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I am not assuming that - This was a direct response to Abraham spalding's argument on how cheap it was to get all spells. My point was that he is ignoring 2 thirds of the cost of spells.
? You are assuming it by pricing it out that way. You are radically overstating the costs of acquiring spells in both by overstating the number of spells and the cost to acquire the spells. It's sort of like a fighter pricing out a +5 weapon of every weapon type in the game and calling that the cost of being a fighter.
I'll point out again that I was responding directly to Abraham spalding's extreme example of all spells, using his numbers. In no way do I believe that a wizard should have all, or anywhere near all, wizard spells know.
Also, I have not overstated the cost of spells. A scroll cost = caster level x spell level x 25GP (whether bought, found or part of a found spell book)Also, people talk about things such as DM's allowing borrowing of spellbooks or access to mage guilds or a number of other ways that their specific campaign reduces the cost. Exactly!!
Unless the DMs do these things to get around it, the cost is exorbitant.
You act like this is unusual or some sort of work-a-round but it's a method suggested in the rulebooks.
Again I say - Exactly! - 'suggested'. No other class has features that are suggested. Every other class knows the abilities, spells and feats that will be available to them.
That was 11 years, 9 DMs, 2 continents and only one low magic campaign.
I would posit as a counter to your position that any game without friendly or ambivalent wizards, with whom you can come to an amicable agreement about accessing their spellbooks at the 450gp max fee, or without access to spellbooks within the treasure of other, evil wizards/liches/whatever, where your method of spell acquisition has been limited only to scrolls, is in fact, low magic enough to be penalizing you substantially for selecting wizard as your class.
Even my low magic campaign, where I only allowed wujen and sorcerors as the PC arcane classes, replaced the cleric with the archivist, and written magic was something the PCs had to fight an empire for, still had enemy wizards and clerics losing scrolls and/or spellbooks to the PCs, and had thieves guilds willing to be hired to steal the Imperial
College wizard's spellbooks.
I agree I presented the most extreme example, however that means it's actually cheaper than what I put down for most players.
Also some more things to consider:
"A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from
the scroll. In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.
Independent Research: A wizard also can research a spell independently, duplicating an existing spell or creating
an entirely new one."
I don't see why the DM has to make room for the option of copying spellbooks. Presumably everyone goes to the store to buy supplies but the DM doesn't have to go out of his way to put the store in the town. It's just there. Less than 2 minutes to let people know it's possible. He doesn't have to copy the whole thing over either. In fact CotCT has mage colleges in it so it's even easier to find some place to copy from (granted this is campaign specific, but it's not that hard to add and most settings have something like it).
Independent research doesn't carry a cost other than scribing it in the spell book. Also you do get to keep the scroll even if you copy from it for a spell book.
Finally I again feel this is one of the few costs of playing a wizard, and should be viewed as such. You can have unlimited choice on your spells from your spellbook. If you don't want the spell book go play a sorcerer.
IF you don't want to pay for the spell book in gold you can choose to not do so... either don't take extra spells, OR take the spell mastery feat multiple times. The plus side is that no one can take spell mastery away from you.
Again I say - Exactly! - 'suggested'. No other class has features that are suggested. Every other class knows the abilities, spells and feats that will be available to them.
If you want to put it that way, spells are 'suggested' the same way that magic items and magic weapons are 'suggested'.
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Again I say - Exactly! - 'suggested'. No other class has features that are suggested. Every other class knows the abilities, spells and feats that will be available to them.If you want to put it that way, spells are 'suggested' the same way that magic items and magic weapons are 'suggested'.
No, they're not. They're an integral part of the system and are provided for in every treasure over a certain level. Nobody ever questions the fighter / cleric / rogue /etc 's need for their magic weapons or armor.
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I agree I presented the most extreme example, however that means it's actually cheaper than what I put down for most players.
Also some more things to consider:
"A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from
the scroll.
Yes it does. p166"...but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears."
