Director of Games
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Welcome to the sixth stage of the playtest for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. We have now wrapped up the first four stages of the playtest, which took a look at the Ability Scores, Races, and all of the base classes. Moving on, we are now going to look at a part of the rules that are integral to characters: skills and feats. While it is ok to talk about these features as they relate to classes and other mechanics, the focus here should be on the skills and feats themselves. As a general note, if the rules would not be placed in this chapter, then it should probably wait (so discussing Craft Wondrous Item is perfectly relevant here, but specific magic items is not). When discussing Skills and Feats, start your thread title out with the name of the skill or feat, followed by the issue you want to discuss. For example, if you wanted to talk about the Spellcraft skill and how it relates to spellcasting, your thread subject might read: Spellcraft - Why is is used for spellcasting?
To get things started here, we need to take a look at a number of issues dealing with skills and feats. Here are some areas that need a good solid look at.
- Skills: Note that at this point, the skill system itself is not really up for debate. There might be some tweaking, but on the whole, the system is pretty solid. At the same time, Fly is in and Concentration is out. I have heard all of the arguments I need to on these fronts.
- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
- Skills: Perception is a bit too complicated. Thoughts on simplifying it?
- Feats: There are a number of new feats that were posted up on Monday (they will be reposted here shortly). Are they balanced? Do they address some of the Fighter's (and other martial classes) power shortage at high levels?
- Feats: Many of the new combat feats were reworked for the Beta. Some of them were mildly redundant with existing feats. Are these feats balanced? Which ones need a change to work better with the existing feat list?
- Feats: Are their any class specific feats that we are missing (such as adding a feat that gives sorcerers an extra spell)?
This is an area of the rules that can be quite contentious. To keep things clean, I would appreciate that you label your threads appropriately and keep things civil. Presenting entirely rebuilt skill systems is not very useful to us at this point, but presenting fixes to the rules we have is quite useful. Please keep that in mind, when you are posting. Finally, lets try not to stray all over the book in these discussions.
The class playtests were very productive and I am excited to see where this one leads us.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
- Skills: Perception is a bit too complicated. Thoughts on simplifying it?
On the first item, changing casting defensively or casting under pressure to a Will save is a great idea. However, it should scale (ie casting defensively should be a DC 15 Will save + your opponent's BAB).
I don't find the Perception skill too complicated now. However, I do assume unless my players state otherwise, they are taking 10 at any given moment with sight, sound, smell, etc.
I have always used will or fort saves instead of contraction. It has worked fine for us. Mental stuff is will physical stuff we default to fort.
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Any combination of these could be costs:
1) Casting time increases to 1 full round action instead of a standard action
2) You cannot take a 5' step that round
3) Your caster level is reduced by 1 (since you're not concentrating on the spell as much - this would make the option unavailable as a 1st level caster)
Not bad suggestions, but they don't address the 2 most outstanding problems with defensive casting:
1) The check is trivial after levels 3-5, and2) The entire defensive casting mechanic takes the opponent "out of the game."
I think the right solution is to throw out defensive casting altogether. If the caster wants to cast while threatened, make him take the AO. Unless the for is Large+ or carrying a reach weapon, a 5' step generally gets him out of threat area anyway. Take the Combat Casting feat and turn it into a +4 bonus to checks made while taking damage or distracted (instead of just a +4 to defensive casting checks). that would make that feat more useful anyway.
On the surface, I like the idea of a Will save, but defensive casting seems outside the scope of the Will save. I'm just not sure it fits. A Fort save might fit better.
-Skeld
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Jason,
Some of us were discussing the Shield Feats and came up with some queries/possible fixes.
I put forward that the Shield Feats (Shield Focus and Shield Mastery) need not necessarily have a Fighter Level Pre-requisite as the are some other classes that rely heavily on Shields as well (Paladins being the most relevant, but Clerics and other Fighter derivatives to a lesser degree).
