Skill Focus has always been something that has confused me in one aspect. If your character spends all this time learning a skill, to the point where he gets +3 in it, why isn't it a class skill after all that? I know Forgotten Realms had something similar to Skill Focus, I believe it was called EDUCATED. It gave a +1 or +2 and made the skill a class skill.
I would like to see Skill Focus change to make the choosen skill a class skill. The bonus it gives would drop to a +1 or no bonus at all being as making something a "class skill gives you +3 bonus" now.
[FEAT] SKILL FOCUS - +1 skill bonus to a chosen skill and the chosen skill becomes a class skill for that character.
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If your character spends all this time learning a skill, to the point where he gets +3 in it, why isn't it a class skill after all that?
[FEAT] SKILL FOCUS - +1 skill bonus to a chosen skill and the chosen skill becomes a class skill for that character.
The +3 is already the same thing as it being a class skill. If you gave +1 AND made it a class skill, you'd effectively be giving +4. Other than that +3, there is no advantage to it being a class skill. The +3 sticks around forever, even if you multiclass out to a class that doesn't have that skill as a class skill anymore.
[This discussion went around in the Alphas and made sense until Jason introduced the new way of dealing with class and cross-class skills.]
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To be clear, you only get the +3 bonus from class skills if the skill actually has ranks in it. If you take Skill Focus (Stealth) as a Rogue, but your stealth has ZERO ranks in it, you would not receive the +3 class skill bonus. Now if you put 1 rank in it, then you would get the +3, but that is normal.
Suffice it to say, Skill Focus has no bearing on receiving or not receiving that bonus. It's just a misc. bonus. Just like getting a +2 racial bonus to Perception would not give you the class skill +3 bonus if it was a class skill.
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I think the point here is that a character who does not have the class skill, but takes the feat Skill Focus the feat should make it a class skill. Make it a +2 and Class Skill. Those characters who have it as a class skill will get an effect (especially if the +2 stacks with the +2/+2 feats) so you won't hurt them, but the poor fighter who wants to focus in Knowledge Arcana (work with me here you see the point) can still get a real effect from the feat.
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I think the point here is that a character who does not have the class skill, but takes the feat Skill Focus the feat should make it a class skill. Make it a +2 and Class Skill. Those characters who have it as a class skill will get an effect (especially if the +2 stacks with the +2/+2 feats) so you won't hurt them, but the poor fighter who wants to focus in Knowledge Arcana (work with me here you see the point) can still get a real effect from the feat.
with the feat they already get +3, which is the same benefit as having it as class skill, there is no other benefit for class skills, so no extra need to say it is
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I prefer the Beta version, *but* I think it would be a logical "tweak" if you could choose Skill Focus only for a class skill.
please no
while that will give a character +6 to their skills (i use it like Adaptability with my half elven cleric), that means that you are forced to specialize only in your class skillspeople should be able to have learned or have a natural ability with skills outside their profession
i sudied computer systems, and i believe i will have a bit of a skill focus already either in story... and definitively in RPG games :P
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One of my GMs house-ruled that skill focus gave you +3 in a skill and made the skill a class skill. I think it's a great house rule. If you are truly concerned it's a problem, make it only give a +2 bonus. With all the +2/+2 feats out there, that's sure to be balanced.
For the cost of a feat and skill point, a fighter could have 7+ability mod (or 6 if you lower the bonus from the feat) in what was not originally a class skill. I hardly think that gamebreaking or unbalancing.
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I dont think that feat should only be allowed to take with a class skill. That would favor some classes over others - bard and rogue, i'm looking at you (since they have so many more skills that ARE class skills).
Furthermore, being able to apply it only to cross-class skill (as the OP suggest) thus giving the "class skill" bonus of +3 is equally impractical.
What I DO have a problem with, is any skill, feat, ability that gives large (or relatively large) dividends of payout at once. The rules and mechanics are chock-full of the feats and abilities that give a large amount of benefit at once - meaning the relative power level of someone - something goes up with a single advancement of one level.
