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hey all i just wanted to ask you all how many DM allow the at will powers that do dmg to effect doors and walls, it says FOES which means doors and walls(unless they are attacking them) are not foes, and i already had the soc just sit and burn though any wall or door that gets in their way(before i read the power closely) what do u think should they be able to do this(as well as ray of frost that says target or any other cantrip that does dmg) please change any cantrip that does dmg to target of foe to stop them being using like a walk my way through walls and doors power.
Yeah don't forget to half the damage, and then apply hardness, as per the damaging objects section of the rules.
See below thread for another discussion on this issue:
hey all i just wanted to ask you all how many DM allow the at will powers that do dmg to effect doors and walls, it says FOES which means doors and walls(unless they are attacking them) are not foes, and i already had the soc just sit and burn though any wall or door that gets in their way(before i read the power closely) what do u think should they be able to do this(as well as ray of frost that says target or any other cantrip that does dmg) please change any cantrip that does dmg to target of foe to stop them being using like a walk my way through walls and doors power.
It does take some time to destroy objects, does it. Also it does make noise.
That gives the real foes (read monsters/villains) some time to preparefor the arrival of the PC's.
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the point is the 1st lvl powers at will shouldnt give them option to bypass any barrier, as sometimes there are no monsters in area or they got lots of time. as for the fighter and his master key, its easier to remove that if it becomes a problem, its harder to remove the at will powers(that goes for any cantrip that does dmg) plus fighters dont get it at 1st lvl, while caster do. in spirt of the powers it does say FOE and even though my player TRIED to convict me that the doors and walls are foes cause they stop him i will apply the letter of the power anyways. those of you dont see a problem with it may not be thinking of a bigger picture, like well they throw a caster into a jail they melt out of it, or any castle now can be taken by 1 caster making a new door for the invading army, it charges warfare in a massive way, and to make every wall resistance is not the way to go, the way to go is to not allow a 0 lvl spell as a master key.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Changing the hardness rules could be a solution. As it is, only acid and sonic bypass hardness, and cold only does 1/4 damage after applying hardness. Any at-will cold, fire, or electricity cantrip or SLA (being 0th or 1st level) will typically be unable to bypass even moderate hardness due to low power output to begin with. But any sonic or acid spell is a free pass to get through any obstacle.
But any sonic or acid spell is a free pass to get through any obstacle.
Acid and sonic damage don't bypass hardness in 3.5 (except for a few psionic powers that do sonic damage and specifically mention it bypasses hardness).
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Director of Brand Strategy
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But any sonic or acid spell is a free pass to get through any obstacle.Acid and sonic damage don't bypass hardness in 3.5 (except for a few psionic powers that do sonic damage and specifically mention it bypasses hardness).
The SRD states that they "deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit." All other energy types listed mention applying hardness, but sonic and acid do not.
the point is the 1st lvl powers at will shouldnt give them option to bypass any barrier, as sometimes there are no monsters in area or they got lots of time. as for the fighter and his master key, its easier to remove that if it becomes a problem, its harder to remove the at will powers(that goes for any cantrip that does dmg) plus fighters dont get it at 1st lvl, while caster do. in spirt of the powers it does say FOE and even though my player TRIED to convict me that the doors and walls are foes cause they stop him i will apply the letter of the power anyways. those of you dont see a problem with it may not be thinking of a bigger picture, like well they throw a caster into a jail they melt out of it, or any castle now can be taken by 1 caster making a new door for the invading army, it charges warfare in a massive way, and to make every wall resistance is not the way to go, the way to go is to not allow a 0 lvl spell as a master key.
Any BBEG who captures a mage and doesn't keep him separate from other prisoners with a bag over his head and hands bound behind his back (preferably suspended upside down over something nasty)... is asking for trouble.
I do agree to some point though, I'm not over fond of the at-will powers.