I put forward that maybe instead of doing away with the Fighter Pre-requisite you could change it to include Fighter or Paladin, possibly with a higher Paladin level needed to take it than Fighter.
seekerofshadowlight then proposed that maybe the two base Shield Feats have no Pre-requisite and the two Greater Shield Feats have the Fighter Pre-requisite. This seems like it could be a workable change as well. This method could also open the Feats up to say a Buckler wielding Rogue, or a Klar wielding Shoanti Barbarian.
In a similar vein, maybe open the Critical Feats up to Rogues (with the same higher Level Requirement per the above regarding Paladins) as well as I know that Combat Rogues like to try for Criticals to help out their damage dealing potential in combination with Sneak Attack.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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An alternative might be to allow a paladin (only) to take fighter-only feats as a fighter of their level -3.
Yeah, but then that opens up all of the Fighter Feats to Paladins which detracts somewhat from the Fighter's Abilities. Making specific case allowances is much better than opening the door and letting everyone in for a look.
- Skills: Note that at this point, the skill system itself is not really up for debate. There might be some tweaking, but on the whole, the system is pretty solid. At the same time, Fly is in and Concentration is out. I have heard all of the arguments I need to on these fronts.
The skill system is not bad, but a partial reversion to 3.5E (not the skill list) and some tweaks would be desirable, I think: See Here
- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
Great idea - move it to the Will save or perhaps the Fort save.
- Skills: Perception is a bit too complicated. Thoughts on simplifying it?
I don't really think it's too complicated. It might, however, be too powerful/useful - Listen and Spot were already among the more powerful/useful skills in 3.5E, but now they are combined (along with Search) into one uber-skill. Conceptually this works, but power-wise it might be a bit over the top.
Perception is also slightly unclear for some uses and that may indeed lead to some complications. Suppose, for example, there is an rogue approaching a lone fighter in a stealthy manner. Does the fighter roll to see the rogue (that depends on distance, lighting conditions, cover and his skill check) or does the fighter roll to hear the rogue (that can depend on other things) or does he roll both separately, or does he roll once, but apply the different modifiers twice to get the result? Maybe you can say that it is the fighter rolls only one: either sight or hearing part of perception - depending on which one is the most likely to detect the rogue. This could work, but it would become a mess when the whole party is rolling, because different characters might have to roll for sight, or sound based detection... In many ways, it would actually be simpler in practice to have two skills - Sight and Hearing versus Hide and Sneak - that way it would be much clearer what happens and what needs to be rolled.
If you do want to keep Perception as one skill (and conceptually it does make sense and enables you to include all those other senses, which is neat), there may be a way to simplify this:
Introduce a concept called Observability or Detectability. In situations, when it it clear which sense applies, Detectability would not be an issue, but the concept would be useful for unclear situations. Detectability of a character or an object would be based on the sense with the lowest DC for detection at that particular time. The detecting characters would then roll only against this particular DC. The DC in question could be further decreased by the lack of stealth affecting other senses.
- Feats: There are a number of new feats that were posted up on Monday (they will be reposted here shortly). Are they balanced? Do they address some of the Fighter's (and other martial classes) power shortage at high...
Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to playtest them yet.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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- Skills: Note that at this point, the skill system itself is not really up for debate. There might be some tweaking, but on the whole, the system is pretty solid. At the same time, Fly is in and Concentration is out. I have heard all of the arguments I need to on these fronts.The skill system is not bad, but a partial reversion to 3.5E (not the skill list) and some tweaks would be desirable, I think: See Here
I find the new Skill System infinately easier than the old one. I can write a Character's Skills up in half the time it takes me to do it under 3.5. I'm a big fan of the PFRPG Beta Skill System.
Some minor tweaks might be in order to correct some particular Skills that people have dramas with, but the System itself is pretty Solid and easy to grasp for new players, much more so than the "half into Croos-Class and this is Cross Class for this Class you have, but not that Class you have, so you can have that up to that Rank, but you have to pay Double when using this Class but not that Class".
