a melee weapon. Add an amount up to 1/2 your base attack bonus (minimum 1) as a Dodge bonus to your armor class for 1 round. Subtract the same amount from your melee attack rolls for 1 round. If you are actively using a light shield, heavy shield or tower shield, add twice the amount subtracted from your melee rolls to your dodge bonus to AC. Animated shields and spells that provide a shield bonus such as 'shield' will not provide this increased Dodge bonus. Shamelessly copied from many on the boards that have proposed this in the past. This is a much needed boost to Combat Expertise that makes it retain its usefulness at high levels. It also provides a good benefit to sword and board fighters - a lack that has been strong since 3.0 came out, and that I would like to see end. Sword and board, two weapon fighting, archery and two handed weapon fighting should all have viable plusses and minuses in different situations, but at the moment, nothing approaches the two handed weapon meleer for martial characters.
Combat Reflexes - Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus. With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Normal: A character without this feat can make only one attack of opportunity per round and can’t make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
Special: The Combat Reflexes feat does not allow a rogue to use his opportunist ability more than once per round.Unchanged. Dex is a powerful stat for combat characters, tying the number of uses to the ability is not an undue burden on martial classes. The character can use this every round, and I see many characters that take this feat. Overall I don't think it needs to be changed.
Combat Training Expertise - Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Combat Training
Benefit: You can use your combat training to defend yourself against combat maneuvers. As an immediate reaction to an enemy performing a combat maneuver on you, you may add a bonus up to 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus (minimum 1) to you Combat Maneuver Bonus for the purposes of defense. This adds an equal penalty all your attacks until the end of your next turn. If you have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +11, you double the bonus to your Combat Maneuver Bonus for the purposes of defense if you are actively wielding a light, heavy or tower shield. Given the change of Improved {X} feats to Improved Combat Training, and the slightly odd prerequisites, I thought it'd make sense to distinguish between the different fighting styles introduced by getting Improved Combat Training through the strength or intelligence route. I considered removing the shield bonus when a sunder or disarm is attempted against the shield, but that added an unneeded amount of complexity, and a defensive shield posture would naturally work to protect the shield as well. I also considered adding another attack bonus in here, but figured this feat gave enough.
Craft Imbued Item - Prerequisites: Caster Level 1st.
Benefit: You can create any one use imbued item whose prerequisites you meet. The creation of scrolls can be accomplished by a crafter with this feat immediately. When the crafter reaches caster level 3rd, they can also create potions or single use wondrous items such as feather tokens. Enchanting a imbued item takes 8 hours for each 1,000 gp in its price. The effort required to create imbued items limits even creatures that normally require no rest to an 8 hour work day. After 8 hours spent crafting, a creature must wait until the next day to begin crafting imbued items again. To enchant a imbued item, you must use up raw materials costing one half of its base price.
You can also mend a broken imbued item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some imbued items incur extra costs in material components as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one. The thought process here is to simplify crafting - making it fun and less difficult. This was also already proposed on the forums by someone else, so it's not my idea, but I think it a great way to simplify things, and I think it makes sense from simulationist standpoint as well - creating one use items is easier than creating charged items, which is easier than creating continuous or command word infinite use items.
Craft Magical Item - Prerequisites: Caster Level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create any one use magical item whose prerequisites you meet. The creation of charged or charges/day wondrous items can begin immediately. The creation of wands and eternal wands can begin once the crafter has 5 caster levels. Staffs and rings with charges can be crafted by those with this feat and 12 caster levels. Enchanting a magical item takes 8 hours for each 1,000 gp in its price. The effort required to create magical items limits even creatures that normally require no rest to an 8 hour work day. After 8 hours spent crafting, a creature must wait until the next day to begin crafting magical items again. To enchant a magical item, you must use up raw materials costing one half of its base price.
You can also mend a broken magical item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some magical items incur extra costs in material components as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one. The thought process here is to simplify crafting - making it fun and less difficult. This was also already proposed on the forums by someone else, so it's not my idea, but I think it a great way to simplify things, and I think it makes sense from simulationist standpoint as well - creating one use items is easier than creating charged items, which is easier than creating continuous or command word infinite use items.
Craft Wondrous Item - Prerequisites: Caster Level 5th.
Benefit: You can create any one use wondrous item whose prerequisites you meet. The creation of magical arms and armor as well as command word activated or continuous use wondrous items such as Cloak of Charisma can begin immediately. The creation of rods requires that the crafter have this feat as well as 9 caster levels. The creation of continuous or command word activated rings requires that the crafter have this feat as well as 12 caster levels. Enchanting a wondrous item takes 8 hours for each 1,000 gp in its price. The effort required to create wondrous items limits even creatures that normally require no rest to an 8 hour work day. After 8 hours spent crafting, a creature must wait until the next day to begin crafting wondrous items again. To enchant a wondrous item, you must use up raw materials costing one half of its base price.
You can also mend a broken wondrous item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item in the first place.