See - yet more house rules used to reduce the cost.
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Finally I again feel this is one of the few costs of playing a wizard, and should be viewed as such. You can have unlimited choice on your spells from your spellbook. If you don't want the spell book go play a sorcerer.
IF you don't want to pay for the spell book in gold you can choose to not do so... either don't take extra spells, OR take the spell mastery feat multiple times. The plus side is that no one can take spell mastery away from you.
I don't mind paying for the spell - I just don't think I should have to pay for it twice.
Here is a clarification on memorizing spells from spellbooks other than your own (from the SRD):
A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcaster's book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell....
So, in order to prepare spells from another wizard's spellbook you must already have those spells recorded in your own spellbook...which means scribing costs.
...
Independent research doesn't carry a cost other than scribing it in the spell book. ...
Actually, if you check the DMG under independent research you'll find researching a spell costs 1000GP per spell level (and 1 weeks time per spell level).
So, just so everone can get their arguments straight here is a summary of the costs a wizard needs to pay in order to scribe a spell into a spellbook (other than the 2 free spells granted each level):
Access to a spell:
Find a spellbook or scroll (cost: free)
Borrow a spellbook (cost: 50gp x spell level)
Buy a Scroll (cost: spell level x caster level x 25)
Independently Research a spell (cost: 1000gp per spell level)
Scribe the spell:
Scribe into normal spellbook (100gp per spell level)
Scribe into Boccob's Blessed Book (free, but the 1000 page book costs 12,500gp -> 12.5 gp per page. Additionaly, the book could effectively hold 2000 pages worth of spells by using Secret Page)
Also, as mentioned earlier, you cannot use other wizards' spellbooks to prepare spells unless your personal spellbooks already have those spells scribed in them.
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Here's my house rules regarding this discussion...
1st: I have a Guild called the Guild of Arcane Lore (there are other guilds for each of the specialists as well). You can join a guild at the cost of 450 gold a year and 25 Gold/month + a gifted magic item each year or working community service for 7 days a month....ie lamplighting, fire brigade, divinations for the powers that be, scribing arcane lore tomes for the guild, searching for obscure items, etc...whatever the guild desires.
Benefits: 10% discount on items, Free Spell Research at Guild Hall, Use of Guild Lab for magic item creation, and can copy 1 spell for free from Guild Spell Books a month. ( I still control what spells are available at each Guild Hall...so adventuring for spell books is desirable)
2nd: There are two forms of Spell Books: A Spell Book/Tome and a Spell Record.
Spell Books are the thick volumes that require special binding and Vellum pages, get bennies on saves, all the spells within are written in a special Ink that holds the Manna on the pages and each page can be cast as a scroll in a pinch, but the page loses its magic and theres a 1% chance the pages on either side are lost as well...if a page is lost, there is an additional 1% for the next page...etc...(so casting out of a Spell Book...in an emergency is ok, but it wont be done often. Scribing a scroll into a spell book is at full cost no matter whether Guildmember or not, and takes 1 hour per spell level of uninterrupted work.
Spell Records are thinner volumes written in normal ink, on Papyrus, and sturdy for travel. Spell Records are only useful for memorization of spells. These are the books adventurers typically have and carry with them. They are available at 50% the cost of a normal spell book and cost 50% to scribe scrolls within. These are not coveted by other adventurers, because the shorthand and abbreviations within make learning spells out of them all but impossible. Scribing a spell into one of these takes 10 minutes per spell level.
Scrolls are minitiarized versions of a Spell Book or a spell record, depending on the usage...to learn a spell or cast a spell. and the cost is adjusted accordingly...and depending on the materials will hold that amount of spells.