Some minor tweaks might be in order to correct some particular Skills that people have dramas with, but the System itself is pretty Solid and easy to grasp for new players, much more so than the "half into Croos-Class and this is Cross Class for this Class you have, but not that Class you have, so you can have that up to that Rank, but you have to pay Double when using this Class but not that Class".
And that is not the part where I am advocating for a reversion - I am all for keeping that part of the system. ;)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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And that is not the part where I am advocating for a reversion - I am all for keeping that part of the system. ;)
Some minor tweaks might be in order to correct some particular Skills that people have dramas with, but the System itself is pretty Solid and easy to grasp for new players, much more so than the "half into Croos-Class and this is Cross Class for this Class you have, but not that Class you have, so you can have that up to that Rank, but you have to pay Double when using this Class but not that Class".
Sorry I misunderstood. My Apologies.
- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
Moving much of the former concentration stuff to a save is a good idea IMO. Concentration as a rule is a 'skill' that players almost never actively used, it was a defensive skill. I kind of like the idea of using a Fortitude save instead of a Will save because it would preserve the use of constitution as the primary stat.
Using the Will saves also favors divine casters over arcane casters.
Personally I think perception is fine the way it is. Its fine that it is slightly more uber, because the added simplicity far out weighs any added problems it adds. My group feels the same way about acrobatics, yeah its a little better than some other skills but the streamlining is worth it.
I do have a question though, what does rope use fall under now ?
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Director of Games
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I do have a question though, what does rope use fall under now ?
If you are using rope to tie up a character, it is a function of the grapple rules. If you are using rope to climb up a surface, that is a function of the climb skill now. It was kinda silly to make two checks to climb up a wall, when really the rope should just give you a bonus.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
It has to be said that taking a Fort save over a Will save definitely favours the divine casters, as they all have good Fort saves.
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Director of Games
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It has to be said that taking a Fort save over a Will save definitely favours the divine casters, as they all have good Fort saves.
It should be noted that most casters have a good Will save progression... the only core exception being the Ranger (and Paladin, but I am considering changing that one).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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My only comment is on Perception. If you're going to merge Spot and Listen into one skill (which I support) then stop with the "applies to touch perception" or "smell perception only" or "sight perception only" junk. In most cases it's only the difference of a small +1 or +2. In the races, feel free to explain WHY they have a bonus to Perception (excellent sight) but just make it universal. I know, it might not make sense why it applies to hearing as well, but a lot of stuff doesn't make sense in the game and right now keeping track of FIVE senses within one skill is more trouble than its worth.
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It has to be said that taking a Fort save over a Will save definitely favours the divine casters, as they all have good Fort saves.It should be noted that most casters have a good Will save progression... the only core exception being the Ranger (and Paladin, but I am considering changing that one).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
yes
but still it would favor clericsand druids (and now paladins) a lot more than the other classeshaveyou seen our suggestion of using spellcaster level?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It has to be said that taking a Fort save over a Will save definitely favours the divine casters, as they all have good Fort saves.It should be noted that most casters have a good Will save progression... the only core exception being the Ranger (and Paladin, but I am considering changing that one).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
And psychic warrior (which while isn't in the PFRPG at this time, it IS in the SRD)
I lean towards the will save. Fortitude in this care would be dealing with the damage from being hit. Concentration works better :-P But a will save makes better sense in dealing with the pain/distraction of being hit.
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I lean towards the will save. Fortitude in this care would be dealing with the damage from being hit...
I'm not sure if that's what you actually meant but I would like to see:
Casting defensively and resisting motion: Will save.
Casting when enduring being damage: Fortitude save.
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- Skills: Perception is a bit too complicated. Thoughts on simplifying it?
I mostly like the new Perception (Wis) but wold like to see Search (Int) pulled back out. That way Perception would only be for passive "notice" type situations and Search would be for "looking for" situations. There's logic in that, plus it would make Perception less uber and give high Int, low Wis character a chance at finding things too.
