Currently, the only way to charge is as a full-round action: Move up to double your speed and attack.
Some special rules allow a partial charge. For instance, a Slowed character or a zombie can make a partial charge: Same as a regular charge, except you only can move your normal speed.
I'd like to see the partial charge spelled out as a normal standard action, subject only to the restriction that you don't otherwise move that turn. This way it doesn't turn into a ersatz Spring attack (Charge-move) or a way to charge around corners (move-charge).
So what would it allow you to do?
1) Allow 1st level characters with no BaB to draw weapons and get into combat in the same turn.
2) Allow a character to open a door then charge through it. Or take some other minor action, then charge.
And most importantly:
3) Ready an action to charge, allowing fighters and other meat shields to actually get between a foe and their allies.
Under the current rules, if an enemy has enough movement to just go around your threatened area, there is nothing at all you can do to stop them from reaching their destination and beating it to death, no matter how fast you yourself can move (since your immobile off your own turn.)
With a readied charge and a speed of 30 feet, a barbarian could intercept minotaur at least 30 feet from the wizard he is protecting. Even if the minotaur has the extra movement to go around the barbarian again, he must provoke at least one AoO to do so.
All good points and it would bring some power back to melee classes
It's my opinion that a partial charge is already an acceptable ready - provide it is all you do in a turn (so you are restricting yourself to only a standard or move action).
I agree. I thought it was too. But according to the rules, it is not so.
This cropped up in my 3.x game with a fighter who had a lance and spirited charge. I came down against being able to ready a charge, even a partial one. To me, charging inside someone else's move is an unrealistic interrupt.
It's a ticklish situation because of the turn-based system. Someone comes around the corner, and they get charged. That means that the charger gets to move at least 10 feet, possibly up to 30', 40' (fast move), or 60' (haste) while the chargee is standing like a chump.
If you want to wait until someone shows up and -then- charge, then just delay. That does run the risk of the baddie getting within 10' and spoiling your charge, though.
That does make me think of another problem with 'partial charge as a standard action' - a character could single move out of combat, then partial charge back in. Yes, they'd trigger an AoO, but I know at least one character who would have happily taken that attack in exchange for charging damage.
This cropped up in my 3.x game with a fighter who had a lance and spirited charge. I came down against being able to ready a charge, even a partial one. To me, charging inside someone else's move is an unrealistic interrupt.
It's a ticklish situation because of the turn-based system. Someone comes around the corner, and they get charged. That means that the charger gets to move at least 10 feet, possibly up to 30', 40' (fast move), or 60' (haste) while the chargee is standing like a chump.
The turn-based system is trying to simulate a real time one. You're not running up when your opponent suddenly stopped moving. You're both running toward each other. (Think how jousting would work under d20.)
If you want to wait until someone shows up and -then- charge, then just delay. That does run the risk of the baddie getting within 10' and spoiling your charge, though.
That does make me think of another problem with 'partial charge as a standard action' - a character could single move out of combat, then partial charge back in. Yes, they'd trigger an AoO, but I know at least one character who would have happily taken that attack in exchange for charging damage.
Delaying would mean the Wizard behind you already got hit. Remember D&D is about a party.
Sure you could ready a simple move and become a human (or elvish, etc) speed bump, but I thought it would be nice if you could get an attack when you got there.As far as charging in and out of combat, you'll notice I wanted the restriction of not being able to move in the same turn. I'd even be alright with Russ's restriction (no other actions that turn). I don't want it to be a toy for charge builds. I want it to be a way to actually protect your allies.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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It's my opinion that a partial charge is already an acceptable ready - provide it is all you do in a turn (so you are restricting yourself to only a standard or move action).I agree. I thought it was too. But according to the rules, it is not so.
I'm saying that since Ready allows only a standard or a move action, it meets the conditions on page 149 under Charge IF you forgo your move action when you set up the ready (you've self-restricted your turn to only a standard or a move action). It's creative, but I feel it meets the spirit well and the letter well enough.
I'd like to see the partial charge spelled out as a normal standard action, subject only to the restriction that you don't otherwise move that turn. This way it doesn't turn into a ersatz Spring attack (Charge-move) or a way to charge around corners (move-charge).
I don't understand why you can not move before the charge. Or at least I don't understand why a trained fighter can not do it. So maybe it is fighter special ability to stand up and charge or go around the corner and charge. For that matter, I don't know why anything but the last ten feet must be in a straight line. In other words, I have not problem with a move around the corner for a move action and then zig-zagging for 20 feet as long as you gain momentum for that last ten feet banzai strike. The idea in my mind is that you are sacrificing getting out of the way of his attacks (minus to AC) for a more powerful strike (bonus to to hit). The ten feet and straight line part are just details to stop abuse.