Im not suggesting these be adapated by everyone...or as offical rules, just pointing out what Ive done that adds to the flavor of my home campaigns. If you like it, yoink it ;)
Dread
No, they're not. They're an integral part of the system and are provided for in every treasure over a certain level. Nobody ever questions the fighter / cleric / rogue /etc 's need for their magic weapons or armor.Again I say - Exactly! - 'suggested'. No other class has features that are suggested. Every other class knows the abilities, spells and feats that will be available to them.If you want to put it that way, spells are 'suggested' the same way that magic items and magic weapons are 'suggested'.
Umm.... just like spell acquisition is an integral part of the system. Scrolls are part of the random treasure tables, just the same as magic weapons are, spellbooks are often part of the treasure from wizards.
Here is the Combat gear for a wizard from a Paizo adventure I own:
If you have a gripe about treasure distribution then talk to your DM or whoever writes the modules you are running because treasure distribution is up to them, it is not encoded into hard and fast rules. Your DM could just as easily never put any magic weapons the fighter can use. Ask any player of a size small character how fair treasure distribution is.
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No, they're not. They're an integral part of the system and are provided for in every treasure over a certain level. Nobody ever questions the fighter / cleric / rogue /etc 's need for their magic weapons or armor.Again I say - Exactly! - 'suggested'. No other class has features that are suggested. Every other class knows the abilities, spells and feats that will be available to them.If you want to put it that way, spells are 'suggested' the same way that magic items and magic weapons are 'suggested'.Umm.... just like spell acquisition is an integral part of the system. Scrolls are part of the random treasure tables, just the same as magic weapons are, spellbooks are often part of the treasure from wizards.
Here is the Combat gear for a wizard from a Paizo adventure I own:
Yes, I get to take scrolls or spellbooks as my share of treasure AND THEN I have to pay 100GP per level to scribe it.
People keep taking one part or the other and saying "see this is like all other classes" - unless you're taking both parts into account, and not using the suggestions or optional rules, you are missing the point.
If you have a gripe about treasure distribution then talk to your DM or whoever writes the modules you are running because treasure distribution is up to them, it is not encoded into hard and fast rules. Your DM could just as easily never put any magic weapons the fighter can use. Ask any player of a size small character how fair treasure distribution is.
If you'll reread my original post, my gripe is not with treasure distribution but with buying (taking as treasure) spells AND having to pay 100gp per level to write them into a book.
(I have responded to other people's asides and that was my mistake, because detractors have glommed onto them instead of paying attention to the main problem put forward).
Yes, I get to take scrolls or spellbooks as my share of treasure AND THEN I have to pay 100GP per level to scribe it.
People keep taking one part or the other and saying "see this is like all other classes" - unless you're taking both parts into account, and not using the suggestions or optional rules, you are missing the point.
Wizards have to buy (or take as treasure share) new spells. Then they have to pay an additional 100GP for each level of spell. Paying
When you get treasure it is very often in a form the players can not actually use. Fighters get weapons they really won't use much, they get new armor... etc. They have to cash those things in and then they get .50 on the GP then have to buy what they do want. Transforming treasure into a usable form has transaction costs for every class in the game.
If you'll reread my original post, my gripe is not with treasure distribution but with buying (taking as treasure) spells AND having to pay 100gp per level to write them into a book.
I was replying to a specific point you made.
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Yes, I get to take scrolls or spellbooks as my share of treasure AND THEN I have to pay 100GP per level to scribe it.
People keep taking one part or the other and saying "see this is like all other classes" - unless you're taking both parts into account, and not using the suggestions or optional rules, you are missing the point.
Wizards have to buy (or take as treasure share) new spells. Then they have to pay an additional 100GP for each level of spell. Paying
When you get treasure it is very often in a form the players can not actually use. Fighters get weapons they really won't use much, they get new armor... etc. They have to cash those things in and then they get .50 on the GP then have to buy what they do want. Transforming treasure into a usable form has transaction costs for every class in the game.
If you'll reread my original post, my gripe is not with treasure distribution but with buying (taking as treasure) spells AND having to pay 100gp per level to write them into a book.I was replying to a specific point you made.