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i prefer not
still its an skill of observation and detail, spot is not gut instinct but the capability of noticing small things, so goes with search
actually i don't think we have rolls for "gut insctint" that would be closer to "danger sense" from other games, and i think there are either a few feats or traits that does something similar (if not... well they should :P)
I lean towards the will save. Fortitude in this care would be dealing with the damage from being hit. Concentration works better :-P But a will save makes better sense in dealing with the pain/distraction of being hit.
I lean towards using getting rid of casting defensively and having a Fort save to prevent casting from being disrupted.
And please, if Concentration absolutely, positively has to go away, can you add a substitute skill for psionic players to use (not to mention the Kensai prestige class and various bits from the Tome of Battle)? I know that folks at Paizo don't seem that crazy about psionics (or the Tome of Battle), but there are a lot of fans out there. I would suggest adding Autohypnosis from the Psionic SRD, personally. Whatever it is, please add it to the monk class (so that the monk can qualify for the Psionic Fist/Fist of Zuoken prestige class...).
Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
Jason,
However the system ends up, can we expect to see to see the inclusion of defensively activating spell-like abilities? It was allowed under 3.5 as most spell-like abilities mimiced a spell or where listed as being equivalent to a spell of a specific level (this was especially true for creature abilities).|
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colour me agreeing with Mosaic.
Search - sperate skill, intelligence based.
Think about that show, The Mentalist. It's his intellect, not his instinct, that is putting the pieces together to find the panic room.
I wholeheartedly agree that Search should be seperate. It's an active conscious effort and choice of the individual - and should be INT based.
Spot/listen (perception) is a passive (wisdom based) ability that is just there......
And that's a great show by the way! Excellent comparison.
Robert
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haveyou seen our suggestion of using spellcaster level?
I was involved in that conversation - I think it's an excellent way to go.
But it would signifcantly hurt paladins and rangers unless their caster levels are bumped up to Caster Level -3 (which I believe they should).
Regardless, A Will Save would be preferable to a Spellcraft Check.
However, I passionately feel that the save/skill DC whatever needs to take into consideration the BAB of the threatening creature - and increased difficulty for every additional threatening creature - much like Tumble is.
Robert
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An alternative might be to allow a paladin (only) to take fighter-only feats as a fighter of their level -3.Yeah, but then that opens up all of the Fighter Feats to Paladins which detracts somewhat from the Fighter's Abilities. Making specific case allowances is much better than opening the door and letting everyone in for a look.
No - that's actually a GREAT idea! I know I'm potentially known as a big lover of paladins (which I admit I am), but that just makes sense.
Regardless, even if it does open up "all fighter feats"; at this point it isn't like the paladin has a bunch of extra feats to be throwing around....he is one of only three classes that don't get bonus feats.
Robert
When concentration was added to spellcraft, it favored wizards.
Now being a will save, it favors clerics.
I see wizards complaining now, and clerics smile. Especially since they don't have as many skill points compared to the int bonus of the wizards to invest in concentration. :)
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When concentration was added to spellcraft, it favored wizards.
Now being a will save, it favors clerics.
I see wizards complaining now, and clerics smile. Especially since they don't have as many skill points compared to the int bonus of the wizards to invest in concentration. :)
Good point - since clerics will have the dominant Wisdom out of the bunch.
One way to fix it is: make Combat Casting a +4 on this save, and give that feat for free to Wizards and Sorcerers at say 2nd level.
Robert
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- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
If you can take a moment, Jason; I feel it would sit better with me and I'm sure others feel the same way - if you can at least express your logic/philosophy in being so against Concentration - while so many have pushed for it - perhaps it would help appear a bit less draconian and maybe even sway others opinions if we knew the foundation of your opposition.....
