During our playtesting, Acrobatics has gained prominence as a skill beyond what I believe it should be.
The reason for this is that Acrobatics gives players the functionality of three skills from 3.5: Balance, Tumble and Jump. The new skill system aside, this means that players are getting a lot more "bang for their buck" than the other reworked skills. This is enhanced by the fact that in adventure-heavy and combat-heavy games these are incredibly useful skills. Tumbling is crucial to moving in combat, jumping and balancing let you ignore terrain (albeit with AC penalites), and all three help navigate the treacherous dungeons clever DMs invent.
It's especially helpful for monks, barbarians and rangers, all of whom have so many skill points they don't need all those abilities rolled into one skill.It has been verging on a super-skill.
We've been playtesting a house rule that works well: take jump out of Acrobatics and combine it with Climb to create "Athletics" (apologies for the recycled name). Now, the quick and agile characters can still move and balance around, but can't just as easily launch into the air. Acrobatics remains a viable skill.
Athletics becomes the favorite of fighters and melee clerics who, with their heavy armor, never had a need to boost dex. Even with armor check penalties, they're rather mobile characters who don't have to choose between coming to a complete stop when presented with a wall and spending their precious skill points on something that solely lets you climb.
This also fits well with flavor, because agile or not you need muscles like treetrunks to jump with the gear that adventurers usually carry.
I had to think about this for a moment. Climbing is actually a skill, rather than a developed physical ability like jumping. And gymnists are really good jumpers.
But, both effective climbing and jumping are all about strength in the legs, so it makes little sense to pair jumping with two dexterous abilities. Acrobatics as it stands now is too powerful. And it seems to me that anyone who wanted their character to be extremely acrobatic would feel it only right that their acrobatic character was good at climbing.
So after consideration, I support this suggestion. Have two skills: Athletics (Str) and Tumbling (Dex).
I'm happy with Climb and Swim as Athletics. They might not be the most perfect fit, but they're still two limited skills with roughly the same application (Str-based mobility skills). Combining them would help out the outdoors classes, as well as the much-maligned fighter.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Climb and Swim shouldn't be combined. If I want to play a character who's spent his youth climbing cliffs in a desert, his climbing ability shouldn't allow him to swim like a fish the first time he ever encounters a body of water deep enough to swim in.
Climb and Jump I suppose I could understand, if only because someone who climbs will have the leg strength necessary to jump, and vice versa.
And if I want to play a highwire artist, acrobatics shouldn't allow him to tumble through the window.
nothing says you as a player have to use the full extent of the skill for your character.
I thought about suggesting combining Swim and Climb as well, but I felt that wouldn't solve the Acrobatics being overpowered problem. I'd also rather not run the risk of the designers locking this thread because we're trying to rework the skill systems.
Skills have always been a broad generalization of smaller abilities and talents. It's a nice way to encompass the nearly infinite actions players may take. This is the flavor reason I see combining jumping and climbing, which both generally rely on strength.
The real reason I advocate the change is game balance. Acrobatics is "The" skill to have for all the martial classes. I'd like to see Fighters have a class-skill for movement based on Strength that's a little broader that just climb. That way they don't have to worry about their Dexterity being high enough to jump a pit or barricade with an armor check penalty.
Most martial characters will still take Acrobatics, but it won't be the end-all be-all of movement skills, with Climb and Swim being after-thoughts to help fill a theme.
I agree with Brother Willi's sentiment about "skill balance".
Pretty much all of the skill consolidation has massively benefitted those classes (Rogue, Ranger) that had the largest # of skill points/ class skills in the first place.
Consolidating Climb & Jump gives the low skill point Fighter a viable way to increase their physical mobility in those situations where they apply, and return Jump to being a STR skill, which I think they'res too few of, otherwise. Re: Swimming, I would be OK with including it in "Athletics" with Climb & Jump, for "balance" reasons...
If skill consolidation is to be part of Pathfinder, I don't see why it shouldn't work out so that dumb-brute Fighter types shouldn't be able to excel in all of 3.5's STR-skills, and hopefully have a skill rank left for whatever else they'd like.
Climb and Swim shouldn't be combined. If I want to play a character who's spent his youth climbing cliffs in a desert, his climbing ability shouldn't allow him to swim like a fish the first time he ever encounters a body of water deep enough to swim in.
Climb and Jump I suppose I could understand, if only because someone who climbs will have the leg strength necessary to jump, and vice versa.
