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A member of the party says that since the loremaster says he can learn any language as a class ability he can learn druidc without being a druid? Can some please tell me if this is possble? If it's a secret language how can he learn? And while he's in the runeforge he should have no way to learn ANY laguages anyway! Is Paizo going to do something about this or are druids getting screwed here?
Oooh poor druid doesn't get his secret language! Boo Hoo!
*I know DB3 IRL, and we joke around like this, it's not malicious****
RAW, the Loremaster can choose ANY language. Considering this is a class ability, training is assumed during his down time... and the wizard in question has an Int in the range of 27~31, with two druids he can try and listen in on...(one druid now that the other managed to cook himself to death).
BTW I'm not the wizard in question, though I'm playing a similar build.
I would say no. Big NO. It is a secret language.
Reasoning:
How can you learn something only a few people use, and they only teach it to chosen few who joins them?
Approach:
1. It is stupid, Simple. Say to him there is no way in Nine Hells that you will allow it.
2. If it is your campaign, and you don't like it, don't allow it, Simple. Don't be a bastard about it, just calmly explain it to that person.
3. If number two doesn't work go with number one.
(I would go with number 3, and I don't like munchkins (Yeah, burn me on a stake), most of my sessions go on roleplay and few encounters to hear dice rolling and to spice things a bit.
Hope it helps.
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A member of the party says that since the loremaster says he can learn any language as a class ability he can learn druidc without being a druid? Can some please tell me if this is possble? If it's a secret language how can he learn? And while he's in the runeforge he should have no way to learn ANY laguages anyway! Is Paizo going to do something about this or are druids getting screwed here?
The "rules" wouldn't generally allow it but....
Does it fit your campaign? Does he have an explanation to how he learned it that would not be world altering ((ie learned it in college)? Any other players playing a druid or affected in other ways?
In other words, if he wants it and no one else cares, fit it in. Personally, I would ensure he was aware the consequences of knowing a "secret" language and have fun with it. As the DM you should certainly enjoy the 2 NPC Druids who hunt the loremaster through adventure after adventure seeking to protect their religion's compromised secret language by permanently silencing the heretic, non-believer who somehow broke the code.
The funniest part is the guy doesn't want it to flaunt it, he just wants to know every language in the world. There are two druids in the party, he has 14 ranks in linguisitics, and an INT of around 30ish if I remember correctly. He's not even making a big deal in character about figuring it out to the other players (he has told the DM he is studying the heck out of it, the druids did say something at one point in druidic in front of him.)
Beyond that the loremaster ability says any language. Doesn't say you can't learn a secret language or anything of the sort.
However it really doesn't matter to much, the guy wants it as part of his "know every language in the world' shtick, not for some gamebreaking reason.
DB3 is just upset becuase it somehow makes the druid less "special".
Also the DM hasn't ruled one way or the other yet, he's still thinking about it.
In terms of learning non-standard or secret languages, my opinion is that you need an in-game rationale of why you can learn it. Aka you need some viable amount of exposure to it in order to realistically spend those skill points to learn it. Otherwise for instance a loremaster who never had any written sources for language B, and wasn't exposed to native speakers of language B, could learn language B just because the RAW said they could. The RAW be damned if it makes no sense in-game.
If the player can justify the learning, go for it, but otherwise no.
And even then, some language I simply don't let PCs learn like for instance say it's a language of ancient fiends and it'll make their brain explode by exposure to it if they aren't also a full blooded fiend.
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To be honest I would allow it. He has sources for the language, he has the intelligence easily for the language, and has said he is researching it.
While the language may be "secret" there is little likelihood that there is no documents referencing the language and that no other wizards have ever tried to break the "secret" language.
The place to beware is with long dead languages.
And shoot just how "secret" can the language be? If he chose to take a quick level in druid, even with no other druids near to teach him, he'd have the "secret" language spontaneously. So, obviously it is so complex and mystified no one could ever just figure it out *dripping sarcasm*
I am going to say that yes, they can.
I don't particularly *like* the answer, but it's what we're left with.
Half-Elf and Human can both learn any language (except secret languages, such as druidic).