Im not specifically opposed to Concentration being removed - I am opposed to lumping into Spellcraft; but another mechanic is certainly something worth exploring - i'm just interested in hearing your concerns.
Thanks
Robert
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Director of Games
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Truth be told, Concentration is just unnecessary. Successfully casting spells mandated it in many situations, making the skill a requirement for far too many classes. Add this in to a number of other compulsory (or nearly so) skill choices (Knowledge, Spellcraft, etc) and a lot of your spellcasters started to look the same. This skill was also based on Con, making it an oddity. In the end, to narrow things a bit it got rolled into Spellcraft, for reasons I won't go over here, but now I am thinking that it should be a simple automatic function (either a save or a caster level check).
I know that it screws with Psionics, but we can deal with that problem when we come to it.
Concentration is dead (along with Use Rope.. uggg)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Truth be told, Concentration is just unnecessary. Successfully casting spells mandated it in many situations, making the skill a requirement for far too many classes. Add this in to a number of other compulsory (or nearly so) skill choices (Knowledge, Spellcraft, etc) and a lot of your spellcasters started to look the same. This skill was also based on Con, making it an oddity. In the end, to narrow things a bit it got rolled into Spellcraft, for reasons I won't go over here, but now I am thinking that it should be a simple automatic function (either a save or a caster level check).
I know that it screws with Psionics, but we can deal with that problem when we come to it.
Concentration is dead (along with Use Rope.. uggg)
One issue with making it into a non-Skill function is that it would tend to break a lot of the already-published DCs for other uses of the Concentration skill check. So backwards compatibility would suffer. If it stays some form of a skill (like Spellcraft), the DCs likely would not need any adjustment.
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Director of Games
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One issue with making it into a non-Skill function is that it would tend to break a lot of the already-published DCs for other uses of the Concentration skill check. So backwards compatibility would suffer. If it stays some form of a skill (like Spellcraft), the DCs likely would not need any adjustment.
C'mon Russ, you and I both know there are not that many published non-spellcasting uses of the Concentration skill... and those that are, can easily be rolled into the new system, at the same DC, so long as the new system is built right.
C'mon... :-)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Truth be told, Concentration is just unnecessary. Successfully casting spells mandated it in many situations, making the skill a requirement for far too many classes. Add this in to a number of other compulsory (or nearly so) skill choices (Knowledge, Spellcraft, etc) and a lot of your spellcasters started to look the same. This skill was also based on Con, making it an oddity. In the end, to narrow things a bit it got rolled into Spellcraft, for reasons I won't go over here, but now I am thinking that it should be a simple automatic function (either a save or a caster level check).
I know that it screws with Psionics, but we can deal with that problem when we come to it.
Concentration is dead (along with Use Rope.. uggg)
Amen!
I hope you're still considering the elimination of concentration rolls as a skill function. While we're at it, how about losing Kno: Arcana or Spellcraft? Without concentration, they are very difficult to distinguish from each other. The best I've seen is "Theory" and "Practice", which is too fine a line I think.
I do have a question though, what does rope use fall under now ?If you are using rope to tie up a character, it is a function of the grapple rules. If you are using rope to climb up a surface, that is a function of the climb skill now. It was kinda silly to make two checks to climb up a wall, when really the rope should just give you a bonus.
Note: we require rules for setting Escape DCs for helpless opponents. I'm not convinced that the grapple rules are the right place for this. Other than that, I'm fine with the grapple and climb parts being where they are. Thanks!
Amen!
I hope you're still considering the elimination of concentration rolls as a skill function. While we're at it, how about losing Kno: Arcana or Spellcraft? Without concentration, they are very difficult to distinguish from each other. The best I've seen is "Theory" and "Practice", which is too fine a line I think.
Second that. Combine the two and give it to all spellcasters.
As for concentration, I agree with Jason. It must go.
An alternate system must be found.
Caster level check could be interesting. But at high levels, it would end like concentration, since caster level goes up every level, and concentration DCs goes up every two levels.