Some wondrous items incur extra costs in material components as noted in their descriptions. These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base price. You must pay such a cost to create an item or to mend a broken one. The thought process here is to simplify crafting - making it fun and less difficult. This was also already proposed on the forums by someone else, so it's not my idea, but I think it a great way to simplify things, and I think it makes sense from simulationist standpoint as well - creating one use items is easier than creating charged items, which is easier than creating continuous or command word infinite use items. The only item type in this alternate crafting feat scheme that is changed significatly is continuous or command word activated wondrous items are delayed by two caster levels.
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Dazzling Display - Unchanged
Deadly Aim - Prerequisite: Dex 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: Add an amount equal to half your base attack bonus (minimum +1) to your ranged damage rolls for 1 round (in addition to the normal damage modifier from a high Strength score, if applicable). Subtract the same amount from your ranged attack rolls for 1 round.Changed as Combat Expertise and Power Attack were changed.
Deadly Stroke - Unchanged
Defensive Combat Training - Unchanged
Deflect Arrows - Unchanged
Devestating Blow - Just remove the "Backswing" prerequisite, as it doesn't exist here anymore. I think I'd rather have this removed, though. This leads to the heavy use of scythes and picks, which doesn't appeal to my sense of aesthetics. Eh. ^_^
Diehard - Prerequisite: Endurance.
Benefit: When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round. When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.
When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately fall unconscious or die if your Constitution score is 10 or less.
When you have 11 HD, you gain the ability to stay alive in more dire circumstances than before. When reduced to negative hit points, you do not die until your negative hit points are equal to twice your constitution score or -20, whichever is lower. You are able to act staggered until you reach -20 hit points.
Normal: A character without this feat who is reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points is unconscious and dying Again, extended just a bit at higher levels. This feat has a requirement feat, so it should be of a slightly higher tier.
Dodge - Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +1 dodge bonus to your AC until your next turn. For each each 5 ranks you have in Acrobatics, the granted dodge bonus increases by +1.Made it scale a little better, removed the punative swift action requirement.
Double Slice - I don't know what to do about this feat, but I think it's pretty pointless. It will add +1 damage to half successful hits on a 14 str meleer - +2 for 16 str and 18 str. Given the high dex requirements for two weapon fighting, much higher strengths are unlikely. I want to either remove this feat or combine it with another two weapon fighting feat in the hopes it might be worth taking. Combining it with two weapon defense (+1 to AC) might work - you're stronger with the weapon, and thus able to hit harder and deflect incoming blows more easily?
Empower Spell - Unchanged
Endurance - Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on the following checks and saves: Swim checks made to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion, Constitution checks made to continue running, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, Constitution checks made to hold your breath, Constitution checks made to avoid nonlethal damage from starvation or thirst, Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments, and Fortitude saves made to resist damage from suffocation. Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued.
If you have 5 HD increase your saves against these to +5 and ignore 5' of movement penalty due to encumbrance. If you have 10 HD, you gain +5' to your overland movement speed and saves increase to +6. At 15 HD you ignore 10' of movement penalty due to encumbrance and saves increase to +7. At 20th level you gain another +5' to your overland movement speed and your saves against these effects have a bonus of +8.I would like to give non-magical characters methods to increase their movement or grant them movemement abilities they currently don't have available even at high levels. Leaping from treetop to treetop or scaling a castle's tower quickly shouldn't be too ridiculous to contemplate for a physical character when compared to the ability of wizards at that level who can warp time.
Enlarge Spell - Unchanged
Eschew Materials - Unchanged. I'm glad sorcerors get this for free!
Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Unchanged. I would argue many "exotic" weapons shouldn't be exotic at all. But for weapons that deserve to be exotic, this is a fair feat. I suggest that anything with a crit range of x4 or more or super high damage (such as one handed bastard sword wielding) or anything with a wider crit range (18-20) should probably be exotic.
Extend Spell - Unchanged
Extra Ki - Unchanged
Extra Lay On Hands - Unchanged
Extra Rage - Unchanged
Extra Turning - Unchanged
Far Shot - Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You only suffer a -1 penalty per full range
increment between you and your target when using a
ranged weapon.
If you have a base attack bonus of at least +11, the range increment for your weapon doubles.
Normal: You suffer a -2 penalty per full range
increment
between you and your target.Far Shot should let you shoot farther.
Gorgon's Fist - Unchanged - mostly because I've never played a monk and am therefore less sure of their issues.
Great Cleave - Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and
within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks
against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they
are within your reach.
If you have a base attack bonus of +16 you may make this attack and it's subsequent attacks as part of a standard action.
You cannot attack an individual foe
more than once in a round with this feat.As with Cleave, meleers need a boost to late game combat mobility and options. Allowing this to be a standard action at high levels allows the fighter to run in and get his cleave off without hoping enemies surround him so he can use his full round action. Give the melee character more power to dictate the battle field circumstances for himself and his party - rather than making the battlefield dictate their actions to them.