"You start slowly burning through the wooden door. What is everyone else doing? ......Ok you door is charring black and got some hot coals started in it now. Everyone else just sitting around waiting? Anyone want to go out and check on the horses? Ok the door has actually caught fire now and will burn on its own. Your thinking maybe 20-30 mins before a good hard kick will take it down? Whats everyone doing for 20 mins?......."
It's already more or less that way. Roll 1d6, ok I subtract hardness, you do 0 points of damage. Roll again...
But if the BBEG keeps the wizard suspended over a pot of burning coals this isn't an issue. :)
I don't have a problem with the idea that, given sufficient (longish) time, typical barriers can be broken down.
Well, I think it's kind of dumb that a strong fighter can hack through a solid stone wall with a regular greatsword in 10 minutes, but otherwise "ditto".
I don't have a problem with the idea that, given sufficient (longish) time, typical barriers can be broken down.Well, I think it's kind of dumb that a strong fighter can hack through a solid stone wall with a regular greatsword in 10 minutes, but otherwise "ditto".
Indeed... and that same non-magical greatsword is undamaged in the exchange. Ultimately maybe the hardness rules need to be revisited.
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The SRD states that they "deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit." All other energy types listed mention applying hardness, but sonic and acid do not.But any sonic or acid spell is a free pass to get through any obstacle.Acid and sonic damage don't bypass hardness in 3.5 (except for a few psionic powers that do sonic damage and specifically mention it bypasses hardness).
Yes, you roll damage and apply normally, like most creatures. If I attack a door with a mace, I still subtract hardness from the roll.
It's been confirmed on multiple discussions when 3.5 was still in the Wizards boards, acid and sonic do NOT bypass hardness. No at-will power should be able to do so.
Acid and sonic damage don't bypass hardness in 3.5 (except for a few psionic powers that do sonic damage and specifically mention it bypasses hardness).The SRD states that they "deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit." All other energy types listed mention applying hardness, but sonic and acid do not.
I see the ambiguity now. To me "roll damage and apply it normally" means that the damage is not halved (as with fire & electricity) or quartered (as with cold) before applying hardness. I'm not sure what the intent was supposed to be, now.
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"You start slowly burning through the wooden door. What is everyone else doing? ......Ok you door is charring black and got some hot coals started in it now. Everyone else just sitting around waiting? Anyone want to go out and check on the horses? Ok the door has actually caught fire now and will burn on its own. Your thinking maybe 20-30 mins before a good hard kick will take it down? Whats everyone doing for 20 mins?......."
Meanwhile the NPC smelling the smoke have taken off out the back exit and headed for the peir.
That's also my take on it and don't forget that smelling is now included in perception and if you use acid it'll be similar to fire if not worst. Those monster snouts and big nostrils are there for something!
People can actualy drill threw granite with metal hand tools and HUGE amount of time. Just don't make it a free pass to the treasure.
My players went threw a metal door just that way (acid globes) in about 15 rounds if I remember correclty. I gave some hints about the smell and some guards came over to figure what was happening, the guards didn't figure it out in time and where supprised but they were there!
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Can you post where acid and sonic actually state they bypass hardness? The only rules we've mentioned including them is that they 'deal damage normally just as most creatures'. This does not say they disregard hardness, and I do not believe that is a fair assumption to make just because the other ones that halve or quarter themselves specify it. That a 'creature normally' does not bypass hardness would lead me to believe acid and sonic do not either.
In this case, the 1d3 that most cantrips do could never bypass even something as low as 3 Hardness.
acid or sound bypass DR(as posted by others) so yes they can just keep attacking it and it cuts through doors much easier and faster than a axe.
Damage Reduction is not the same as Hardness.
Hardness stats that whenever the object takes damage to subtract hardness. No matter the source of the damage. The only place it mentions anything about energy damage, is where it states that you half electrical and fire, quarter cold, and use regular acid and sonic damage to be applied.
