Does anyone else think that the language system Pathfinder inherited from 3e is lame? For one skill point, you go from not knowing a language at all to being perfectly fluent, seemingly overnight. Maxing out Linguistics is just silly, because at about 12th level, you know more languages than there are in the game. Any dolt with nerfed Int can do it just as easily.
How fun is this? I'm not asking for hyper-realism, but come on. Anything to represent different levels of fluency would be better than this. For example: when you take a point of Linguistics, you distribute 2d6+Int mod fluency points among the languages you already know and up to one new language. All languages start at zero and reach perfect fluency at 25. Communicating successfully or understanding something overheard in that language is a check against DC 25 modified by your fluency score. At perfect fluency, checks are no longer necessary (any more than they are in your native tongue). If you miss a check with an odd number on the dice, you make a Wisdom check against DC 6 (up from DC 5 to account for power inflation in Pathfinder); failure indicates that you misinterpreted what you heard or said something different than what you meant to say.
With this mechanic, a 12th level character with average Intelligence who maxes out Linguistics will likely be perfectly fluent in four additional languages, with a smattering of a fifth. The system reflects the notion that opportunities to learn new languages are unpredictable for adventurers. Characters who want to focus on languages can take a feat to boost fluency or level dip as a Linguist. Some fluency may be granted at first level. The system makes fluency in unexpected tongues more noteworthy, because it is not achieved effortlessly. Knowing a language ought to be impressive.
Otherworldy tongues like Celestial and Infernal could have a DC of 30 rather than 25.
Well, that's somewhat complex and it's a completely new and involved mechanic. Perhaps a simpler fix would be to break up speech and literacy and say that two ranks in Linguistics allows you to speak and read a language, rather than just one rank doing both.
How about this:
Speak an Unknown Language
If you don't know a language, you have to roll a Linguistics check to see if you can get your meaning across, or understand what was conveyed.
DC 10 Pidgin ("Food", "Follow", etc)
DC 15 Simple ("Where is the bathroom, please?")
DC 20 Complex ("We need to fortify those buttresses or that whole section of the wall will collapse and let our enemies in!")
Becoming Fluent in a Language
Roll a complex skill check (see: Unearthed Arcana). Roll a DC 20 check once per day. Succeed in three DC 20 checks in a row within one week, and you become fluent.
You may only have as many new languages as you have ranks in Linguistics (not including your starting languages from race and Int bonus).
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Simple DCs to remember, as easy a complex skill check as you can make it while keeping it "somewhat realistic", and keeping the same limit as before (backward compatibility).
This also makes a person with lots of ranks in Linguistics a perfectly functional polyglot. In my personal experience, knowing more languages makes learning new languages easier... so having a higher cap in languages known (higher ranks) makes it easier to learn the new languages.
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How about this:
Speak an Unknown Language
If you don't know a language, you have to roll a Linguistics check to see if you can get your meaning across, or understand what was conveyed.DC 10 Pidgin ("Food", "Follow", etc)
DC 15 Simple ("Where is the bathroom, please?")
DC 20 Complex ("We need to fortify those buttresses or that whole section of the wall will collapse and let our enemies in!")Becoming Fluent in a Language
Roll a complex skill check (see: Unearthed Arcana). Roll a DC 20 check once per day. Succeed in three DC 20 checks in a row within one week, and you become fluent.
You may only have as many new languages as you have ranks in Linguistics (not including your starting languages from race and Int bonus)..
Simple DCs to remember, as easy a complex skill check as you can make it while keeping it "somewhat realistic", and keeping the same limit as before (backward compatibility).
This also makes a person with lots of ranks in Linguistics a perfectly functional polyglot. In my personal experience, knowing more languages makes learning new languages easier... so having a higher cap in languages known (higher ranks) makes it easier to learn the new languages.
Can we bump the DCs to 15, 20, 25?
I like the Linguistics skill as it is in Beta. Definitely not very realistic, but it gets the "sword and sorcery" feeling (a la Conan) where heroes and scoundrels tended to pick up languages fast.
A character without interest in picking languages can just buy a couple ranks for "background appropriate" tongues. Her chances of decyphering scripts and such will not be especially good. On the other hand, the present rules may Rogues, Bards and Pathfinders rock as a walking stockhouse of language lore. A kind of archetypal character in fantasy stories/movies/tv which is a pain (and a loser) to produce with more traditional point(s) per language known systems.