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Great Fortitude - Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Fortitude saving throws. For each 5 HD you have, your Fortitude save bonus increases by 1. If you have 11 HD, once per day you may choose to not fail a fortitude saving throw when you roll a natural 1 if your save result would otherwise let you ignore or lessen the effect you are attempting a save against.Makes the feat actually worth taking. Less initial payoff - unless you already have at least 5HD, but more payoff in the end, and one really neat ability that might be useful at high levels. The once/day limitation is to prevent a high level character or monster from making themselves invulnerable indefinitely to low level magical effect and magical item induced effects (which usually have low save DCs) - but to still give them a neat ability that might come in handy every once in a while. Another option is simply giving them one reroll - they must take the second result - once per day.
Heighten Spell - Unchanged
Improved Counterspell - Unchanged
Improved Combat Training - Prerequisites: Str 13 and Power Attack or Int 13 and Combat Expertise
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when attempting combat maneuvers. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks for all attempted combat maneuvers. If you have a Base Attack Bonus of +8 your bonus when performing combat maneuvers increases to +4. If you have a Base Attack Bonus of +16, your bonus increases to +6. Monk levels are added directly to the Base Attack Bonus you gain from other class levels to calculate your effective Base Attack Bonus for this feat.
Normal: You provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a combat maneuver.Performing combat maneuvers has been made extremely difficult across the board, and the bonuses provided by the individual "Improve {X}" feats have been lessened - making these feats worth less individually. The first increased bonus comes at level 8 for full BaB characters, level 11 for middle BaB characters, and level 16 for wizards and sorcerors. I also think this will cut down on confusion by preventing different "CMB"s for disarm or bullrush or...what have you. For backwards compatibility concerns, simply give characters with an Improved {X} feat this one instead.
Improved Critical - Prerequisite: Proficient with weapon, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, your threat range is doubled.
Special: You can gain Improved Critical multiple times. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies
to a new type of weapon. This effect doesn’t stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon. If you have at least 8 levels of fighter and this feat, you may apply this feat to a weapon group that the weapon you chose resides in. Fighters need some love.
Improved Familiar - Unchanged
Improved Initiative - Unchanged. Everyone who cares about initiative takes this, so it can't be too bad. Introducing a scaling mechanic or a reroll mechanic at high levels would be cool, but probably isn't necessary.
Improved Precise Shot - Unchanged
Improved Shield Bash - Unchanged. Just adding the shield bonus to AC is awful. Shield bonuses are pretty subpar. Shield bash is already a pretty crummy option. But leaving the option for those that want it doesn't hurt anything, I guess. Meh.
Improved Turning - Unchanged. I think there may be a misprint here: "[i]Prerequisite: Ability to channel energy creatures." I think it's meant to read "Ability to channel energy."[/i]
Intimidating Prowess - Unchanged
Iron Will - Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Will saving throws. For each 5 HD you have, your Will save bonus increases by 1. If you have 11 HD, once per day you may choose to not fail a Will saving throw when you roll a natural 1 if your save result would otherwise let you ignore or lessen the effect you are attempting a save against.Makes the feat actually worth taking. Less initial payoff - unless you already have at least 5HD, but more payoff in the end, and one really neat ability that might be useful at high levels. The once/day limitation is to prevent a high level character or monster from making themselves invulnerable indefinitely to low level magical effect and magical item induced effects (which usually have low save DCs) - but to still give them a neat ability that might come in handy every once in a while. Another option is simply giving them one reroll - they must take the second result - once per day.
Leadership - Unchanged. Definitely not in need of a power up.
Lightning Reflexes - Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Reflex saving throws. For each 5 HD you have, your Reflex save bonus increases by 1. If you have 11 HD, once per day you may choose to not fail a Reflex saving throw when you roll a natural 1 if your save result would otherwise let you ignore or lessen the effect you are attempting a save against.Makes the feat actually worth taking. Less initial payoff - unless you already have at least 5HD, but more payoff in the end, and one really neat ability that might be useful at high levels. The once/day limitation is to prevent a high level character or monster from making themselves invulnerable indefinitely to low level magical effect and magical item induced effects (which usually have low save DCs) - but to still give them a neat ability that might come in handy every once in a while. Another option is simply giving them one reroll - they must take the second result - once per day.
Lightning Stance - I'm assuming this feat gives TOTAL concealment - or a 50% miss chance, if the user takes two move actions or performs a withdraw action that round. I don't know if I should change this or not so I'll leave it.
Manyshot - Unchanged
Martial Weapon Proficiency - Benefit: You make attack rolls with the selected weapon group normally.
Normal: When using a weapon with which you are not proficient, you take a 14 penalty on attack rolls.
Special: Barbarians, fighters, paladins, and rangers are proficient with all martial weapons. They need not select
this feat. You can gain Martial Weapon Proficiency multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a weapon group.This needed to be worth taking. It makes sense that training in one weapon in a weapon group gives you proficiency in all similar weapons.
Mobility - Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge.
Benefit: You get a +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against attacks of opportunity caused when you move out of or within a threatened area. You no longer have to take a -5 penalty to move full speed and use an Acrobatics check to move through an opponent's space or his threatened space.
A condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses. Dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most types of bonuses.I'm not sure if the old Mobility was enough. I don't want to add scaling on Acrobatics, because that's too much stacking AC for building up one thing.
Mounted Archery - Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: The penalty you take when using a ranged weapon while mounted is halved: -2 instead of -4 if your mount is taking a double move, and -4 instead of -8 if your mount is running. If your Base Attack Bonus is +6 or greater your penalty is halved again, -1 if your mount is making a double move, and -2 if your mount is running. If your Base Attack Bonus is +11 or greater, there is no penalty for shooting a ranged weapon while mounted. The old feat had a prerequisite feat and it still never got better than reducing your penalties by half? This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say combat feats should scale like spells scale with caster level.
Mounted Combat - Unchanged
Natural Spell - Unchanged. Druid wildshaping has been nerfed enough that I want to leave this alone.
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Overhand Chop - Benefit: As a standard action, make a single attack with a two-handed melee weapon. If you hit, roll damage normally but add double your Strength bonus to the damage roll. If you have a base attack bonus of +6, as part of a full attack action you may add double your Strength bonus to all your attacks with a two-handed melee weapon that round. If your base attack bonus is +11 or higher, add triiple your Strength bonus to the damage roll of your first attack that round.
Normal: You normally add 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls with a two-handed weapon.Let's examine this with a fighter with strength 16 and a greatsword at level 1. The new and old feat raise his damager from 1d10+4 to 1d10+6. Noticable, but hardly overwhelming. At 8th level the fighter has 20 strength with items. His damage without the feat is 1d10+7 for each attack. With the old feat and the cost of a second feat, Backswing, it's 1d10+10 for the first attack and 1d10+7 for the second Three points at 8th level - at the cost of two feats. With the new update, it's two attacks at 1d10+10. A maximum of 6 points at 8th level if both hit. Okay, but not ridiculous. At 16th level the fighter has 26 strength. Without the feat he has 3 attacks that do 1d10+12 each. With the old feat and, again, Backswing he's got 1d10+24 for one attack, and 1d10+12 for the other two. A bonus of 12 points. With this version, that fighter is doing 1d10+24 for his first attack and 1d10+16 for the others, for a total one round damage bonus of 20 from this feat (if all his attacks hit).
An examination of a reasonably min-maxed barbarian is probably necessary in analyzing this change as well.
A 1st level barbarian with 20 strength and a greatsword normally does 1d10+7 damage. With the feat he does 1d10+10 damage. At first level, +3 damage is very nice. Raging he has 24 strength, and damage 1d10+10 without the feat, 1d10+14 with - a bonus of +4 damage. An 8th level barbarian with strength 24 does 1d10+10 damage on two hits without the feat. With the old feat, he gets 1d10+14 on the first hit, 1d10+10 on the others - a total bonus damage of 4 points. With my proposal above, he gets 1d10+14 on each hit, for a potential +8 damage for the round. Nice. The raging 8th level barbarian with 28 strength does 1d10+13 each blow without the feat, 1d10+18 for the first and 1d10+13 for the second for a total bonus of +5 (whee) with the old feat, or 1d10+10 for both for a total bonus of +10 at 8th level with the new feat. At 16th level, this barbarian is still maxing out his strength bonus and has a strength score of 30. Without the feat he does 1d10+15 damage per blow. With the old version of the feat (and Backswing, a second feat) he does 1d10+30 the first hit, and 1d10+15 with all the others, for a total bonus damage of 15 points. With the proposed version he gets 1d10+30 for the first and 1d10+20 for all the others, for a possible bonus damage of 25 damage. In a greater rage, this barbarian has 36 strength. No feats: 1d10+19 for each successful hit. Old feat: 1d10+39 for first hit, 1d10+19 for others for a total possible bonus of 20. New Feat: 1d10+39 and 1d10+26 for the others, for a total possible bonus of 34.
That's actually good bonus damage possible at 16th level, especially considering critical hits. Is it too powerful? I don't think so, when a wizard gets to choose two spells which can be 8th level or lower, at this same level.
Pinpoint Targetting - Unchanged
Point Blank Shot - Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls
with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. For each +3 Base attack bonus you have, you add another +1 to damage with ranged attacks made within 30' of the target..I wanted the feat to scale a little. Full BaB character receive a maximum of +7 at 18th+ level. 3/4 BaB characters receive a maximum of +6 at 20th. 1/2 BaB character receive a maximum of +4 at 18th+ level.
Power Attack - Prerequisites: Str 13, BaB +1.
Benefit: Add an amount equal to 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus (minimum +1) to your melee damage rolls for 1 round (in addition to the normal damage modifier from a high Strength score). Subtract the same amount from your melee attack rolls for 1 round. If your attacks are made with a two-handed weapon, add an amount equal to double your Strength modifier (or your base attack bonus, whichever is lower) to your melee damage rolls for 1 round (the penalty remains the same).[/i]Updated as per Combat Expertise.
