I dont know about you but to me I see iconic adventurers wielding swords, daggers and axes.
With devastating blow comes the hunt for big critical multipliers. For some wierd reason this means I now fear cloud giants wielding scythes.
Pathfinder has now made kukri a martial weapon meaning it is the small weapon of choice rather than the dagger for martial weapon users.
Maybe I am just being picky but as my high level barbarian PC's tromp out on their next adventure armed with scythes and kukris I am going to be shaking my head a little
I dont see that at all, Not sure why they would be using them any more then they did b4. And the kuri as been houserule like that since 2000 here I haven't seen an upswing in it's use. Also ya need to ask yourself where did it come from? how did you get it? why on earth would you use a farming weapon over a sword? Recall not everything brakes down to pure mechanics
I dont see that at all, Not sure why they would be using them any more then they did b4. And the kuri as been houserule like that since 2000 here I haven't seen an upswing in it's use. Also ya need to ask yourself where did it come from? how did you get it? why on earth would you use a farming weapon over a sword? Recall not everything brakes down to pure mechanics
sure, I am being a bit sarcastic here.
My point is I dislike these feats which may work ok for a sword but lead to min maxers hunting down a farming implement as their weapon of choice. It just seems wrong.
I liked in 3.0 that (ignoring the spiked chain) the standard melee weapons that were used historically and in fantasy literature were the best weapons. They didnt have to be much better (ie longsword vs heavy mace)but there seemed like a reason to use them. the problem I see is that once the 2handed str fighter gets to a certain level they are going looking for the warpick, or the scythe, not the great axe or the great sword as the optimal weapon.
Titans and Storm giants for example will presumably have figured out the scythe as the weapon de rigeur.
I want it to make sense that the standard weapons of war are weapons of war and the farming implements are not.
While you're correct that the x4 crit of the Pick and Scythe make them the choice when ultra-optimizing with incredible strength, etc., their lower damages limit their actual ability to surpass the typical Greatsword/axe wielder.
Also, Kukri was Martial as of 3.5.
The min-maxers in both 3.0 AND 3.5 gravitated toward either a large critical threat range (kukri, rapier, scimitar, falchion) or a high critical multiplier (light pick, heavy pick, scythe) weapon. The mathematics of critical hits work out so that those weapons do more damage on average, given certain minimums of Str and enhancement bonuses. Note that the probabilities are such that 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons do the same average damage in most cases (the large threat range weapons are a little worse when the minimum roll needed to hit is within the critical threat range). With Improved Critical or keen (or BOTH in 3.0) and a burst thundering 18-20/x2 or 20/x4 weapon, the average damage can really get up there (especially Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon).
I could break down the average damage for specific weapons and the minimum normal damage bonus for when the 18-20/x2 and 20/x4 weapons beat the other choices, but it's a bit of a pain. Generally, the break point is within the +2 to +6 range.
I guess that if things stay the same otherwise, Devastating Blow will be reworded so it cannot benefit from Critical feats.
Other than that, it's not that bad, it just means that fighter types can do their damage a bit more reliably, and do it while moving: Basically, instead of making your three attacks at +11/+6/+1, you only get your middle one at +6 (and later, you give up your 4th attack as well). If you do have one of those weapons that deal x4 on crits, that means you get a cecent chance on doing x4 damage. Otherwise, you'd have a good chance at doing x2 damage (hitting with your first two attacks), or maybe even more if you score a crit with one of them.
If you're hasted, you'll forego another good attack, too. You'll also forego flaming burst and the like (okay, not a big deal) and maybe your Critical feat (which is a bigger deal).
It is nice, but honestly, I'd just as soon get a falchion and get improved crit and powerful crit. Not only is it similar in power on that level, it frankly means a lot more crits in all the lower levels.
And at even higher levels, it gets really brutal, especially at level 20: 15-20/x4 crits with the falchion, automatically confirmed and with some extra effect like bleeding, blinding or stunning, with flaming burst extra damage added in, and that with 5 decent attacks (with haste)
And then add feats from other sources, like slashing flurry. That way, you might take -5 to all attacks, too, but you get yet one more. With haste that means 20/15/10/5 becomes 21/21/16/11/6 becomes 16/16/16/11/6/1. I'd say half of them hit, and one of them is a crit to boot.