Of course, with DMs being fiends, it is always possible to have secret rolls made when such a character is using a recently-learned language in a crucial situation, for possible misunderstandings. I make my PCs record their languages in order of acquisition, so I know when that bard is still "green" in Infernal and I may impose a "risk roll" without complicating the character creation mechanic.
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I would much prefer a system where characters learn new languages by making a check. That would be more realistic, easier for a DM to keep track of, and generally just better. This would allow characters to learn languages as they become appropriate, rather than because they think they will be interacting with group x in the near future. Anything to eliminate metagame thinking is a good thing in my book. Please, change Linguistics!
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I would rather that it just go back to 3.5s version where you spend two skill ranks and learn a new language and that doesn't go into linguistics.
But I do like those DCs ideas for communicating with someone whos language you don't speak. Then again it could be an opposed check, a linguistics opposed by sense motive or something, I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
I would much prefer a system where characters learn new languages by making a check. That would be more realistic, easier for a DM to keep track of, and generally just better. This would allow characters to learn languages as they become appropriate, rather than because they think they will be interacting with group x in the near future. Anything to eliminate metagame thinking is a good thing in my book. Please, change Linguistics!
But this still has the same problem of going from not knowing a language at all to perfect literacy, with no shades in between. It role plays like cold soup.
I like the idea proposed earlier about DC 15 (pidgin), DC 20 (simple), DC 25 (complex) and I think it fits really well with some kind of fluency mechanic.
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I like the Linguistics skill as it is in Beta. Definitely not very realistic, but it gets the "sword and sorcery" feeling (a la Conan) where heroes and scoundrels tended to pick up languages fast.A character without interest in picking languages can just buy a couple ranks for "background appropriate" tongues. Her chances of decyphering scripts and such will not be especially good. On the other hand, the present rules may Rogues, Bards and Pathfinders rock as a walking stockhouse of language lore. A kind of archetypal character in fantasy stories/movies/tv which is a pain (and a loser) to produce with more traditional point(s) per language known systems.
Of course, with DMs being fiends, it is always possible to have secret rolls made when such a character is using a recently-learned language in a crucial situation, for possible misunderstandings. I make my PCs record their languages in order of acquisition, so I know when that bard is still "green" in Infernal and I may impose a "risk roll" without complicating the character creation mechanic.
i agree
its swords & sorcery game, if the idea is to travell all over the world and interact in it, an easy mechanic like the actual linguistic skill is good enougits not an horror game to have characters isolated all the time
still not everyone have the skill points to dedicate to this skill... so i doubt it is really a trouble
in our game my cleric is an honorable woman, so when the goblin heroe taunts her into a duel to death she would go for it... but my cleric is unable to understand the damn goblin... the only one who understand him is her husband the wizard... whose first action is to move between her and the goblin and talk back to the goblin in goblin "forget it" and when asked by her what did the goblin said (she heard the nickname the goblins use for her in the phrase) he only said "a threat, nothing important, we will deal with him"
so i don't find an issue with linguistics, not everybody wants to put skill points in it
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Get rid of Linguistics, roll Forgery into Craft and grant extra languages based upon Knowledge fields. One extra language per different type of Knowledge skill, with Knowledge:Local purchasable per region. Example of a well educated and well traveled wizard,
Knowledge:Religion - 4 ranks. Extra language, Celestial.
Knowledge:History - 5 ranks. Extra language, Thassilonian.
Knowlege:Arcane - 9 ranks. Extra langugage, Dragon.
Knowledge:Local:Lower Varisia - 2 ranks. Extra language, Varisian.
Knowlege:Local: Storval Plateau - 2 ranks. Extra lanuage, Shoanti.
Knowlege:Nature - 5 ranks. Extra language, Elven.
There's a lot of wiggle room here. Many Languages could fall under a group of Knowledges. Elven for example could be History, Arcane, Local, Nobliity, whatever.
Attaching extra languages to being scholarly or well traveled makes a lot more sense than making all linguists experienced criminals.