To keep up this meandering thought, I think it should benefit damage as well. I also regularily let people charge while jumping or diving from above. As a matter a fact it is a house rule that you must be charging (minus to AC, bonus to hit) if you are airborne. I think this way alot. If you are doing something crazy or calculated, it usually has both a benefit and a detriment. Hence feats such as Combat Expertise and Power Attack.
All these comments are made from a non-power gamer perspective. I have no idea if someone could abuse this interpretation of the rules by stacking feats and class powers. My players and I are just trying to have fun, so this interpretation is probably full of design holes.
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The current rules allow partial charges already. See SRD quotes below (bold emphasis by PDK)
CHARGE
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)
If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that opponent.
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll. and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
A charging character gets a +2 bonus on the Strength check made to bull rush an opponent (see Bull Rush, above).
Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.
Lances and Charge Attacks: A lance deals double damage if employed by a mounted character in a charge.
Weapons Readied against a Charge: Spears, tridents, and certain other piercing weapons deal double damage when readied (set) and used against a charging character.
READY
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
Distracting Spellcasters: You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Concentration check result).
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster’s spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn’t always work.
Readying a Weapon against a Charge: You can ready certain piercing weapons, setting them to receive charges. A readied weapon of this type deals double damage if you score a hit with it against a charging character.
PDK - It is debateable if readying an action counts as being restricted to taking only a standard action. After all, you could have taken a full-round action instead. All I'm really asking for is one sentence spelling this relationship out. Like inserting the text 'Readying a partial charge: Since readying an action restricts you to taking a standard or move-equivilent action during your turn, a character may ready a partial charge.' somewhere in the readying an action block. Probably right below 'readying a weapon against a charge.'
I thought we were talking about making a Charge a Standard action for up to your movement rate but no less then 10 feet. Then the whole discusssion because easier. I understand some people do not agree about a Move before the charge.
Variant One- Movement Action Allowed Pre-Charge or Readied Action.
Then 'Yes', you can move and then charge. Then 'Yes', you can Ready a Charge. Then 'Yes', you can open a door and charge in. Then 'Yes', you can do anything that is a Move Action (like stand up). To create parallelism , I suppose it would make sense to make Readied Action a Standard Action that lets you do a Movement Action before hand. I like this because it makes Charge and Readied Action simple and not 'special'. [Note: That is how we play so maybe that is why I like it. I know my group is playing wrong, but if enough people play 'wrong' the same way it makes it the 'right' way. If everyone uses the same House or Alternate Rule, it should be the primary rule. And I know I do not know if everyone else plays this way]
Variant Two - Movement Action Not Allowed Pre-Charge or Readied Action.
This would create parallelism. Both the Readied Action and Charge would be restricted by no movement action prior to either the Charge or Readied Action. Maybe eliminate the 5 foot step allowance from Readied Action for consistancy? I don't like Variant Two because it makes Readied Action and Charge 'special'. I don't like special.
EDIT: So to help me judge, is there some aspect of splat book feats or Tripping that make Variant One bad?
EDIT2: I guess an issue might be that the Full Round Action is slowly becoming obsolete with Variant One. Off the top of my head, the three reasons for a Full Round action were Reiterative Attacks, Charge and Readied Action. I want to get rid of two of them. Which leaves only Reiterative Attacks. Were there others big reasons to use a Full Round Action? To continue my ramble, I guess it almost makes sense to add one Round Spells to the list. If we keep Charge and Readied action as a Full Round Action per Variant Two, then make a one round spell a Full Round Action. Make the wizards like everyone else that has 'reason' to do Full Round stuff. I know it eliminates the ability to disrupt the spell, I just like using similar mechanics. I can see why the 4e designers went the way they did. Reiterative attacks were standing alone and they inhibited movement. So it got the axe.
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PDK - It is debateable if readying an action counts as being restricted to taking only a standard action. After all, you could have taken a full-round action instead. All I'm really asking for is one sentence spelling this relationship out. Like inserting the text 'Readying a partial charge: Since readying an action restricts you to taking a standard or move-equivilent action during your turn, a character may ready a partial charge.' somewhere in the readying an action block. Probably right below 'readying a weapon against a charge.'
Ross, yes: I understand that the current wording could be open to interpretation. I agree that partial charge rules should be spelled out clearly.