Times are getting better for fighters.
Before Jason announced the new critical feats I would've agreed. Now I think Greataxes and other x3 weapons will make a comeback, at least for fighter builds.
Am I the only one(apart from my GM who banned it instantly) who thinks that Devastating Blow is broken with x4 weapons?
No; there were multiple threads on that very topic during the Alpha playtest. Jason added a -5 attack penalty, but that's the only change he made.
I agree that I would prefer to see scythes and picks used in grainfields and mines (respectively) rather than on the battlefield.
well ya know the pick was used in the dark ages and middle ages, as it made nice whole in plate. Like a screwdriver in a popcan.
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I've never personally liked the scythe as a standard weapon in the game. It never felt right as a martial weapon, or one so effective (x4 crit) and always seemed tacked on so the necro-clerics had a fun toy.
But that is a discussion for a later playtest...
As for Devastating Blow and it's prereqs, our RotRL playtest barbarian picked up a greataxe instead of a falchion or greatsword and has had great fun with it. As far as I'm concerned, mission accomplished!
Also, Galenmir from FotSG is going to hurt, a lot...
Ryn, who has always favored high threat range over high multiplier.
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well ya know the pick was used in the dark ages and middle ages, as it made nice whole in plate. Like a screwdriver in a popcan.
It was the answer to plate mail; a "warhammer" was really just the counterweight to a canopener pick end.
Until guns and longbows became the answer to platemail...
I think a scythe is just cornball. It has no functionality on a battlefield, or we would've seen a bunch of guys with plate mail marching around with scythes back in the day, instead of rascally farmers using them until they could get a proper weapon off of the battlefield.
The kukri, however, is a devastating weapon. It doesn't have much reach, so should do well in a universe whose physics are such where weapon speeds and reach don't matter unless you have a halberd.
It was the answer to plate mail; a "warhammer" was really just the counterweight to a canopener pick end. I think a scythe is just cornball. It has no functionality on a battlefield, or we would've seen a bunch of guys with plate mail marching around with scythes back in the day, instead of rascally farmers using them until they could get a proper weapon off of the battlefield. The kukri, however, is a devastating weapon. It doesn't have much reach, so should do well in a universe whose physics are such where weapon speeds and reach don't matter unless you have a halberd.
- You first have to maneuver to get a full-attack against your target.
- You must deduct DR every time you hit.
The first one I give you - which means that this feat can be useful when you do manoeuvre.
But at that time, you're unlikely to be inconvenienced by DR: PF's equivalency rules, feats that decrease SR, and, of course, the simple matter of using the right tool, will often make DR irrelevant.
That being said, if a katana is just a masterwork bastard sword, a kukri should just be a masterwork dagger. If I remember, I'll bring that up again on the design focus forum for equipment.
Hmmmm... I guess the thing is, a bastard sword is already an exotic weapon: there's no "super-exotic" upgrade feat available -- so mwk is the best you can do. The kukri is martial, vs. the dagger being simple. Dunno if that changes your thinking at all, but it's something that jumped out at me.
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well ya know the pick was used in the dark ages and middle ages, as it made nice whole in plate. Like a screwdriver in a popcan.
plus when the pick was removed, the plate stayed punctured into the wound...causing excessive bleeding...neat!
A katana is effectively a MW bastard sword...a bastard sword and katana are both slicing weapons, that can be used two handed or one handed. The Katana is folded hundreds to thousands of times to get the masterwork craftsmanship and strength.
A Kukri is NOT a dagger, they are shaped completely differently, and used differently. A dagger is a stabbing weapon, a kukri is an reverse bladed knife designed for slashing, and is weighted heavier toward the front of the blade. The only similarity is that they are short singled handed weapons.
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Cf. Jonathan Harker's unsuccessful attack against Dracula, in Bram Stoker's novel, for a nice descriptive visual.No say nothing of Jonathan Harker's successful attack against Dracula, in Bram Stoker's novel.