This is important because it sets a precedent for "can learn any language" in that it does include druidic, unless it has the exception after it.
The Lore master has the language "can choose any new language" but without the disclaimers on the typically forbidden secret languages.
I would think that absent them correcting it, then by the raw of the beta the loremaster can spend one of his 2 "free languages" on Druidic if he or she so chooses.
-S
I'm sure there are Blighters out there who can be bribed into teaching folks Druidic. It sets up a nice roleplaying encounter, and it questions if the loremaster is willing to consort with evil to meet his ambitions. Especially since he has 2 druid allies...
If the character is that smart, and a linguist, and the two Druids in the party take to conversing amongst themselves in Druidic, I see no reason that the character could not have picked up the language just by benefit of exposure. You know, like that scene in the 13th warrior.
1) The easiest way to be a blighter is to teach Druidic to a non-druid
2) It seems to me that people think that druids who meet are going to speak druidic more often than any other language.
3) The wizard in question has already committed an evil act so it's not impossible to think he would consort with a blighter (unless he didn't take any precautions) but I'm gonna leave his death (if he does indeed learn druidic) to the only druid left in the group. It should be fun watching Druard(yes that's the druids name) Being utterly defeated.
I would just let him learn it. What's the big deal? If its fun for the player and doesn't change any game balance, let him speak druid.
In fact, let everyone speak druid, make it the new common. Then the druids can tear their hair out and whine to the animals. Or wildshape into squirrels and chitter at each other.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And shoot just how "secret" can the language be? If he chose to take a quick level in druid, even with no other druids near to teach him, he'd have the "secret" language spontaneously.
Actually, that's as good a sign as any, to my perspective, that simple Linguistics cannot enable a character to learn Druidic, any more than it can teach him to mimic a wizard's communication with her familiar or a gnome's ability to talk with burrowing mammals.
"Druidic" isn't a language, per se. It's an aural form of communications, but it's a "speaking in tongues" effect; the power of being a Druid allows one character to spontaneously know the "words" for "A plan so clever you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel" and another character to interpret that speech correctly.
But tomorrow morning, the same idea may be spoken in entirely different phonemes.
Under this interpretation, a tongues effect would allow people to understand Druidic.
The effort to teach Druidic to a non-druid somehow demands that a Druid look at that speech in a new, rational light, and "breaks the spell." In debasing the sacred tongue, a Druid debases herself.
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And shoot just how "secret" can the language be? If he chose to take a quick level in druid, even with no other druids near to teach him, he'd have the "secret" language spontaneously.Actually, that's as good a sign as any, to my perspective, that simple Linguistics cannot enable a character to learn Druidic, any more than it can teach him to mimic a wizard's communication with her familiar or a gnome's ability to talk with burrowing mammals.
"Druidic" isn't a language, per se. It's an aural form of communications, but it's a "speaking in tongues" effect; the power of being a Druid allows one character to spontaneously know the "words" for "A plan so clever you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel" and another character to interpret that speech correctly.
But tomorrow morning, the same idea may be spoken in entirely different phonemes.
Under this interpretation, a tongues effect would allow people to understand Druidic.
The effort to teach Druidic to a non-druid somehow demands that a Druid look at that speech in a new, rational light, and "breaks the spell." In debasing the sacred tongue, a Druid debases herself.
Huh? So you're saying Druidic is a magical language as well? I think Druidic is listed as a language, so I would say it is a language.
I suppose changing Druidic to a magical language that changes meaning every time it is spoken is as valid a way to do things as any. A bit of a stretch but I suppose if you want it to work that way, it's your game...
Personally, I see no support for stretching that far and would not recommend it for the general populace.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Huh? So you're saying Druidic is a magical language as well? I think Druidic is listed as a language, so I would say it is a language.
I suppose changing Druidic to a magical language that changes meaning every time it is spoken is as valid a way to do things as any. A bit of a stretch but I suppose if you want it to work that way, it's your game...
Personally, I see no support for stretching that far and would not recommend it for the general populace.