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Second that. Combine the two and give it to all spellcasters.
As for concentration, I agree with Jason. It must go.
An alternate system must be found.
Caster level check could be interesting. But at high levels, it would end like concentration, since caster level goes up every level, and concentration DCs goes up every two levels.
consider that the DC is always a number + the spell level, also it would depend on the weather or the damage recieved (every hp of a wound goes to the spells DC to keep it)
while a low level wizard is unable to cast a spell in a storm due to inexperience, an archmage should be able to do with mild displeasure, that is the diffenrece between the years of experience between one and the other. (while i take time finding some important data under preasure, my boss is able to do the same in a fraction of time)
consider that the DC is always a number + the spell level, also it would depend on the weather or the damage recieved (every hp of a wound goes to the spells DC to keep it)
while a low level wizard is unable to cast a spell in a storm due to inexperience, an archmage should be able to do with mild displeasure, that is the diffenrece between the years of experience between one and the other. (while i take time finding some important data under preasure, my boss is able to do the same in a fraction of time)
DC for weather conditions are not that difficult, not more than casting defensively. And for HP damage, if you're casting defensively, you will not have one.
Also, DCs for lower spells would be very easy.I think that a 17th level wizard should have a hard time to cast his 9th level spell, as a wizard lvl 1, with his first level spell.
Of course, the 17th level wizard will not fail to cast a 1st level spell.
With concentration in 3.5 it ended like this.
spell level rank max DC=15+spell level die roll needed
1 4 16 12
2 6 17 11
3 8 18 10
4 10 19 9
5 12 20 8
6 14 21 7
7 16 22 6
8 18 23 5
9 20 24 4
This without account of feats or ability modifier.
For a spell lower than the highest the caster can use, DCs are even lower, even no need of rolling the die. I think there should still be some risk, at least for your highest level spells.
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Caster level check could be interesting. But at high levels, it would end like concentration, since caster level goes up every level, and concentration DCs goes up every two levels.
Not if the DC is also based on the BAB, level, HD, or other level-based mechanic of the threatening opponent. Then the DC scales with relativity to the caster level check.
Robert
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Truth be told, Concentration is just unnecessary. Successfully casting spells mandated it in many situations, making the skill a requirement for far too many classes. Add this in to a number of other compulsory (or nearly so) skill choices (Knowledge, Spellcraft, etc) and a lot of your spellcasters started to look the same. This skill was also based on Con, making it an oddity. In the end, to narrow things a bit it got rolled into Spellcraft, for reasons I won't go over here, but now I am thinking that it should be a simple automatic function (either a save or a caster level check).
I know that it screws with Psionics, but we can deal with that problem when we come to it.
Concentration is dead (along with Use Rope.. uggg)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
thank you Jason. I appreciate that. I agree with you for the most part - at least enough to agree and be satisfied with the decision.
You have a point that they all looked alike and that it was an essential skill to the class without fail - hopefully your team will see and use the same logic with Perform and Bards (as I have posted the impracticality of having the bard's main class feature be hamstrung by strict adherence to a particular skill.)
So with that being said - I am sure a good and reasonable alternate system can be reached for "casting defensively."
It is my strong opinion that it should be opposed (affecting the DC) by those threatening the caster.
Again, Thanks.
Robert
Not if the DC is also based on the BAB, level, HD, or other level-based mechanic of the threatening opponent. Then the DC scales with relativity to the caster level check.Robert
100% agreed. Like tumble. This has bothered me since the beginning of 3E, and I quickly use the bab or level of the defender to adjust the difficulty.
This option is as good for me as the house rule I'm currently using for concentration.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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One issue with making it into a non-Skill function is that it would tend to break a lot of the already-published DCs for other uses of the Concentration skill check. So backwards compatibility would suffer. If it stays some form of a skill (like Spellcraft), the DCs likely would not need any adjustment.C'mon Russ, you and I both know there are not that many published non-spellcasting uses of the Concentration skill... and those that are, can easily be rolled into the new system, at the same DC, so long as the new system is built right.
