I read the rogue talent and there is one that I don't understand. It calls "Surprise Attacks".
In fact it is written that "During the surprise round,
opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue
with this ability, even if they have acted."
I don't understand, because during a surprise round, every opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed, even if the PC is not a Rogue. And as it is written, "During the surprise round" and "even if they have acted", How can it be a surprise round if the opponents have acted?
So is there an error, and we have to write not "during the surprise round" but rather "during the first round even if the rogue has not the initiative on the opponent?
Can you help me, please?
I read the rogue talent and there is one that I don't understand. It calls "Surprise Attacks".
In fact it is written that "During the surprise round,
opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue
with this ability, even if they have acted."
I don't understand, because during a surprise round, every opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed, even if the PC is not a Rogue. And as it is written, "During the surprise round" and "even if they have acted", How can it be a surprise round if the opponents have acted?
So is there an error, and we have to write not "during the surprise round" but rather "during the first round even if the rogue has not the initiative on the opponent?
Can you help me, please?
There can be surprised opponents on both sides during a surprise round.
So some of you enemies can act some others not. And you can sneak attack any of them.Also, your fellow companions can be surprised by an enemy group, and your rogue will be the only one not surprised because he's the only one to have heard/spotted the attack. During this surprise round, he can sneak attack any of his enemies even if those have acted before him.
To make it short, you don't have to have initiative during a surprise round to sneak attack.
There can be surprised opponents on both sides during a surprise round.
So some of you enemies can act some others not.
To make it short, you don't have to have initiative during a surprise round to sneak attack.
In fact that's strange, because the way I play the round of surprise is not the same manner. In fat according to me, only the person that notice a thing can act, that is to say that in a group enter in a room, in a stealthy way, nobody notice them, so at the moment they decide to attack, they have a round of surprise during which, all opponents are flat-footed and can't attack (that like an extra round before roll the init) and at the end of this round, everyone roll his init, so that's why I found this rogue talent useless. It would be more fun if it was at each first round, even if the rogue has not the init of his opponent that he considers him as flat-footed.
In fact that's strange, because the way I play the round of surprise is not the same manner. In fat according to me, only the person that notice a thing can act, that is to say that in a group enter in a room, in a stealthy way, nobody notice them, so at the moment they decide to attack, they have a round of surprise during which, all opponents are flat-footed and can't attack (that like an extra round before roll the init) and at the end of this round, everyone roll his init, so that's why I found this rogue talent useless. It would be more fun if it was at each first round, even if the rogue has not the init of his opponent that he considers him as flat-footed.
If all your opponents are surprised, yes, this ability doesn't help you.
If not all of them are surprised, you can sneak attack opponents even if they have acted before you in the surprise round.
If all your opponents are surprised, yes, this ability doesn't help you.
If not all of them are surprised, you can sneak attack opponents even if they have acted before you in the surprise round.
OK, but I found this rogue talent useless, because it can be used as often as the other. So i'm going to talk with my player and explain to him that thing but I found it not well thinking (If I can allow me that sentence).
I read the rogue talent and there is one that I don't understand. It calls "Surprise Attacks".
In fact it is written that "During the surprise round,
opponents are always considered flat-footed to a rogue
with this ability, even if they have acted."
I don't understand, because during a surprise round, every opponents are ALWAYS flat-footed, even if the PC is not a Rogue. And as it is written, "During the surprise round" and "even if they have acted", How can it be a surprise round if the opponents have acted?
So is there an error, and we have to write not "during the surprise round" but rather "during the first round even if the rogue has not the initiative on the opponent?
Can you help me, please?
An opponent is not flat footed IF he has acted in the surprise round.
During the surprise round you still roll init. for the characters that were not surprised. So if the npc gets to act first and then the rogue after, then he would get to use this ability. If the rogue didn't have this ability then the npc WOULD not be flatfooted because he has acted in the round already.
Maybe you are handling the surprise round differently than what the rules say??
Not to say your wrong and I am right, just trying to understand. The rule to me seems very clear.
Not to say your wrong and I am right, just trying to understand. The rule to me seems very clear.
No, you're right, but often I think that if in a group of npc, there is one of them that notice the presence of the PC, it's logical that he says to his allies this fact so the group would not be surprise at all. Of course it depends on the way to manage for the PC, and have to act quickly, but I find that this situation is not so often in story and I find that if we give the possibility to a rogue to consider during the first round of a fight,, all his opponents as flat-footed, it would have been more powerful and logical, but the rule is not written in that way...
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Also, does this rogue talent beat uncanny dodge? If your opponent is ALWAYS considered flat footed in a surprize round, does that trump uncanny dodge which would allow you to not be considered flat footed? If the talent beats uncanny dodge, then that's another situation where it comes in handy.
I don't think it is supposed to do that. The way it's worded, the ability just negates the fact that opponents who have already acted during a surprise round are no longer considered flat-footed. It doesn't, IMO, imply that you can 'sneak' attack targets that normally wouldn't be eligible targets.
Yeah like DoR said, you'd have to be 5 rogue levels above what gives them the uncanny dodge ability.
No, you're right, but often I think that if in a group of npc, there is one of them that notice the presence of the PC, it's logical that he says to his allies this fact so the group would not be surprise at all. Of course it depends on the way to manage for the PC, and have to act quickly, but I find that this situation is not so often in story and I find that if we give the possibility to a rogue to consider during the first round of a fight,, all his opponents as flat-footed, it would have been more powerful and logical, but the rule is not written in that way...
Well, you can only take up to a standard action in a surprise round, which means a surprise round is, say, about three seconds long, compared to the six seconds of a full round.
Also, does this rogue talent beat uncanny dodge? If your opponent is ALWAYS considered flat footed in a surprize round, does that trump uncanny dodge which would allow you to not be considered flat footed? If the talent beats uncanny dodge, then that's another situation where it comes in handy.
It's still not very clear if Uncanny Dodge makes you IMMUNE to being flat-footed or merely let's you keep your Dex bonus EVEN if you are flat-footed.
Page 400: "Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity."
If the former (you are immune to the flat-footed condition), a character with Uncanny Dodge cannot be caught flat-footed at all, and so can also make Attacks of Opportunity in such situations.
If the latter (you only keep your Dex bonus while flat-footed), a character with Uncanny Dodge cannot make any Attacks of Opportunity while flat-footed (although s/he cannot be Sneak-attacked, for instance).
I personally would go for the latter.
Page 15: "Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. He still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead."
Whatever the case, however, Surprise Attack specifically says that "Opponents who cannot be caught flat-footed (such as through improved uncanny dodge) are immune." This, although makes Uncanny Dodge foggy again (what is its effective power?!?), and makes a slight mistake (it's UNCANNY Dodge, not IMPROVED Uncanny Dodge the ability about Dex bonuses and flat-footed condition), says that Surprise Attack cannot bypass defenses that allow you to retain your Dex bonus (whatever they are and whatever they effectively do...)