Powerful Combat Training - Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, Improved Combat Training
Benefit: You can use your combat training to improve your ability to perform combat maneuvers. When you perform a combat maneuver you may add a bonus up to 1/2 your Base Attack Bonus (minimum 1) to you Combat Maneuver Bonus. This adds an equal penalty all your attacks until the end of your next turn. If you have a Base Attack Bonus of at least +11, you double the bonus to your Combat Maneuver Bonus if you are using a two handed weapon to perform the maneuver. Given the change of Improved {X} feats to Improved Combat Training, and the slightly odd prerequisites, I thought it'd make sense to distinguish between the different fighting styles introduced by getting Improved Combat Training through the strength or intelligence route.
Precise Shot - Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have a base attack bonus of +6, you inerringly hit your target when your target is in a grapple.
Normal: When attacking an opponent engaged in melee, you take a -4 penalty on your attack roll. When attacking one of the parties of a grapple with a ranged attack, you have a 50% chance of hitting the other target in a grapple.Unchanged
Quick Draw - Unchanged
Quicken Spells - Unchanged
Rapid Reload - Unchanged
Rapid Shot - Unchanged
Razor Sharp Chair Leg - Unchanged.
Ride-By Attack - Unchanged
Run - Unchanged. I dunno, though. A feat to run an extra 30'? Although, keeping your dex is nice.
Scorpion Style - Unchanged
Selective Channeling - Unchanged
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Shield Master - This...makes no sense to me! A shield is a defensive option, not an offensive one! Why would you take all these feats to do two weapon fighting more poorly than a two weapon fighter, for maybe 3-4 AC?!? Especially at the levels this becomes available, going for higher AC is a lost battle! Cut your losses, pick up a second weapon, a real weapon, and try to do damage. I would cut this feat - but its mere existence bothers me enough I had to comment.
Shield Proficiency - Add Tower Shields.If you're taking the feat, it only makes sense.
Shot on the Run - Unchanged
Silent Spell - Unchanged
Simple Weapon Proficiency - Unchanged
Skill Focus - Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all checks involving this skill, and this skill becomes a class skill for you if it isn't already one. For each 3 ranks you have in this skill, the bonus increases by +1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new skill.I wanted the ability to expand class skills. This, of course, necessitates lowering the bonus a bit to keep a character from getting a 7+ability mod bonus to a skill for a feat and a skill point in one level. This increases to a total bonus of +7 to the skill pre-epic.
Skill Synergy - BenefitChoose one of the options from the table below. You gain +2 in the two skills indicated. Additional skill combinations may be chosen with the permmission of the GM, but all such skill combinations should be thematically linked. {Table containing things like Acrobatic, Alterneess, Athletic, etc.} Can't take credit for this one, it's all over the boards. Simple, saves space, maintains backwards compatibility all around.
Snatch Arrows - Unchanged
Spell Focus - Benefit: Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from the school of magic you select. If you have a caster level of 11, you gain another +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against spells from this school of magic.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new school of magic. Here's a pretty pickle: I want to avoid boring incremental Feats like Greater Spell Focus - even for spellcasters - but putting the caster level in the feat prevents things like taking spell focus at 1st level and greater spell focus at 3rd. Is Spell focus worth the feat without another free +1? I've only take spell focus when I had a character limited very narrowly by school due to build (gnome beguiler shadowcraft mage), or was required to take it to get into a prestige class (IotSFV).
Spell Penetration - Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on caster level checks (1d20 + caster level) made to overcome a creature’s spell resistance. You gain another +2 when you have a caster level of 11.As with Spell Focus. Thoughts?
Spirited Charge - Unchanged.
Spring Attack - Unchanged. This is one of the good feats. Provides options to martial characters.
Still Spell - Unchanged
Stunning Defense - Unchanged. Status effects upon hit = good. Some ability to be cool and have fun as a martial character.
Stunning Fist - Unchanged
Throw Anything - Unchanged. The +1 to thrown weapons is something, but does it need something like I added to Caught Off Guard? Flat-footed opponents 1/encounter or something.
Toughness - Perfect!
Trample - Unchanged
Turn Elemental - Unchanged
Turn Outsider - Unchanged
Turning Smite - Unchanged
Two Weapon Defense - I think this should be combined with another sub par two weapon fighting feat.
Two Weapon Fighting - Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. When your base attack bonus is equal to +6 and your Dexterity is at least 17, you get a second attack with your offhand weapon at a -5 penalty. when your base attack bonus is equal to +11 and your Dexterity is at least 19, you gain a third offhand attack at a -10 penalty.Maybe this is too big an advantage for Rogues. If so, maybe improved and great kick in at +5 BaB, rendering Greater impossible for a rogue. Or maybe Improved and Greater are combined into one feat - because improved two weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting are awful feats, that get worse the deeper you get into the chain. That's crazy.
Two Weapon Rend - Unchanged
Vital Strike - Unchanged. It's okay.
Weapon Finesse - Unchanged
Weapon Focus - Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon. For each +6 to your Base Attack Bonus, this bonus increases by +1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.With fighters getting this to weapon groups, I think a small boost of a max of +4 is fine. Martial characters feel the love a little too. Non martial characters get a max of +3.