That being said, if a katana is just a masterwork bastard sword, a kukri should just be a masterwork dagger. If I remember, I'll bring that up again on the design focus forum for equipment.
Except a Kukri is so much better than a dagger in almost every way except stabbing someone. In fact it's really nothing like a dagger at all. It's more equivilent to a hatchet or handaxe (great camp tool).
If I'm fighting with a dagger I'll be stabbing more than slashing. A kukri uses a short chopping action. Daggers are better for quick kills by piercing internal organs and kukris are good for lopping off limbs and opening up the body cavity.
--Vrocknrolla!
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A katana is effectively a MW bastard sword...a bastard sword and katana are both slicing weapons, that can be used two handed or one handed. The Katana is folded hundreds to thousands of times to get the masterwork craftsmanship and strength.
I'm all for treating the katana as simply a bastard sword and not necessarily a masterwork one. Not every sword made in Japan was "teh roxxorz", and European bastard swords were pretty damn good. Of course, I'm probably just asking for a huge backlash from samurai fanboys. Of course, I am a samurai fanboy. I just like my knights and jannissaries too.
Except a Kukri is so much better than a dagger in almost every way except stabbing someone. In fact it's really nothing like a dagger at all. It's more equivilent to a hatchet or handaxe (great camp tool).
I don't know if I would say it is better than a dagger. Kukri's are more specialized, certainly, and possibly more versatile, but if you want to kill quickly and quietly, a dagger is pretty much the way to go. Daggers have been in use for as long as people have had bladed weapons, and relatively unchanged (note that I said relatively).
All of that being said, I don't think that D&D weapons have to mirror their real-life counterparts too closely. The cool-factor is a big piece of all of this.
And while we're at it, since when is a falchion a two-handed scimitar?
[/minirant]
And now back to your previous discussion.
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I don't know if I would say it is better than a dagger. Kukri's are more specialized, certainly, and possibly more versatile, but if you want to kill quickly and quietly, a dagger is pretty much the way to go. Daggers have been in use for as long as people have had bladed weapons, and relatively unchanged (note that I said relatively).
Like I said in every way except stabbing someone. I won't argue a good stabbing weapons versatility. I was just saying Kukris are different than daggers, more like a hatchet. Totally different uses.
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Pathfinder has now made Kukri a martial weapon.
Kukri has always been a Martial Weapon since at least 3.5 (not sure about 3.0)
I have much love for the Kukri.I have had a Dual-Kukri wielding Ninja. (2x MW Kukri's at 1st Level thanks to FR Region and Regional Feat). Fun!
One of my current PbP Characters Elizabeth Danflor uses a Kukri named Caress as her Arcane Bonded Item.
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Hmm,
Bump the expample above to lvl 20, Str is now 30 and he might even have a Greataxe +5 Brilliant Energy as his favorite toy against critable monsters. Loose the heavy armor and add the Spring Attack feat chain:
Devastating Blow:
+36; 5d12+140 damageDevastating Blow + Power Attack:
+26; 5d12+240 damageEven a DR of 30/- would be next to irrelevant.
Add feats, weapon enhancements and other misc stuff from splat books and I am sure he could come out well over 300 damage per hit. With Bounding Assault(PH2) he possibly could make two attacks at that damage.
I don't think I have a problem with a 20th level fighter being able to unleash over 200 points of damage using a special attack as long as it's relatively cheese free. As others have already stated, using a scythe to take advantage of a rules loophole is pretty damn cheesy.
Say, Tholas, you don't mind if I use your 14th level fighter here to run some expected damage graphs do you? I'll post links to them in this thread after a couple of days.
Sam
Kukri has always been a Martial Weapon since at least 3.5 (not sure about 3.0)
In 3.0, it was a tiny exotic weapon. Had it been small with the same stats, it would have been martial.
In 3.5, both tiny and small became light, so the stats fit a martial weapon.
Hmmmm... I guess the thing is, a bastard sword is already an exotic weapon: there's no "super-exotic" upgrade feat available -- so mwk is the best you can do.