You still apply Hardness. Which means that level 2 sorcerer over there with acidic ray will roll 1d6+1 damage then subtract hardness. Means about 1 point of damage a round for a number of rounds equal to the HP of the object, which by the way is measured in HP/Inch. Most stone walls are much more than 1 inch thick.
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everyone is not seeing the point here, the point is they SHOULD not be able to do this not that it will draw monsters or BBEG will hear or another reason, a cantrip should not have the power to go through walls and doors IN ANY amount of it.
I do like the idea that acid and sound dont bypass DR, that would fix my problem with the at will powers.
everyone is not seeing the point here, the point is they SHOULD not be able to do this not that it will draw monsters or BBEG will hear or another reason, a cantrip should not have the power to go through walls and doors IN ANY amount of it.
I do like the idea that acid and sound dont bypass DR, that would fix my problem with the at will powers.
To which my reply is, "Why not? The fighter can do it, and in less time too."
Beyond that the acid splash and ray of frost won't make it through, the first level powers could, but a mere d3 isn't going to bypass hardness
Hardness =/= Damage Reduction
Different things people.
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To which my reply is, "Why not? The fighter can do it, and in less time too."
because you as a DM you control if they can by allowing them to buy the material that allows this, AND they dont get it at 1st lvl, how many quests use doors and walls to direct the flow of the quest, alot. with a simple 0st lvl power that is all thrown out the window. now i was under the impression that energy attacks bypass hardness when acid and sound was use, this is not the case it seems so now looking at the at will power i can see that they are not as bad as i thought.
because you as a DM you control if they can by allowing them to buy the material that allows this, AND they dont get it at 1st lvl[..]To which my reply is, "Why not? The fighter can do it, and in less time too."
A 1st level fighter with 18 Str and a regular greatsword can do 2d6+6=13 damage against a stone wall with 8 hardness = 5 damage per round (roughly). That's slightly better than a 1d6+1 acid or sonic ray, even if you allow acid and sonic to bypass hardness (which I don't believe they do).
No special material is needed for a fighter to breakdown a door/wall. A typical 10 ft. by 10 ft. wooden wall has a hardness of 5 and 60 hit points.
A human fighter with a 16 Strength and a battle axe, will on average deal 7 points of damage per swing without any feats or class abilities modifying the damage. After hardness, that is 2 points of damage to the wall. In 30 rounds (3 minutes) he will have cleared a 10 ft. breach in the wall.
In the case of a Masonary wall, a 10 ft. section has a hardness of 8 and 90 hp. While above the average damage, it is still within the damage range of a regular battleaxe by RAW. At 4th level, Weapon Specialization alone will move the damage to the point that the average damage is greater than the hardness of masonry.
And again and again and again I say it:
Hardness =/= DR (damage reduction)
See the words? They are different. There is a reason for that.
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Well, I will disagree this once a little bit. They are very similar, in that they both have a number associated with them that you always subtract away from damage dealth. If you do 8 (weapon) damage to something with 5 Hardness or something with DR 5/good, you're doing 3 damage either way. The difference with DR is that there is usually something you can do to bypass it as well, and it does follow other different and specific rules when mentioning DR.
In Hardnesses' case, the only thing that really bypasses it is adamantine. Otherwise, yes, the point is sound and unfortunately true. Given any decent weapon, or greatsword, and enough time, a player can chop through anything. Since there are no rules for the weapon taking damage, it is a metagamey thing that exists and just must be dealt with as it arises.
... Since there are no rules for the weapon taking damage, it is a metagamey thing that exists and just must be dealt with as it arises.
True, but if I interpret the rules correctly you still have to make an atack roll every time to hit the object. Usually you'll only miss on a 1. This means nothing as is but if you factor in a chance of fumble and weapon damage you'll have a solution. Hammer + Thumb = let's think about this idea again!
If you use the Fumble deck your players will clearly think about it before chopping threw wall or even using at-will powers or cantrips that all call for to-hit rolls and chance fumbling.