I support this fully! It might not be RAW, but it certainly explains how druidic works as something spontaneously known and unlearnable by those not equally in-tune with nature as a druid. Very nice.
Actually, that's as good a sign as any, to my perspective, that simple Linguistics cannot enable a character to learn Druidic, any more than it can teach him to mimic a wizard's communication with her familiar or a gnome's ability to talk with burrowing mammals.
"Druidic" isn't a language, per se. It's an aural form of communications, but it's a "speaking in tongues" effect; the power of being a Druid allows one character to spontaneously know the "words" for "A plan so clever you could stick a tail on it and call it a weasel" and another character to interpret that speech correctly.
But tomorrow morning, the same idea may be spoken in entirely different phonemes.
Under this interpretation, a tongues effect would allow people to understand Druidic.
The effort to teach Druidic to a non-druid somehow demands that a Druid look at that speech in a new, rational light, and "breaks the spell." In debasing the sacred tongue, a Druid debases herself.
Yeah I got a supporter!
Huh? So you're saying Druidic is a magical language as well? I think Druidic is listed as a language, so I would say it is a language.
I wouldm't say magical so much as a language sacred to the druids only. So sacred to them, in fact, that even trying to teach this language is sacrilage and causes the loss of all druidic abilities.
And if you plan to give class specific ability to any one then you sholud be prepared to give rage to rogues, spontaneous cating of cure spells to wizards, and so on. Can you imagine what would happen if any class could have any other class's features without losing the original class abilities?
Who says Druidic is a spoken language anyway?
1) Loremasters have a special, specific ability to learn any new language; it is not restricted in the text, errata, or FAQ; and their whole shtick is learning obscure lore and secrets.
2) It is clearly possible for non-druids to learn Druidic, or else there wouldn't be a prohibition on teaching it to non-druids or consequences for doing so.
So, I'd certainly allow a Loremaster to pick up Druidic as his 4th or 8th level bonus language.
And if you plan to give class specific ability to any one then you sholud be prepared to give rage to rogues, spontaneous cating of cure spells to wizards, and so on. Can you imagine what would happen if any class could have any other class's features without losing the original class abilities?
The Loremaster is not "anyone", it is a class with a specific class feature here to learn any language. It's not analogous to giving the wizard class the ability to converts spells to cures; it is analogous to a prestige class that specifically allows a character to spontaneously convert his prepared arcane spells to cures.
Druidic is a magical language, as far as I'm concerned. The Ogham runes protect its scripts from being deciphered with comprehend languages and the druidic oaths prevent it being taught to anyone else. It is the language of druidic spells and thus cannot be just "learnt" without druidic training.
Druidic is a magical language, as far as I'm concerned. The Ogham runes protect its scripts from being deciphered with comprehend languages and the druidic oaths prevent it being taught to anyone else. It is the language of druidic spells and thus cannot be just "learnt" without druidic training.
Thank you.
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Druidic is a magical language, as far as I'm concerned. The Ogham runes protect its scripts from being deciphered with comprehend languages and the druidic oaths prevent it being taught to anyone else. It is the language of druidic spells and thus cannot be just "learnt" without druidic training.Thank you.
To each their own, I guess.... Although, I think someone w/ Druidic training has been posting the no longer secret alphabet of Ogham on Wiki.... Let's hunt the blasphemous traitor down and save a tree!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham
Seriously, what would be the big deal? What could it hurt? Unless their is a Druid PC, who would even notice? I would find a way for the "Loremaster" (provided he authors a solid back story)to enjoy his "prestige class" and allow him to "decode" the secret language, if he so desires. Just beware the consequences of such knowledge. As Druidic enmity can be a scary thing as well as a terrific story line and/or adventure hook!! I might even run a whole campaign around the concept.
This smacks of the druid players saying, "I've got something you don't have! I've got something you don't have!" and when the Loremaster player asks to play with it, they don't want him to have it... even though, in their own words, they don't even use the language in the party. Learn to share. It's clearly supported by the rules. Plus, it gives you a tactical advantage to have more members of the party be able to communicate without being understood. Sharing leads to tactical benefits.