There really should be simple, martial, exotic, and katana. Because katanas rock. That way, they could be the 2d10 weapons they should be!
;-)
As others have already stated, using a scythe to take advantage of a rules loophole is pretty damn cheesy.
Wouldn't call this a loophole.
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All I can say on this topic is I applaud anything that allows for a variety of weapons to be used. It gets boring just seeing longsword, dagger, axe.
That Fighter wielding a scythe stands out! Now we are building something new and exciting. The Rogue with a Kukri is different and more memorable than those other 2,000 Rogues using daggers.
By the way, I noticed this as well. Maybe it was always that way in 3.5 but I noticed it in Pathfinder. And what it immediately did was make me think "Now that would be COOL!" A reason to use something other than the same thing over and over.
Let's face it, in most games, you can replace the entire list of weapons with just, maybe five. That is so boring.
That Fighter wielding a scythe stands out... The Rogue with a Kukri is different and more memorable...
Not if every fighter is wielding a scythe and every rogue is wielding a kukri. Seeing only kukris and scythes is just as boring as seeing only swords and daggers.
That Fighter wielding a scythe stands out... The Rogue with a Kukri is different and more memorable...Not if every fighter is wielding a scythe and every rogue is wielding a kukri. Seeing only kukris and scythes is just as boring as seeing only swords and daggers.
As a caveat to my earlier post, note that to make falchions and scythes (5.75 average weapon damage) more effective than greataxes (7.15 average weapon damage) and greatswords (7.7 average weapon damage) requires a heavy investment in critical hit boosters (Improved Critical or keen, burst and thundering weapons, etc.). If that investment is not made, falchions and scythes are not very powerful. Kukris (2.825 average weapon damage) are better than daggers (2.75 average weapon damage), but as a martial weapon (and not one of the rogue base weapons) they should be, IMO; if the rogue is picking it as their Weapon Training benefit as a human, investing in a feat, or multiclassing to pick it up, then that's the player's choice. Heavy picks, rapiers, and scimitars (4.025 average weapon damage) are pretty close to battleaxes, longswords, and warhammers (4.95 average weapon damage); these are the weapons where a minimal investment in critical boosters can gain a large benefit.
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Kukris are better than daggers, but as a martial weapon (and not one of the rogue base weapons) they should be, IMO; if the rogue is investing in a feat or multiclassing to pick it up, then that's the player's choice.
That's one reason why I like the Human Bonus Martial Weapon Proficiency. MY Rogue/Wizard (see Elizabeth in my post above) took Kukri as her HBMWP, so that she could use her Arcane Bonded Kukri.
Kukris are better than daggers, but as a martial weapon (and not one of the rogue base weapons) they should be, IMO; if the rogue is investing in a feat or multiclassing to pick it up, then that's the player's choice.That's one reason why I like the Human Bonus Martial Weapon Proficiency. MY Rogue/Wizard (see Elizabeth in my post above) took Kukri as her HBMWP, so that she could use her Arcane Bonded Kukri.
I was just including the human Weapon Training in my edit. Ninja'd!
Again, that's the player's choice. A different human rogue may take greatsword (a rogue with a greatsword can make some nasty sneak attacks; see OotS, although that was a bastard sword).
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Kukris are better than daggers, but as a martial weapon (and not one of the rogue base weapons) they should be, IMO; if the rogue is investing in a feat or multiclassing to pick it up, then that's the player's choice.That's one reason why I like the Human Bonus Martial Weapon Proficiency. MY Rogue/Wizard (see Elizabeth in my post above) took Kukri as her HBMWP, so that she could use her Arcane Bonded Kukri.I was just including the human Weapon Training in my edit. Ninja'd!
Again, that's the player's choice. A different human rogue may take greatsword (a rogue with a greatsword can make some nasty sneak attacks; see OotS, although that was a bastard sword).
I really like the Human Bonus Martial Weapon Proficiency. It gives a character the chance to be... different. You can play the Wizard with the Longsword, or the Rogue with the Greataxe without sacrificing a Feat just for the flavour of your character.