Again, it's an if, and just supports my point. Without House Rules, any player can take down most anything with a single weapon.
Agreed, I just wanted to make sure people understood that Hardness =/= damage reduction becuase damage reduction doesn't stop energy effects and Hardness does, which is why they are two different things.
In some campaigns I DM/ed I was even glad the rules to damage doors-walls existed.
As my players couldn´t solve the puzzle and would have been stuck otherwise.
Gladly we had a half giant barbarian war/hulk who was able to bust the party through a 2,5 meter thick stone door. )pebble by pebble.
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everyone is not seeing the point here, the point is they SHOULD not be able to do this not that it will draw monsters or BBEG will hear or another reason, a cantrip should not have the power to go through walls and doors IN ANY amount of it.
I do like the idea that acid and sound dont bypass DR, that would fix my problem with the at will powers.
First of all - i completely agree with you - it's something that I've had a problem with and seen players try to abuse it this way, too. One of the reasons why its more attractive and lucrative than a brute chopping it down is that i don't perceive shooting acid splash/dart etc as making much of a noise at all - especially in comparison to the dwarf with the axe....
Intereventions are thus:
1) Lay the ground work that "FOE" means some type of creature. Perhaps the qualifier is that it's something that can "attack" you. Or something that you roll initiative to resolve.
2) This is what I relayed to my player after arguing with him the same dam thing ("It is a foe of mine - i dub it so, because the wall is blocking me, preventing me from my goal - thus it is my enemy!)
"Well, if wizards/sorcerers are commonly able to do this and has been that way for quite some time - then no vault, no kings secret quarter, no hiding place, or official will ever be safe behind any barrier - then such persons needing such security will have evolved and found a way to overcome such magic as commonplace - much like hackers and anti-viruses continue to counter the other. In this world (my campaign) the population came together in a grand celebration when a clan of crafty dwarves figured out how to make 'acid-resistant steel' and are now the richest and most powerful clan in the world as all nations lined up to buy this priceless material. Many generations passed, and most structures, buildings, castles, dungeons and appropriate objects are now created from such material element resistant material......."
The player pouted.
I posted this exact same concern here.
This makes so much sense. We've developed air conditioners to protect us from the heat, we've created heaters to protect us from the cold, we've created sun-block to protect us from the sun, and we have welding gloves and goggles designed to protect from the welding arcs; hell we even build a canal through Panama to save ships weeks spent at sea. Technology continues to find ways to cope with something that needs to be dealt with; element-resistant material is just the next evolution in a world of dragons and wizards.
Robert
In some campaigns I DM/ed I was even glad the rules to damage doors-walls existed.
As my players couldn´t solve the puzzle and would have been stuck otherwise.
Gladly we had a half giant barbarian war/hulk who was able to bust the party through a 2,5 meter thick stone door. )pebble by pebble.
In my Planescape campaign, I had a barbarian with an adamantine great axe that routinely made his own doors. At high level, he could do enough damage to go all Kool-aid man on a wall and get behind opponents in a round or two. It was a fun character build, so i had no problem with it.
checking the D&D FAQ acid and sound DO NOT bypass hardness so case close
While I agree that acid and sound should not bypass hardness, the D&D FAQ is a poor reference for clarifying things in the Pathfinder RPG beta.
checking the D&D FAQ acid and sound DO NOT bypass hardness so case closeWhile I agree that acid and sound should not bypass hardness, the D&D FAQ is a poor reference for clarifying things in the Pathfinder RPG beta.
It is, however, a great reference for things that Jason should clarify when he's rewriting the rules.
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It is, however, a great reference for things that Jason should clarify when he's rewriting the rules.checking the D&D FAQ acid and sound DO NOT bypass hardness so case closeWhile I agree that acid and sound should not bypass hardness, the D&D FAQ is a poor reference for clarifying things in the Pathfinder RPG beta.
Indeed