I'm bowing out of this one. It's become too bogged down with other stuff and besides, I think the suggestion, in the "Wizard - Blessed Book" thread, about a geometric progression for copying costs is a better solution than messing with the scroll or spellbook mechanics.
Why don't we just give the fighter his magic weapons and armor for free too? After all he needs them just as much to be effective at higher levels.
Personally, I'm the opinion that the game runs more smoothly if everyone can cast 1/day Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment around level 5 (how they learn it is their backstory/character story).
A Fighter might have been trained to strike as if holding a magic weapon (no flaming damage, just straight weapon damage after all it is just Enhancement bonus).
Mostly, this solves low-wealth worlds (don't need to worry about WPL because they can at least hit the enemy)
See, I just gave the Fighter his magic armor and weapon for free. For addiotional abilities he must pay same as Wizard (stat boosters, etc).
Having played a wizard from level 1 to level 18, scribing costs and spell acquisition were only a problem at low levels. Scrapping the 100gp per level rule, and using the cost of scribing a scroll already reduces the cost, at low levels, of scribing spells into the spellbook, especially when you realize that cost to create is half the cost to purchase, so 0th-6.25, 1st-12.5, 2nd-75, 3rd-162.5, 4th-350, 5th-562.5, 6th-825, 7th-1137.5, 8th-1500, and 9th-1912.5, so while it saves substantial money at low levels, it roughly doubles the cost at the top end levels. Per the RAW, copying from an existing spellbook costs half, and there are ways to bypass the cost altogether.
No other class gains the breadth of special abilities provided to the Wizard by the ability to expand their versatility with a limited cost, within core. Unless, of course, you go outside of core, and start looking at expanding the cleric or druid spell list. The wizard/sorceror spell list is approximately 180% of the size of the core cleric or druid spell list and the bard, ranger and paladin lists are comical in comparison.
I consider it personally a necessary aspect of game balance that the ability to access the broadest set of special abilities within the game carries a cost. This is equitable, because no other character has as broad a selection of special abilities as the wizard. The only characters which beat the wizard are non-core, the archivist and the artificer, and powercreeping the wizard up to the point of the artificer or the archivist is a mistake.
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Yes, I get to take scrolls or spellbooks as my share of treasure AND THEN I have to pay 100GP per level to scribe it.
And then you get to sell the spellbook.
Do not forget that part. Once you have copied the particular spells you want, you no longer need the spellbook they are in.That means you are only paying the cost while still getting the gp value of the spellbook when you sell it afterwards.
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Yes, I get to take scrolls or spellbooks as my share of treasure AND THEN I have to pay 100GP per level to scribe it.And then you get to sell the spellbook.
Do not forget that part. Once you have copied the particular spells you want, you no longer need the spellbook they are in.
That means you are only paying the cost while still getting the gp value of the spellbook when you sell it afterwards.
Don't you realize you scribe spells from spellbooks gathered in treasure into your spellbook then burn it you don't sell it you'd make money that way.
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Don't you realize you scribe spells from spellbooks gathered in treasure into your spellbook then burn it you don't sell it you'd make money that way.
Why would you burn the spellbook instead of selling it?
And no, that is not how you make money.
The way to make money, as per the LG cheeseout, is to get a new spellbook and a blessed book. You add your new spells gained for a level to the spellbook, copy them immediately into your blessed book for 12.5 gp per spell level, then sell your spellbook for 50 gp per level of free spell in it, netting you 37.5 gp per spell level of your free spells. It is even cheesier if you go outside the OGL and use the rules for mastering foreign spellbooks from Complete Arcane. Then you just add your free spells to the new spellbook, and save a whole 5 gp on buying a new spellbook off the equipment list each time you pull this stunt.
Lather, rinse, repeat until your DM smacks you.
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Because the sarcasm tags fell off ;)Don't you realize you scribe spells from spellbooks gathered in treasure into your spellbook then burn it you don't sell it you'd make money that way.Why would you burn the spellbook instead of selling it?