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Get rid of Linguistics, roll Forgery into Craft and grant extra languages based upon Knowledge fields. One extra language per different type of Knowledge skill, with Knowledge:Local purchasable per region. Example of a well educated and well traveled wizard,
wizards have 2 skill points per level and there are other important skills he might need to survive...
that is not a well traveled wizard... but a well papmpered wizard with lots of time and never leaving Absalom
again i hope they just leave Linguistics as it is...
its a Swords & Sorcery game... not horror based where not knowing the language is part of literary resource to provide for horror... isolation
ok nor is also a US Movie form last century where everyone speak english... including ancient romans and aliens
And in an American accent too! (The unashamedly British accented Fable voice-acting sounds weird to me because I've played so many American games. The kicker there is that I too am British :P)
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I'm not following you Montlave. A Wizard with a decent intelligence bonus is going to speak 2 to 4 languages before they spend a single skill point. Add the predictable Knowledge:Arcane and she'd have five languages. It's not exactly an isolationist build.
As for being pampered, if knowledge skills really strike you as useless for a wizard (a common sentiment maybe), then there's something deeply wonky with this aspect of the game.
Keeping Linguistics as is means a competent mid-level forger will automatically come with oodles of languages. Need a mysterious text translated? Skip the Wizards School (their libraries are just for show. They got better stuff to spend their points on). Head to the Thieves Guild's Hall of Languages! ;)
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I'm not following you Montlave. A Wizard with a decent intelligence bonus is going to speak 2 to 4 languages before they spend a single skill point. Add the predictable Knowledge:Arcane and she'd have five languages. It's not exactly an isolationist build.
As for being pampered, if knowledge skills really strike you as useless for a wizard (a common sentiment maybe), then there's something deeply wonky with this aspect of the game.
Keeping Linguistics as is means a competent mid-level forger will automatically come with oodles of languages. Need a mysterious text translated? Skip the Wizards School (their libraries are just for show. They got better stuff to spend their points on). Head to the Thieves Guild's Hall of Languages! ;)
i agree that forgery should be taken out of linguistics and be used as a rule for a myriad other skills
but i find that the only character that can have lots of languages in your idea would be the bard... i find him pampered because i don't see the wizard surviving in knowledge alone
he needs a bit of spellcraft and other skills... knowledge is pretty useful, but without the extra proper skills.. even
now... why would a "well traveled wizard know more languages" than a rogue that has traveled to every port in the inner sea? orthe barbarian mercenary that has worked in a dozen contries for coin? why should he know more languages than the misionary cleric that has gone to half the world spreading the faith of his god?
and msot of them wont have as much knowledge from the region they visit, maybe a bit of local... but no more
and i don't see why Knowledge: nature would give elven... they are more magical in natural than natural... sylvan that is another matter
And in an American accent too! (The unashamedly British accented Fable voice-acting sounds weird to me because I've played so many American games. The kicker there is that I too am British :P)
actually i prefer british by a long shot than bloody american...
i am mexican by the way... i just found english to my taste (in contrast to 'american' :P)
but i have to play fable in spanish... i can understand every dialogue in english... but the background ones sometimes are so low in volume that i and told at the same time that i can grasp them...
also i want to know what the damned gargoyles cry to me.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I've always felt that learning languages in D&D was far too easy and was kept that way for the sake of playability.
Still, I think that when you put a new rank in linguistics, you should be able to make two linguistics checks to learn a language (or two languages if you succeed on both checks). If you fail your checks, you cannot attempt to learn that language again until you put a new rank in the language. The DC for the checks should be kept reasonable -- DC 15 or DC 20 perhaps.
A more complicated system could be devised where the non-humanoid languages or languages originating on other planes have higher checks but I'm not sure it is worth the bother.
This method would keep things uncomplicated during play, but wouldn't give you the ridiculously easy "invest a rank, learn a language" situation that you have now.
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I've always felt that learning languages in D&D was far too easy and was kept that way for the sake of playability.
Still, I think that when you put a new rank in linguistics, you should be able to make two linguistics checks to learn a language (or two languages if you succeed on both checks). If you fail your checks, you cannot attempt to learn that language again until you put a new rank in the language. The DC for the checks should be kept reasonable -- DC 15 perhaps.