I completely agree. I am opposed to 'consolidating' modes of movement, such as Climbing and Swimming into one skill. It makes zero sense to do so. Modes of movement are fundamental skills that can be key to making archetypes and should therefore remain separate. I would prefer that even Jump be separated out of Acrobatics and not be consolidated with Climb, though retaining Jump as part of Acrobatics is acceptable for simplification purposes. Combining it with Climb would be much more of a stretch, though I might swallow it, but there is no way there is going to be combining these with Swim, at least not in my game!
|
|
Acrobatics is too useful in too many situations.
I'd suggest Acrobatics as Balance + Tumble (Dex) and Athletics as Jump + Climb (Str)
Keep Swim out because it is a form of movement. Consolidating Jump and Climb helps fighters and limits rogues just a bit, which is okay 'cause rogues have got A LOT of skill points right now. And neither Jump nor Climb gets used all that often by itself.
I would actually like to see some sort of a Run benefit added to Jump and Climb in Athletics. It goes with the track and field theme plus it would help vary up movement speeds. Right now everyone in the world walks/runs at the same speed! You'd want tiers so you don't have to deal with crazy movements like 34'. Maybe something like +5' for every 10 rank in Athletics, which would add +20' when running (or +25' when running with the Run feat).
|
Complaining about linking three different athletic skills together is as silly as complaining about linking the ability to pick locks with the ability to defuse glyphs of warding. First, it's a playability issue. Second, it's realistic enough. I know plenty of people who are simply generally athletic, whose musculature and coordination quickly adapt to whatever activity is asked of them.
-- Jeff
It's pretty obvious that skill consolidation is happening. So the issue is the "balance" in how it is applied.
Providing a reasonable way for dumb-brute Fighters to translate their physical strengths into appropriate skills, while maybe even leaving them some ranks to spend on other aspects of their character, seems like a laudable goal of skill consolidation. Jason can take care of the specifics.
I would actually like to see some sort of a Run benefit added to Jump and Climb in Athletics. It goes with the track and field theme plus it would help vary up movement speeds. Right now everyone in the world walks/runs at the same speed! You'd want tiers so you don't have to deal with crazy movements like 34'. Maybe something like +5' for every 10 rank in Athletics, which would add +20' when running (or +25' when running with the Run feat).
I have been tinkering with running rules for a long time and even considered adding a Run skill in the past. In the end, though, a Run skill would break compatibility in movement, so I avoided implementing that idea, but it did lead me to develop running rules that I use for races, chases and escapes. I have even posted them as a suggestion in one of the Alpha forums if I remember correctly.
I am in agreement with Epic Meepo. But even ignoring any notion of realism or suspension of disbelief, combining all of the movement modes into an Athletics skill is simply bad design. It would essentially 'consolidate' all Strength skills into one. Then we might as well consolidate all Dex, Int, Wis and Cha skills into one per ability and just call the the ability skills and be done with it. I prefer a greater degree of granularity than that. (Note: Constitution too - but with the removal of Concentration, Constitution now has no skills associated with it - I would like to see Endurance, but there is no real chance of that.)
I am in agreement with Epic Meepo. But even ignoring any notion of realism or suspension of disbelief, combining all of the movement modes into an Athletics skill is simply bad design. It would essentially 'consolidate' all Strength skills into one. Then we might as well consolidate all Dex, Int, Wis and Cha skills into one per ability and just call the the ability skills and be done with it. I prefer a greater degree of granularity than that. (Note: Constitution too - but with the removal of Concentration, Constitution now has no skills associated with it - I would like to see Endurance, but there is no real chance of that.)
We're not advocating blanket consolidation. Indeed, we're advocating distinguishing the various skills.
The problem is right now, Acrobatics is overly-inclusive: It contains tumbling, balancing and jumping. Other skills seem to have been left out of the general consolidation: Climbing and Swimming are among them.
The consolidation is a good thing. It allows skillful classes (Bards, Rogues, Rangers) to be dynamic and prepared, benefits the low skill point classes, and removes a lot of nagging choices one had to made. I, for one, am very glad not to have to roll Listen and Spot simultaneously constantly (and not to have to sink double the skill points into them).
Moving jumping in with climbing balances Acrobatics, gives Fighters some benefit from the general consolidation, and gives high-strength characters a few more options.
I say leave Swim on it's own. Realistically, you have to learn how to swim. Balance wise, it has it's own weight mechanic and represents a very different mode of movement from climbing or jumping. It's a specialized skill that can be taken if it's necessary to a game, and ignored if it's not.