Weapon Specialization - Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected exotic weapon or weapon group, Weapon Focus with selected weapon or weapon group, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using a weapon in the selected weapon group (or the exotic weapon, if one is chosen). This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 fighter levels you have after 4th. +3 at 7th fighter level, +4 at 10th fighter level, etc.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.Ho-kay! This is a FIGHTER ONLY FEAT. This is, therefore, the definition of a FIGHTER CLASS ABILITY. How would the rogues feel if you gave them +2 damage on daggers only and said "Well, folks, there's your sneak attack for the next two levels! Enjoy!
Whirlwind Attack - Unchanged
Widen Spell - Unchanged
Wind Stance - Unchanged
I like what you've got here. The only tweaks I'd like to make is to get rid of swift action requirements for feats that spellcasters would want. Pathfinder Arcane Strike, for example, is much worse than Weapon Specialization because it prevents a caster from casting his Quickened spell for the round.
That, and I'd prefer to change around feats that add small situational bonuses, like Point Blank Shot and Dodge. Their bonus is so small that the slowdown they add to the game, especially when resolving multiple attacks and the player goes "Oh, whoops, I forgot Point Blank! Do I hit now?" as one example, really gets to be a drag, even moreso when running monsters with those feats. Like with Dodge; changing it to an always-on bonus (that can be included in monster statblocks!) is a good idea.
You've also embraced the concept of scaling feats. Excellent.
Also, one other tidbit: would it be too much to just have Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will eliminate the auto-fail-on-1 aspect entirely? It would go aways towards alleviating 3.5's Russian Roulette high-level save system. I figure, at least in 3.5, spells like Death Ward would make a PC succeed (virtually) 100% of the time, why not have feats that allow the possibility of the same thing?
-Matt
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I like what you've got here. The only tweaks I'd like to make is to get rid of swift action requirements for feats that spellcasters would want. Pathfinder Arcane Strike, for example, is much worse than Weapon Specialization because it prevents a caster from casting his Quickened spell for the round.
That, and I'd prefer to change around feats that add small situational bonuses, like Point Blank Shot and Dodge. Their bonus is so small that the slowdown they add to the game, especially when resolving multiple attacks and the player goes "Oh, whoops, I forgot Point Blank! Do I hit now?" as one example, really gets to be a drag, even moreso when running monsters with those feats. Like with Dodge; changing it to an always-on bonus (that can be included in monster statblocks!) is a good idea.
You've also embraced the concept of scaling feats. Excellent.
Also, one other tidbit: would it be too much to just have Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will eliminate the auto-fail-on-1 aspect entirely? It would go aways towards alleviating 3.5's Russian Roulette high-level save system. I figure, at least in 3.5, spells like Death Ward would make a PC succeed (virtually) 100% of the time, why not have feats that allow the possibility of the same thing?
-Matt
Oh, I'm sure there are lots of tweaks needed. I'm glad someone had the time to wade through it all. hehe!
There were some classes of feats i didn't address much. One is casting feats. I was mostly concerned with pointing out how to improve feats meant for martial characters, so I didn't concentrate on spellcasting feats much. Another was monk feats. I've never played a monk, and so I didn't feel qualified to do too much with those feats.
I believe Dodge has been set to an always one bonus - which I like! Point Blank Shot suffers the same annoyance factor, I agree...not sure how to solve that except to remove it entirely, however.
I don't believe there's a problem with the save improvement feats giving you the success on a 1 if you would succeed otherwise. At low level that will pretty much never happen, and about the time it gets reasonably possible, you're already got it through the sample feat description I gave.
The reason I didn't want it to be 100% of the time is because monster HD and therefore saves will often be higher than PCs - and because of advanced monsters, I wanted to allow PCs to have the possibility of getting through a creature's defenses in a long battle with items or lower level spells. Since that is the purpose of the 1/day limit, changing it to 1/encounter would be good for me - a little more boost for the players, and not much of one for monsters, since you don't encounter the same one multiple times in the same day too often.
The reason I didn't want it to be 100% of the time is because monster HD and therefore saves will often be higher than PCs - and because of advanced monsters, I wanted to allow PCs to have the possibility of getting through a creature's defenses in a long battle with items or lower level spells. Since that is the purpose of the 1/day limit, changing it to 1/encounter would be good for me - a little more boost for the players, and not much of one for monsters, since you don't encounter the same one multiple times in the same day too often.
I do see your reasoning, but after sleeping on the issue, and reading Bagpuss's line of thinking...
Monsters and monster advancement are totally busted anyways; maybe if we don't use them as an excuse to impose limits on feats, they'll have a chance of getting fixed!
High-level Russian Roulette really stinks, especially if your game uses massive damage rules, probably the shining example of high-level Russian Roulette:
-It's a save encountered constantly.
-It's a save most likely only failed on a 1.
-Thus, over enough combats, PCs will die to it.
So I figure, removing that aspect of the game, even if one has to take feats to do it, is entirely is a good idea.