A more complicated system could be devised where the non-humanoid languages or languages originating on other planes have higher checks but I'm not sure it is worth the bother.
i can go with this rule :)
Languages aren't important enough to the game to justify mechanics any more complicated than what they already have.
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I'm a big fan of linguistic realism, but I've never found more than a handful of people who care enough about to make it worth developing a realistic system.
A realistic system would involve each language as a distinct skill. You would add points and have different fluencies in each language. You'd need to hit different DCs for different tasks - low for getting directions in the marketplace, high to reading academic texts.
Or a realistic system would make each langusge beyond your starting languages a feat. You only gain new ones by adding a new language feat or increasing you Intelligence. Linguistics would allow you to attempt to figure out what someone is saying or how to get them to understand what you're saying (kinda' like Decipher Script but in both directions and for both oral and written communication), but wouldn't actually give you the ability to claim fluency in a language. Again, you'd need make a check every time you tried (rather than just automatically being able to do it) and you'd need to hit different DCs for different tasks - low for getting directions in the marketplace, high to reading academic texts.
But few people care about languages this much. Most just want to be able to understand what the goblins are saying. That's fine. And in that case, 1 point per language is fine. Simple and to the point.
Languages aren't important enough to the game to justify mechanics any more complicated than what they already have.
That's what the existing mechanic assumes, so of course you're right about what's important as far as the rules are concerned. The existing rules are adequate if languages have little importance in your campaign world.
I'm a big fan of linguistic realism, but I've never found more than a handful of people who care enough about to make it worth developing a realistic system.
Realism isn't my primary concern. What bothers me is that the existing rules limit interesting story possibilities.
Is anyone complaining about the existing rule that if you fail a decipher script check, you must succeed at a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid drawing a false conclusion? Why isn't that too complicated? The designer obviously thought that introduced some fun and interesting game possibilities, so why shouldn't the same be true for spoken language?
A realistic system would involve each language as a distinct skill.
Given that a single skill point currently buys you perfect fluency, this "realism" would be prohibitively expensive by comparison. I was looking for something in between, so you still get a reasonble amount of fluency for your skill point.
Or a realistic system would make each langusge beyond your starting languages a feat.
Like other suggestions in this thread, that has the same problem of suddenly going from not knowing a language at all to perfect fluency.
But few people care about languages this much. Most just want to be able to understand what the goblins are saying.
And that's exactly where the current system offers no play at all. What if you understand only part of what the goblins are saying? What if you and your companion both think the goblins said something different? Who will the party believe? But the existing rules are all or nothing and don't allow for this kind of story tension.
That's fine. And in that case, 1 point per language is fine. Simple and to the point.
... if the point is that few people should care about languages.
Really, a language system that is not going to be an embarrassment needs to avoid absurdity at the minimum, and to be interesting it should provide a way to check for the possibility of misunderstanding and miscommunication. I proposed fluency points to demonstrate how simple such a mechanic could be. I don't think 2d6+Int per skill point distributed as you like is all that complicated. Checks modified by fluency against DC 15 (simple), DC 25 (complex), or DC 30 (otherworldly) seem like pretty standard d20 fare.
Finally, I don't see why any skill should be designed with the assumption that no one would ever want to max it out. As it is, there's no reason to continue beyond 12th level, because you've run out of languages.
Of course, with DMs being fiends, it is always possible to have secret rolls made when such a character is using a recently-learned language in a crucial situation, for possible misunderstandings. I make my PCs record their languages in order of acquisition, so I know when that bard is still "green" in Infernal and I may impose a "risk roll" without complicating the character creation mechanic.
This is an interesting idea that might work. Actually the description of Linguistics in Pathfinder says that the decipher script roll is secret, so that's not considered fiendish, it's the norm. I prefer to have all rolls out in the open, however, so no one wonders if the DM is fudging things. For "secret" rolls you could have cards that randomly assign every number on the d20 to some other number, then leave the dice on top of that card so players can check the result later. I don't like DM's fudging the dice.
If you want it a bit more expensive:
1 Point to be able to speak / understand the language
1 Point to be able to read / write the language
I you are able to speak the language: 1 Point to speak accent-free.
Thanks for the suggestion. That works out to roughly the same cost for perfect fluency as my proposal. However, each aspect of fluency is all or nothing, so there isn't any notion of checks to determine success or failure related to your skill.