In other words, giving a +3 at 1 rank, and +3 at 10 ranks means that a persons Use Magic Device, or Stealth, or Perception or whatever goes up 4 points at least once he hits that 10 rank point.
What I would like to see throughout ALL the mechanics is a more gradual curving increase instead of a single level spike of power increase.
What I propose is:
SKILL FOCUS: +2, and +1 for every 5 ranks in a skill.
This would encourage continued attention spent to that skill, instead of a min/maxing "I've got my 10 ranks I never need to put another point in it - I've maxed out my feat/skill combo."
Furthermore it's a slight gradual increase that pays dividends for the entire career of the character - even at 20th level (should he allocate points to that skill all the way to that point).
This should also be true for Self-Sufficient, Alertness, Deft Hands, Athletic etc:
+1 to each skill, and +1 per 5 ranks spent.
Robert
please no
while that will give a character +6 to their skills (i use it like Adaptability with my half elven cleric), that means that you are forced to specialize only in your class skillspeople should be able to have learned or have a natural ability with skills outside their profession
i sudied computer systems, and i believe i will have a bit of a skill focus already either in story... and definitively in RPG games :P
I am a professional writer, but I learn kung fu, can I have a bonus feat as a natural ability ?
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I am a professional writer, but I learn kung fu, can I have a bonus feat as a natural ability ?
please no
while that will give a character +6 to their skills (i use it like Adaptability with my half elven cleric), that means that you are forced to specialize only in your class skillspeople should be able to have learned or have a natural ability with skills outside their profession
i sudied computer systems, and i believe i will have a bit of a skill focus already either in story... and definitively in RPG games :P
no
it count as a feat... Improved unarmed attack i do recall :Palso i believe you wille arn some discipline giving you knowledge: Martial Arts, Knowledge: Ancient History
also depending the type of kung fu you would have learned different feats...
do i need to continue?
of courseyou don't get bonus feats for being a profesional writer... you have already a myriad skills for that :P
you know kunf fu or youpractice it as a discpline? if its the second then you just cross-classed schoolar/martial artist and have Profession (writer)
real life vs gaming its not always realism i grant it...
still... if you pass the next sixth months researching from a topic then you get some skill focus about it.. you are not an expert... an expert is someone who need to roll 5 or less and still gets solved something in little or no time :P
I think the point here is that a character who does not have the class skill, but takes the feat Skill Focus the feat should make it a class skill.
Yes, that was the point.
Feats are more powerful than Skills, when you take a Feat that says you "EFFECTIVELY" have 3 Ranks worth of training in a Skill...
At the same time I think 'Montalve' has a valid point. Those who actually have the Skill as a Class-Skill can then have the 'UBER' +6 (Skill Focus & Class Skill) if they feel the need to be what I'm thinking might be somewhat excessive.
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What I DO have a problem with, is any skill, feat, ability that gives large (or relatively large) dividends of payout at once. The rules and mechanics are chock-full of the feats and abilities that give a large amount of benefit at once - meaning the relative power level of someone - something goes up with a single advancement of one level.
In other words, giving a +3 at 1 rank, and +3 at 10 ranks means that a persons Use Magic Device, or Stealth, or Perception or whatever goes up 4 points at least once he hits that 10 rank point.
What I would like to see throughout ALL the mechanics is a more gradual curving increase instead of a single level spike of power increase.
What I propose is:
SKILL FOCUS: +2, and +1 for every 5 ranks in a skill.
This would encourage continued attention spent to that skill, instead of a min/maxing "I've got my 10 ranks I never need to put another point in it - I've maxed out my feat/skill combo."
Furthermore it's a slight gradual increase that pays dividends for the entire career of the character - even at 20th level (should he allocate points to that skill all the way to that point).
This should also be true for Self-Sufficient, Alertness, Deft Hands, Athletic etc:
+1 to each skill, and +1 per 5 ranks spent.
Robert
Hmmm... Robert, that's actually a very good idea! It would indeed encourage players to really invest in a skill in the long run, and would scale better than it does now. :)