Moreover, I think that the relationships (including precedence of AoOs) between the charge action and all of the following manoeuvres should be spelled out clearly as well:
a) bull rush;
b) overrun;
c) grapple (i.e. charge a foe and leap on him; aka flying tackle);
d) grapple big monsters (i.e. charge a monster and leap on his back);
e) ally throwing you unto someone (i.e. x-men fastball special --> everyone agrees that strong PCs should be able to throw big things around, including the party's gnome or halfling, and everyone seems to agree that rules from the "Fling Ally" feat from Races of Stone are unclear and muddy at best, and that, again, "big dudes should be able to chuck heavy stuff around" without the use of a feat);
f) dropping from a rooftop or tree for added damage on a foe;
g) trample feat;
h) spring attack;
i) jump skill;
j) fly skill (and diving while flying); and
k) thrown weapons at the end of a charge.
Thanks, WWWW
I still say you make Charge a Standard Action. Else, you are giving another reason that Charge is really not a Full-Round Action since you can use it during a Surprise Round, when your actions are limited and now as a Readied Action.
So make it a Standard Action with restictions. Charge is a Standard Action that allows you to move up to your movement rate. You must move at least ten feet and it must be in a straight line. You may use a Move Action before a Charge but it can not allow more than a five foot step of actual movement. You may not use ANY Move Action in the same round after you Charge.
The pre-Charge movement restriction now meshs with the historical Readied Action allowing a five foot step. It also allows someone hiding behind a crate to step out and charge. The Charge would now allow you to draw your sword or open a door first. It also now prevents the step back ten feet and charge back in. The post-Charge movement restriction prevents the induced Spring Attack. I presume Spring Attack would need to be modified to say you may now move after a Charge as part of its benefit.
The only loss is you can not charge the full double movement. And let's face it that was always a lot of distance to gain with an attack. But now it fits with the other actions. Give it a 10 foot movement bonus or something to give a few feet of movement back. The Charge as a Standard Action has been discussed in other threads. The general concensus, from my memory, is that Charge looks, smells, tastes and walks like a Standard Action but people had concerns about abuse.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Come to think of it, there's a no-brainer reason for it being OK to ready a partial charge (assuming you skipped your move action): a zombie or a staggered person or a person in a surprise round can do it. It's difficult to see how a person with a full-round action can't ready the same thing a person who can do only a standard action can.
I do think you need to skip the move action to pull it off, though.
Ross,
I'd be totally on-board with your suggestion as long as we can also add a combat maneuver to the list: "Check: a checked opponent cannot move for 1 round. You can perform a check maneuver in place of an attack." (It's kind of like tripping or grappling, but you don't need a trip weapon to do it, and you're not grappled.) And of course we'd add an Improved Check feat, giving you +2 on the attempt and preventing an AoO on you for doing it.
That way, our intrepid fighter or paladin could ready a partial charge, intercept a moving enemy, and prevent that enemy from walking around him afterwards.
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I like this a lot, but honestly I would make it a Feat.
Additionally I have never understood why Charging makes your attack more accurate. Shouldn't the modifier go just to damage?
I could see a nice Charge Chain developing.
Your normal basic Charge.
Improved Charge let's you use Charge as a Standard Attack and for any Charge you can maneuver while you approach the target.
Greater Charge lets you add +1 to damage for every 5 feet of movement in the Charge (got this from the Dervish and from Iron Heroes)
Superior Charge allows an extra attack at the end of the attack. This extra attack CAN be a movement based attack, including another Charge, provided you do not move more than your total standard movement amount. So I can Charge 15 feet hit a guy, bounce off and charge another 15 feet to hit another guy (provided my base move is 30 feet and I am subject to AoO this may provoke). I figure for three Feats why the heck not. Maybe make some prereqs for Int 13, Dex 13, BAB +5/+1, plus the other Charge Feats of course.
To be honest I would like to see Feat Chains like this for every combat maneuver.
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Ross,
I'd be totally on-board with your suggestion as long as we can also add a combat maneuver to the list: "Check: a checked opponent cannot move for 1 round. You can perform a check maneuver in place of an attack." (It's kind of like tripping or grappling, but you don't need a trip weapon to do it, and you're not grappled.) And of course we'd add an Improved Check feat, giving you +2 on the attempt and preventing an AoO on you for doing it.
That way, our intrepid fighter or paladin could ready a partial charge, intercept a moving enemy, and prevent that enemy from walking around him afterwards.
Ohhhh I like that!
Come to think of it, there's a no-brainer reason for it being OK to ready a partial charge (assuming you skipped your move action): a zombie or a staggered person or a person in a surprise round can do it. It's difficult to see how a person with a full-round action can't ready the same thing a person who can do only a standard action can.