C'mon... :-)
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Most of them still relate to spellcasting, yes, but there's a number of ways to intefere with or enhance spellcasting that aren't in the core SRD. From non-OGL sources, I can think of various bard-like prestige class abilities that make it hard to cast, Mordenkainen's buzzing bee, Mobile Spellcaster, that sort of thing. So if the bonus on check doesn't scale like a skill check does (saves do not) and the magnitude isn't roughly the same (caster level checks are not), then the base DCs for these alternate uses won't have good compatibility with PF RPG. Likely the checks will become a lot harder to pass if they aren't adjusted by the DM to fit the new system.
Does that make more sense?
Psionic Concentration getting slapped into Autohypnosis makes perfect sense to me. Knowledge: Psionics could then also carry the theoretical duties of Psicraft and leave the power-bungling to a Will save or what-have-you. After all, psionics always was a sci-fi magic cypher.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Not always Arakhor *coughcoughdarkovercoughValdamarcough*
I know when to walk away from a losing battle. And concentration + Pathfinder is a lost cause, so I want to be proactive and work towards the replacement.
I also do rate a concern for psionics higher than Mordenkainen's Buzzing Bee for example because Psionics is in the SRD, and that's what I think Pathfinder needs to tackle the most, is the missing SRD.
Anyway, for the search/perception part, I caught part of Wrath of the Dragon King and realized the difference in skills, hopefully in an example that makes sense (pun intended).
The entrance to the tomb.
Perception: Look! There's a phrase here!
Search: And the one word is misspelled. There's another!
Disable Device: So if we press here, here, and here...
Perception allows you to see the data, search allows you to assemble it, disable device allows you to act on it. That's why I think Search needs to be folded out of perception, it's more detailed.
Another example would be the torch/secret door combo. Perception might tell you that the torch is flickering. Search is where you go inch by inch, find the outline of the door, and that the sconce is loose.
Jason Bulmahn said-
- Skills: Concentration is gone and its role got shifted to Spellcraft, which has been pointed out as unfair to some classes that do not invest in a high Int. One compromise that is being considered is shifting the entire raft of uses over to a Will save, removing it from the skill system entirely. Thoughts?
We have all been looking at this from a perspective of changing the concentration mechanic when we should pull back and try a different approach. In the Epic level handbook it is suggested that non-Int based spellcasters can use their relevant spellcasting score to modify spellcraft intstead of Int. Why not open this option up at lower levels?
The Paladin and Sorcerer use Charisma for spellcraft, The Cleric and Ranger use Wisdom, and the Wizard and any other Int based use Intelligence? If each class can use the score to CAST spells then why can't they use it to maintain a spell, identify a spell, or prepare a spell?
Just a thought.
TL:DR Use spellcasting ability score for Spellcraft and keep Concentration in it.
Concentration rolled into Spellcraft has worked out fine in my games. The biggest "balancing factor" to keep down the auto-successes has been the new skill system itself. Everyone wants to spread their points out for the class bonus!
Keep Concentration in Spellcraft - I could live with it being a "casting stat" skill, although it would be needlessly confusing in certain situations (multiple casting classes, no casting classes, etc.) At the very least, please, no Will save.
Someone stated it perfectly above, and simply utterly disagree: a 17th level Wizard should not have *just* has hard a time casting defensively with a 9th level spell as a 1st level wizard with a 1st level spell. And I just can't see a Cloak of Resistance helping you keep your mind on your attackers.
I'm also vehemently opposed to having it tie in to Base attack Bonus of opponents, it simply makes it too difficult by far. I do fully support tying it to the # of opponents, just as Tumble did in 3.5 (and should again) +2 DC for every opponent threatening after the first. The anti-casting feats recently added (e.g. "Step Up") are plenty to make things more difficult.