How does a triton have a +9 bonus to climb checks (not counting his conditional racial bonus to Swim checks)? A guy who's lived his entire life on the Elemental Plane of Water shouldn't be good at climbing just because he's trained his whole life in swimming.
This isn't just about lumping two unrelated abilities together; it's about lumping together two abilities that might not even coexist in certain environments! A guy who trains to pick locks can at least imagine what it is like to erase a rune. A triton swimmer who's never left the Elemental Plane of Water might not even understand the concept of climbing.
How is this any different than racial bonuses to specific modes of Perception (Vision, Hearing, Scent)?
Instead of a racial bonus to "Athletics" including Climb & Swim, a Triton would just get a racial bonus to SWIM.Likewise, creatures can have a racial bonus to JUMP but not ALL Acrobatics checks.
If Fighters' 2 Skill Ranks isn't changing (and that's written in stone by Jason),
Skill Consolidation in their favor is sort of a necessity.
|
|
I thought about suggesting combining Swim and Climb as well, but I felt that wouldn't solve the Acrobatics being overpowered problem. I'd also rather not run the risk of the designers locking this thread because we're trying to rework the skill systems.
Skills have always been a broad generalization of smaller abilities and talents. It's a nice way to encompass the nearly infinite actions players may take. This is the flavor reason I see combining jumping and climbing, which both generally rely on strength.
The real reason I advocate the change is game balance. Acrobatics is "The" skill to have for all the martial classes. I'd like to see Fighters have a class-skill for movement based on Strength that's a little broader that just climb. That way they don't have to worry about their Dexterity being high enough to jump a pit or barricade with an armor check penalty.
Most martial characters will still take Acrobatics, but it won't be the end-all be-all of movement skills, with Climb and Swim being after-thoughts to help fill a theme.
Without a doubt; i've been vocal since the alpha releases that Jump should be discluded from Acrobatics.
I have no problem with it being a seperate skill, and I have no problem with it being lumped with Climb for Athletics (which benefits a fighter who has only 2 skill points).
I don't think the barbarian needs tumble and balance - so currently to ensure he has Jump, he get access to the former two as well.
So I definitely would like to see Jump removed from Acrobatics, and would be happy either a solo skill, or Athletics with Climb (0nly).
Combining Swim w/ Climb isn't good design, its based on two seperate modes of movement, and using this logic, we would need to throw Fly in there as well. Not a practical idea overall.
Please make Jump seperate from Acrobatics.
Robert
I like Jump in Acrobatics and a combined Climb/Swim for Athletics, if only because it's simple, effective and models the Elder Scrolls approach, where Acrobatics allows you to jump higher and land more safely, whereas Athletics allows you to run/climb/swim faster and for longer.
I'm all for taking Jump out of Acrobatics & combining it with Climb in Athletics. Not sure about Swim; I can take or leave its placement right now.
Combining Acrobatics (and even more so, Perception) have put us in a situation where fairly extreme measures are needed to restore some semblance of sanity to the skills system. As it is, Perception and Craft (painting) have the exact same cost -- 1 skill point per rank. That makes no sense at all -- one is used constantly, to life or death in-game effect, and the other has no mechanical use at all.
So we need a fix. For example, combine all the Craft (fine arts) into one skill, and roll Forgery into it as well, and now it can stand alongside Acrobatics as a viable choice.
So, yes, Climb + Swim is totally, irredeemably unrealistic. But then again, so is D&D. And it may be necessary. If we have a blanket Perception super-skill (equally unrealistic) and a combined Acrobatics skill, then game balance requires that Climb and Swim get some sort of bump -- either by blatantly combining them, or by expanding the usage of each so that they're worth putting skill points into.
As I stated above, I'm in favor of Brother Willi's proposal to remove jumping from Acrobatics and combine it with Climb.
I'm not in favor of adding Swim, though. Although it is another strength-based athelitc skill, there's a good mechanical reason why not.
There are three skills that correlate directly to a movement type: Climb, Fly, and Swim. Each of these types of movement requires checks to pull certain things off--combat while moving in that way, stunts, difficult situation, etc. Like the example of Tritons above, even creatures that posses a natural movement speed in one of these must still take ranks in the related skill to make such checks (although they probably also recieve a racial bonus). Combining Swim and Climb would combine two of the three movement types, and is not desirable.
Adding jump to climb seems pretty harmless, though. Many to most creatures that are good climbers are also strong jumpers anyway. In the cases that aren't, it's just one of those times where you sacrifice a little reality for a smoother game.