That's because it is really a Standard Action that we are calling something else. ;p
Alright, I will try this argument again from a different direction. We are trying to simplify needlessly complex rules such as Grapple. Why would we create this new, needlessly complex rule called Partial Charging? This is a one step forward, one step back proposition. Alright, the analogy is not perfect since it is not so complex as just another unneccessary sub-rule. Just make it a Standard Action with restrictions.
I like all the ideas about 'Checking' and the Charge Feat Tree.
Come to think of it, there's a no-brainer reason for it being OK to ready a partial charge (assuming you skipped your move action): a zombie or a staggered person or a person in a surprise round can do it. It's difficult to see how a person with a full-round action can't ready the same thing a person who can do only a standard action can.
I do think you need to skip the move action to pull it off, though.
This is why you should be able to Move then Charge (to movement rate). If a zombie can slowly totter over to you after sucking his thumb for three seconds, why can't a normal person Move and then Charge?
I don't really care that much about moving before you charge. It just seems like we have made Full-Round Action Charge and Partial Charge as some sort of sacred cow.
Now I am going to get obnoxious. Why don't we make a Partial Full Attack action? That way when you are restricted to a standard action you can get up to half your reiterative attacks. Or a Partial Withdrawl that lets you withdrawl up to your movement rate? Yes, I know about Restricted Withdrawl. It is now on my list of Standard Actions. I also know about completing Full Round Actions in your next round.
I need to research the Beta test schedule for Actions in Combat. There are several threads about changing action resolution. I don't think Jason is looking at them since we are not in that phase yet.
OP, I agree SOMEHOW you should be able to ready a charge.
I am for the ready charge with only one time your speed.
For bonus damage, I think there is a powerful charge feat.
As for partial full attack, I think it goes too far...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I don't really care that much about moving before you charge. It just seems like we have made Full-Round Action Charge and Partial Charge as some sort of sacred cow.
I think it has more to do with horses than cows. Namley, you don't want cavalry charge builds to be able to back up and charge every round, both for balance and silliness.
Mind you, I'd be THRILLED if PF RPG would fix how broken mounted charging is.
Mind you, I'd be THRILLED if PF RPG would fix how broken mounted charging is.
Interesting. We got no Paladins in my group. I have not even looked at those feats yet.
Wouldn't the AoO make it not worth backing up and then charging? I guess a munchkined Cav Guy would do like 5 times damage on a Charge. That would make it worth it.
Just make it a Standard Action with restrictions.
I think I have a solution that does not introduce additional verbage. I don't have access to my Beta PDF right now, so I'm working from the SRD. I apologize in advance for any minor errors I might introduce. Replace text as follows:
You can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.
You can't use any other movement in the same round as a charge.
Special: You may charge as a standard action, but are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of double your speed). Note that you still may not use any other movement that round.
The new version is actually shorter!
Alternatively 'Note that you still may not use any other movement that round.' could be replaced by 'You may not take any move actions, including move-equivalent actions, that round.', depending on if you think it's OK to take non-movement move-equivalent actions like drawing a weapon or opening a door before charging. (I think it is OK, but I'm open to suggestions of actions that would be broken.)
That way, our intrepid fighter or paladin could ready a partial charge, intercept a moving enemy, and prevent that enemy from walking around him afterwards.
I'm not sure that's necessary. If our generic foe was itself charging, our fighter would have already spoiled the charge by getting in the way, since you can't charge though occupided spaces. If the foe wasn't charging, the the extra 1.5 squares of movement plus AoO(s) is probably enough to slow them down (or maybe convince the foe that the fighter needs to die first). If the opponent has 15+ spare feet of movement, before attacking, without a charge, then it sort of makes sense they can sort of dodge around you.
If the fighter really does want to 'tackle' the foe, then Bull Rush, Trip, and Grapple are all reasonable options. Even without a tripping weapon.
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Mind you, I'd be THRILLED if PF RPG would fix how broken mounted charging is.Interesting. We got no Paladins in my group. I have not even looked at those feats yet.
Wouldn't the AoO make it not worth backing up and then charging? I guess a munchkined Cav Guy would do like 5 times damage on a Charge. That would make it worth it.
A heavily armored fighter generally isn't too concerned with AoOs. At least I never have been. The chances of them hitting are slim, then they have to deal with my Fortification in case they get a lucky crit. Otherwise it was just another hit, no biggie.
I had not even considered how that would work mounted.
Honestly, mounted rules should be entirely different than rules for on foot. We talking two entirely different things here. It makes no sense that they use the same exact rules. Similar ones yes, exact same, no.