But anyways, as for Monk feats... the one thing a Monk really needs right now is less stat dependencies. Currently, Monks depend on Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, more stats than any other class. If they were reduced to only needed Dex, Con, and Wis, perhaps by allowing Monks to use Wis instead of Str/Dex with special Monk weapons, they'd be a lot more viable than the stink-pot they are now.
But that's a Monk issue, not a feat issue.
As for the issue of Fighters, though...
Why not, instead of giving them bonus feats, just give them a class feature feat tree of their own? That way, one has to be a Fighter in order to pick up those features?
Either that, or in the name of customization, just make Fighter-only feats rock just as much as other class' features do. Class features like Rage, Smite Evil, and Sneak Attack.
-Matt
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I do see your reasoning, but after sleeping on the issue, and reading Bagpuss's line of thinking...
Monsters and monster advancement are totally busted anyways; maybe if we don't use them as an excuse to impose limits on feats, they'll have a chance of getting fixed!
That's a way to look at things, but I didn't for writing this monster of a multi-post. And as it took me a week to go through the whole beta list (didn't tackle the new feats, need time to ruminate on the full repurcussions of them, though my first thought is a lot just allow martial characters to do what they should be able to do anyway), and I still want to tackle skills (Performance is a bugaboo of mine!), I'll leave it to someone else to propose alternatives.
These offerings are by no means a finished product. They're another beginning point to use to foster conversation. :) Where are my suggestions overpowered? underpowered? Poorly worded? Just plain wrong? :)
Jess I really like it. I see what you are saying with Shield bash and I have made a couple posts about that. I think the way you fix it is allow a shield bash each round at your full BAB. If you do not have the improved feat of course you still loose all bonus to AC the shield would have given. When you bash you take a - to hit = to the Armor check penalty that the shield gives. You can not bash with a buckler.
I think that makes bashing worthwhile and people would actually want to work into those feat chains. Basing it off of TWF is silly, and makes it a nearly impossible choice for anyone but a fighter who specifically wanted that route of combat. I love paladins and I would love to be a sword/board paladin who does some nice bashing every round! But in the current state, it is impossible to do.
Jess I love most of what you have here. However I must disagree about the shield mastery. A shield is not just a defensive item worn on one arm, it is a weapon. So taking feats to improve your ability to attack with that weapon is a good idea.
I would also point out that the shield bash chain is really good. Check out Benny for proof of that.
With shield mastery you get the your shield bonus to hit and damage as an enhancement bonus. With a +5 heavy shield that's +7 to hit and damage, above the d6 you start with (2d6 if you pick up bashing, that's right a 2d6 + 7 weapon that you can use with two weapon fighting)
Also shield mastery negates all the penalties for two weapon fighting with a shield, and you keep your shield bonus to AC due to having Improved Shield bash.
I hate to say it but if it wasn't for the fact that only fighters can really use this to full effect I would want it toned down.
However Fighters need all the love they can get and this is some great love for sword and boarders (sword and shield).
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Jess I love most of what you have here. However I must disagree about the shield mastery. A shield is not just a defensive item worn on one arm, it is a weapon. So taking feats to improve your ability to attack with that weapon is a good idea.
As a purely opinion based preference, I want sword and board to be distinguished from other types of martial characters as a defensive fighter that cannot be ignored. I would rather be in un-ignorable because he either inflicts negative statuses on enemies that weakens them against the sword and board's teammates, or he prevents melee and ranged access to same teammates in some manner.
I think this is because that's my image of the perfect Paladin. I absolutely love playing crusaders as "real" paladins - thicket of blades and stand still to prevent the enemy from getting to my squishy compatriots.
I would also point out that the shield bash chain is really good. Check out Benny for proof of that.
Thanks for the link, I looked these guys over shortly a couple weeks ago, but haven't spent time thinking about it, I'll take a closer look! I may prefer the sword and board to be a protective character, but if the mechanics work well another way, that's awesome.
Jess,
It goes without saying that I really like what you've done here.
Scaling feats is something you and I have discussed often before, but I never thought anyone would put the time and effort into addressing the entire collection. Good show!
I haven't had a chance to look at them in any detail yet... will get back with comments later in the week, hopefully.
Thanks again for these.
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In light of the post I made last night after reading some of Mattastrophic's posts, I did a quick run through of my feats here, since I hadn't thought of the fundamental issue of widening bonuses when I created these feats. Most don't cause a problem. Weapon Focus might exacerbate it with fighter attack bonuses, but if Power Attack and Combat Expertise come back int fully variable form, it should work out.
Save feats may be another problem - as the widening between a Cleric's will save and a rogue's will save is pretty significant already - maybe the Lightning Reflexes sorts of feats should provide a rerolls or multiple dice rolls per save instead.
Save feats may be another problem - as the widening between a Cleric's will save and a rogue's will save is pretty significant already - maybe the Lightning Reflexes sorts of feats should provide a rerolls or multiple dice rolls per save instead.
On the other hand...