Yeah I'm used to clicking on the sarcastic smiley on other boards. Guess I'm going to have to (sarcasm) (/sarcasm) lol.
Anyway, I personally don't see an issue. I've played several wizards both scribing and researching new spells I actually like the 100gp per page per level.
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I've never seen scribing costs pose a problem.
Maybe I'm alone on this, but my view is that every character -- wizard or other -- can and should negotiate with other PCs when it comes to reinvesting party resources. If it would help the party for the wizard to scribe a particular spell, the wizard can and should convince his teammates to contribute some coin. If the party is better served by the barbarian investing in mithral plate mail, the cleric crafting some healing wands, the whole party buying a flying carpet, etc., etc., they should figure that out.
I third the veto on this.
Wizards get two free spells a level added to the spellbook. If you want more, you get to pay for it. Besides, once you hit a certain level, you grab Craft Wondrous Item, learn secret page, make yourself a blessed book for 6,250 gp, and never worry about it again, until the book is full. Problem solved.
Wow ... I as a GM was worried about bankrupting the party wizard with new spells ** spoiler omitted ** but after reading about this little gem of a magic item, I am no longer too worried :) What a treasure! I don't know how I missed that one all these years.
No need to change the cost now, I agree.
You might have missed the item before, because the cost of copying spells was never a big deal before.
Yes it does. p166"...but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears."
See - yet more house rules used to reduce the cost.
Yeah I'm not going to argue with you, I'm simply going to point out page 167 of the BETA pathfinder rules, 2nd column 5th paragraph 3rd sentence:
"A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish fromthe scroll."
I never reduce costs on anything. The player wants it he can pay for it.
You might have missed the item before, because the cost of copying spells was never a big deal before.I third the veto on this.
Wizards get two free spells a level added to the spellbook. If you want more, you get to pay for it. Besides, once you hit a certain level, you grab Craft Wondrous Item, learn secret page, make yourself a blessed book for 6,250 gp, and never worry about it again, until the book is full. Problem solved.
Wow ... I as a GM was worried about bankrupting the party wizard with new spells ** spoiler omitted ** but after reading about this little gem of a magic item, I am no longer too worried :) What a treasure! I don't know how I missed that one all these years.
No need to change the cost now, I agree.
Of course checking the 3.0 book, the cost/time did not really change. I just never noticed it before. :(
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Yes it does. p166"...but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears."
See - yet more house rules used to reduce the cost.
Yeah I'm not going to argue with you, I'm simply going to point out page 167 of the BETA pathfinder rules, 2nd column 5th paragraph 3rd sentence:
"A spell that was being copied from a scroll does not vanish from
the scroll."I never reduce costs on anything. The player wants it he can pay for it.
That's actually incorrect and is specifically in the paragraph dealing with failing to copy from a scroll. It doesn't disappear if you fail to copy in your spellbook, but it does disappear per the paragraph above it.
"The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a
spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment"
So scroll cost is a part of it, if a wizard wants a particular spell. This is most evident when a new spell level is attained and a choice of four or five spells seems prudent. At low levels, this can be expensive and discourages experimentation. I'd suggest a small change that takes that into account.
Hm, so you are saying the text in the paragraph before which directly contridicts the paragraph after takes precendence, why?
Has JB ruled on this yet?
I just posted it in the errata thread. I'll bring it up again when we get to the magic section.
Until clarified then I'll go with the one that helps my players, since they are both in the book and directly contridict each other.
Beyond that:
It's only a direct cost of being a wizard if your DM won't let you use the perfectly valid tactic of looking at another wizard's spellbook for 50 gp per spell level, or doesn't let you take other wizard's spellbooks after you defeat them (or you don't fight wizards).
EDIT:
Ok someone just sat down with me and we did a read out loud, and I FINALLY see what you are saying about it disappearing. I still think some clarification on that could be useful though.