Jason, please be careful when using the term "flat-footed". It is not synonymous with "denied Dex bonus to AC".
So in the description of Feint under the Bluff skill, it is incorrect to say it causes "your opponent to be flat-footed against your next attack".
("flat-footed") is not synonymous with "denied Dex bonus to AC".
As a aside, are there a lot of situations where Flat-Footed is not equivalent to being denied a DEX bonus to AC? As far as I can tell, the only difference is the loss of AoOs.
In other words, could we simply ditch the Denied Dex bonus to AC for a catch all Flat-Footed condition without affecting the game?
'findel
("flat-footed") is not synonymous with "denied Dex bonus to AC".As a aside, are there a lot of situations where Flat-Footed is not equivalent to being denied a DEX bonus to AC? As far as I can tell, the only difference is the loss of AoOs.
That's probably the biggest one. Also, you can't use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.
There are various non-Core effects that only work vs. flat-footed enemies too (notably iajutsu from Oriental Adventures).
I don't see a problem with the use of "flat-footed" in this case. It just means that Jason's added a few minor perks to feint: in addition to denying your target his Dex, it also prevents your target from responding to your next attack with AOOs and immediate actions.
That's fine...but then I'll have a complaint when the Combat section is opened up (where the description for Feint says that you lose your Dex bonus, not that you're flat-footed).
Frankly, I wouldn't have a problem with lumping "no Dex bonus to AC" and "flat-footed" together. Just do it consistently. As it is in 3.5, you're either flat-footed or you're not; there's no such thing as being flat-footed against one foe but not flat-footed against another.
...indeed, 'flat-footed' against an attack doesn't make much sense...If you're flat-footed against an attack, that just means that you become flat-footed for the duration of that attack.
But "against an attack" is more specific, because even if another character is acting on the exact same initiative (and with same DEX/Init mod), the "Flat-footed" effect is only supposed to apply to the "Bluffer", not anyone else. "Flat-footed" is USUALLY applied to ANYTHING that might attack you, because it's usually triggered by a situation (not having acted yet), but in this case, Feint specifically says the Flat-footed penalties apply only vs. the Bluffer. Seems clear to me.
"Flat-footed" is USUALLY applied to ANYTHING that might attack you, because it's usually triggered by a situation (not having acted yet), but in this case, Feint specifically says the Flat-footed penalties apply only vs. the Bluffer.
Feint specifically says two different things in two different places. Under Bluff, it says "flat-footed" and under Combat, it says "denied Dex bonus to AC".
I don't really care which one changes, but it does make a difference (because of the attack of opportunity thing, mostly).
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Similar threads:
• Exactly When Can A Rogue Get A Sneak Attack?
• Flat Footed Vs. No Dex Bonus To AC
There are several cases where they are used interchangeably when they are actually quite different; flat footed has more effects that just loss of Dex bonus to AC. I keep meaning to do a search of the Beta pdf for both terms but haven't had a chance. It would be nice if this was cleaned up in the final product.
One thing you guys are missing is sneak attacks and uncanny dodge. The ability uncanny dodge prevents the state of being flatfooted, however a character can still be denied their dex bonus by multiple conditions.
Uh, actually Uncanny Dodge prevents ONLY the loss of Dex bonus while flat-footed...
See page 15 and 40.
Bluff is not synonymous with Feint.
Feint should be a combat feat/maneuver on its own but if it remains a skill then it should be a skill of it's own.
Then we should include a feat such as this:
Combat Feint
Your combat training allows you to feint opponents in combat.
Prerequisite: BAB +1 (Combat Expertise, Int 13+)?
Benefit: You may use your BAB plus your Int?Dex? in place of your Bluff skill when making a Feint attempt. You gain a +3 bonus to Feinting in this way.
So a Fighter can use his BAB as his skill check, and gets it as a "class skill" (+3). The Int or Dex bonus replaces the Cha bonus to Bluff.
If this fits the Combat Expertise tree more, then I'd go with Int. If we make it more open, then I'd go with Dex.
If we go with Int, then I'd also add another feat that lets to you get an additional +3, just like Skill Focus. Heck, make it +4. It's limited usage (not getting all benefits of Bluff) and you can't get the +2 bonus from Deceitful.
Since a Dexy fighter will likely max out his Dex more than anyone not a Bard or Sorcerer maxing his Charisma, I don't think he'll need the +4 so much and we can drop the feat.
Improved Feint would work as worded, since it's calling on the combat maneuver of feinting, not the bluff skill.
You entirely missed my point Wraith. When I made that statement, I was referring to the fact that, alot of times, a well built light armor AC masser (Duelist I'm looking at you lol) Will be nearly impervious to losing their dex AC except by feinting (because they got uncanny dodge at some point, and took other measures along the way.) This removes rogues sneak attack except with flanking, and completely kills sudden strike, the majority of the time.
Ok, point taken. I was merely talking about the definition of the flat-footed condition regarding uncanny dodge ; but you are right about agile fighters impervious to sneak attack thanks to uncanny dodge itself (a real nemesis to rogues ...)
But please, it's THE Wraith ;) ...
I thought that was THE POINT of Uncanny Dodge...
It's pretty much a Rogue thing, or other classes deemed to have certain Rogue Abilities...
But it's supposed to make them not vulnerable to Sneak Attack & the like... /shrug?