Clerics don't usually take Iron Will. Rogues are the most likely candidates.
Perhaps what we're looking at doing is using the save feats not to boost saves, but to lessen the gap between Good saves and Poor saves as time goes on.
And for eliminating high-level Russian Roulette.
-Matt
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On the other hand...
Clerics don't usually take Iron Will. Rogues are the most likely candidates.
Perhaps what we're looking at doing is using the save feats not to boost saves, but to lessen the gap between Good saves and Poor saves as time goes on.
And for eliminating high-level Russian Roulette.
-Matt
True, but I don't know - do we include that the save feat you're taking must be for a feat you've got low progression in? that makes multiclassing a pain to adjudicate. Do we not worry about those few clerics that do boost their will farther into the stratosphere? Or do we just say a reroll or "double roll" mechanic is enough of a boost for both low and high save characters?
I'm wondering if Iron Will, et al., couldn't be rewritten as follows:
Iron Will
Benefit: Choose one class (base class or prestige class) in which you have at least 1 level. For purposes of that class only, your Will saves receive the "good" progression instead of the "poor" progression.
Special: If all of your classes have good will save progression, selection of this feat instead gives you a static +2 bonus to Will saves.
You may select this feat multiple times. Each time, it applies to a different class in which you have at least 1 level.
Well, what we're establishing here is that an ideal version of Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will would first require a change to the multiclass save-stacking rules, which are a huge culprit in the crime of creating large spreads of save modifiers.
-Matt
Well, what we're establishing here is that an ideal version of Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will would first require a change to the multiclass save-stacking rules, which are a huge culprit in the crime of creating large spreads of save modifiers.
Luckily, Jason has already addressed this for prestige classes. Two base classes probably aren't that great an issue, and when you start tacking three together (e.g., Ftr/Sor/Rog, to simulate all those 1e Ftr/MU/Thief characters), the "good" saves typically don't overlap all that much.
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Well, what we're establishing here is that an ideal version of Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will would first require a change to the multiclass save-stacking rules, which are a huge culprit in the crime of creating large spreads of save modifiers.Luckily, Jason has already addressed this for prestige classes. Two base classes probably aren't that great an issue, and when you start tacking three together (e.g., Ftr/Sor/Rog, to simulate all those 1e Ftr/MU/Thief characters), the "good" saves typically don't overlap all that much.
One idea we kicked around is sort of based of the changes to the skill system, which simplified things so well. If you have levels in a base or prestige class with a good save progression, you add that initial +2 bonus once. Like the class skill bonus for saves. the save progression charts are rewritten a tad to remove that +2, and it's added whenever you get a new class with a new good save progression.
One idea we kicked around is sort of based of the changes to the skill system, which simplified things so well. If you have levels in a base or prestige class with a good save progression, you add that initial +2 bonus once. Like the class skill bonus for saves. the save progression charts are rewritten a tad to remove that +2, and it's added whenever you get a new class with a new good save progression.
Hmmm... if we didn't mind totally abandoning backwards compatibility, we could redo all the save DCs and make saves into skills; Wizards would have Iron Will as a class skill, Fighters wouldn't, etc. This would supercede the need for Iron Will as a feat (you'd take Skill Focus instead). People could choose to neglect their saves in order to focus in other areas (which would be foolish, but why prevent them?). Assuming all characters maxed out all saves, the "good" saves would have a static +3 advantage over the "poor" ones, rather than having a scaling advantage.
An obvious problem is that characters who neglected to put enough points into saves would die very, very quickly. In essence, this system creates a 3-skill "tax," so from that perspective, maybe it's better to keep saves tied to class.
What was meant was to turn multiclass save progression into a fractional progression system, thus eliminating the spread caused by multiclass save-stacking.
-Each level of a Good save would add +1/2
-Each level of a Bad save would add +1/3
Then, if any of your levels has a Good save, add +2 to that save. Thus, no more stacking those +2s.
-Matt
What was meant was to turn multiclass save progression into a fractional progression system, thus eliminating the spread caused by multiclass save-stacking.
Yes, I understood exactly what was meant... and then mused on ahead a bit, and then came back. Kind of like scouting the terrain and returning with a report.
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Just a "me too" post here... I hadn't noticed this set of posts when I was recently pondering how to nicely bump the fighter. This is exactly the sort of idea I had in mind -- just some simple scaling of feats so that feats don't become "dead" at higher levels, and some rethinking of what would make a feat truly useful.
I like that fighters get feats as their customization option -- I think in concept, it works. The specific application, however, still is lacking -- these tweaks take it pretty far in being balanced and useful.
I do think the post-Beta feats help too -- or at least are the right sorts of concepts. Just having ideas like Shall Not Pass helps define what we want -- some fill-in abilities that give the fighter more options and let him do some of the stuff other classes take for granted. He has to be able to do more things besides just "I hit them" -- not only does that not scale once the game has moved away from pure HP damage counts, but it gets boring.
I certainly hope some of these ideas get reflected in the final PFRPG release; many of these would be good candidates for house rules in my games if that doesn't happen.