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Again...define 'most people' In my party i used as an example...2 of the 5 want to play clerics...that doesnt sound like 'most people don't to me...You've got two players who like to play Clerics, so therefore, nobody in the world needs to do anything for the people who *don't* have two players who like to play Clerics? Is that your logic here?
I don't have cancer. But I recognize that the people who *do* have cancer consider it something of a bummer, and I'm not going to say, 'Well, it's not a problem for *me,* so let's just try to talk over those people who *do* have a problem with it, so that nothing gets done about their situation.'
Do you really, honestly believe that if something isn't a problem for you, that it isn't a problem for anyone else? 'Cause that's a fairly extreme viewpoint.
Set, please stop trying to read more into my post than I say. Im not trying to be antagonistic. An Example is merely an example.
I will say again. Just because some people have one opinion, doesnt make that opinion valid. Just as if others have a varying opinion.
The fact I say there isnt a problem, doesnt mean theres not...just as the fact you say there is...doesnt mean there is.
The proof is in actual statistics, and not opinions.
so therefore I used an example to exemplify my point of view. I respect your opinion, but please stop trying to 'cause an argument' Its counter productive.
If you want to say theres a problem, instead of generalities...speak of instances.
I have played games without clerics, where the source of healing was a ranger or a paladin, or a rogue with use magic device...or a bard...or a druid....or a favored soul...or a shugenja...or a
c'mon, theres no lack of healing to be had. Its an individual problem if they cant view the cleric as something other than a box of band aids.
I put to any of you, run a game without a cleric, and let some of the others take on the role of combat medic. Its fun. and feasable.
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A party can get by without a cleric, just as a party can get by without a wizard. It's actually more difficult to compensate for the lack of a strong blaster/controller/troubleshooter arcane class than a strong buffer/healer divine class as the party goes up in levels. Various potions and other items can be used for buffs. Wands of cure light wounds are relatively cheap (15 gp per 1d8+1 hp of healing) and can be used by bards, paladins, rangers, or any character with a good Use Magic Device skill.
This topic was discussed in some detail last month here. The reluctance to playing a cleric is more of a player/party mindset issue than a mechanics issue. You can play a self-buffing combat cleric who is in the thick of melee, an archer cleric who stays at range, a (3.5) cleric with the Magic domain that uses arcane spell trigger items to act as a blaster/controller, etc. Many people, however, view the cleric only as a combat medic/healbot, which is a role that few enjoy.
Exactly!!!!
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The supply of clerics is not the problem, it's the demand for clerics that is the problem.
This is probably the best arguement Ive heard for what being said here.
Good point Dennis
Now my question is...."Do you think this is an actual problem, where parties cannot survive without a Cleric, or do you think it's a perceived problem, where parties don't believe there's a way to get healing without a cleric?"
Therein lies the rub methinks.
My 'opinion' is that others can fill the role, though inadequately. Just as Others can fill the roll of a Rogue, though lacking...you end up with a polish mine detector stepping on traps to find them...;)
But it can be done. Just as If you do not have a Wizard, you will need a rogue or bard to take use magic device to be able to use some wands to make up for the firepower ...or if you have a party of casters, they will need to invest some money in some items that will offset not having meatshields.
Its always a game of give and take. Its the mindset that everyone should be good at everything that has caused issues. Because thats unrealistic.
Though you do make a good point there dennis.
If the problem is one of perception (i.e., players perceive the role of cleric to be healbot regardless of the actual character), then how can we change the perception of cleric-as-healbot? Our answer needs to be one backed by the rules as well, as we're combating years of this kind of stereotyping.
My 'opinion' is that others can fill the role, though inadequately. Just as Others can fill the roll of a Rogue, though lacking...you end up with a polish mine detector stepping on traps to find them...;)
But it can be done. Just as If you do not have a Wizard, you will need a rogue or bard to take use magic device to be able to use some wands to make up for the firepower ...or if you have a party of casters, they will need to invest some money in some items that will offset not having meatshields.
My thought is that a party can get along fine without a cleric provided they accept the fact that 2-3 (or all) of the party members are going to take up a part of the healing burden. Players have gotten used to outsourcing their healing to the cleric that many who can heal (Druid/ Bard/ Paladin) don't bother and leave it to the healbot.
Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium help to some extent because there are better healing options for some of the other classes... Vitality is vastly superior to cure light wounds and a wand of vitality is by far the biggest bang/ buck healing in town. At lower levels the belt of healing (MiC) is decent if your DM allows it. Overall the key to a non-cleric party is just awareness that healing is slower and in general more expensive (in cash or party resources)
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If the problem is one of perception (i.e., players perceive the role of cleric to be healbot regardless of the actual character), then how can we change the perception of cleric-as-healbot? Our answer needs to be one backed by the rules as well, as we're combating years of this kind of stereotyping.
The biggest way to eliminate the perception is to not make the cleric so much better than everyone else at healing. The trend towards continually ramping up the clerics healing capabilities is just going to keep the cleric in demand as a healbot. Players like that they don't lose actions due to healing themselves... I think as long as one class is super good at healing players are going to want someone to take that role so they won't lose their actions in combat.
~wicked smile~ Oh, I will be GLAD to play the cleric!
Cleric to hurt PC - So, did you pay the tithes to my church?
Hurt PC to Cleric - No... ~groans in pain~
Cleric to Hurt PC - ~sighs~ Oh well, I will take out an extra 20% from your cut, in addition to your tithe, and donate it to my church to compensate for your lack of faith. ~heals the PC~
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I'm wondering because in 3.5 we already have trouble finding someone to play "cleric medic" and nobody in our group wants to do it all the time. Since the other classes are to be so much more interesting (sorcerer, rogue, fighter...) in Pathfinder and with the talk of giving only medium armor to clerics, who's "going to get stuck" playing the cleric? Let's make this a poll... Who is reading this and still planning to start a cleric in the new Pathfinder rules? Maybe I'm missing something... How do you make being a cleric less of a thankless job running around trying to touch everyone to keep them alive?
i continue playing the Cleric
still not playing the "medic" not in 2nd Edition, not in 3.x, not in Pathfinder... ok... now they have more chances to ehal due to positive channeling power... my party has a lot to thanks to Paizo (me to, it heals me too) because i almost never change spells to cure *** wounds unless its definitively needed.so i still play a cleric... actually i am playing a cleric this days and ai am very happy with her.
edit: there is also the fact that we continue using the spells from 3.0 before they nerfed the cleric and the wizard... otherwise the wizard won't be playing at all...
oh no no no, im totally with you on this one, my feat idea is to make clerics TOLERABLE, nothing do i hate more in this world that a barbarian who doesnt pay attention to a little thing called ARMOR CLASS, nothing sucks more than to wait every 15 minutes as the order of initiative goes around the table, and know that you one action is going to be, to heal some f-tard who yells "MEDIC!" I really am pissed at the lack of respect that most gamers hold their cleric (if they disrepect the Fighter he will no enter rooms first, but no good aligned character can refuse a injured comrade due to metagame issues) i got this guy in one of my games that does nothing but belittle my characters god,...
easy solution... 1st time my group saw wide eyed and in a way of "WTF are you doing using our healings on your buffs" when i began casting spells to prepare for battle... and yes they actually asked IC why i was doing that...
"my god is one of justice and war... so i fight in his name and bring down his foes... when the battle is over i will heal you with whatever is left or if its really grave i might do the same... now stop complaining and prepare for batle"
first and only time i heard that complain...
my cleric of kelemvor/wizard specialist: necromancer (she was N) actually used more healings... it was that or we all died... newbie DM sending 3 low level characters enemies that fell 2 of them andonly left the cleric able to heal them (they died too but it was too damn close)
there my complain was with the DM who actually thought like evil geniuses should... from thebeginning sending people who really could do the job...
per sesion there where 2 fights... i have to put them in form at least 3 of those 2 times... (no, i am not confused i wrote it correctly, don't ask...) that menacing and dire it was...
i never could use that char more than 4 sesiones... then that group and the one in the next table decided that it was my turn to DM... so i continued the aventure for 6 months... my now blind cleric/necromancer just following them to keep them in-line, alive and to kill undead (the only thing she could see where undead)
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Is there a hole bigger than a missing cleric? that is the important question. for those who have no problems with clerics in the game, does your group have another class that you have a hard time filling? i could imagine having a hard time filling the rogue slot (lets be honest though, it is not NEARLY as important of a role as a clerics) Fighter classes, could be rare in a cleric heavy game.
i am honestly interested in what role is hard to fill in your games (if your gaming group is perfect bugger off^^)
right now my cleric is more social based... she is a eclesiastic investigator, her forte is to deal with people, convince them, and read them when they lie to hear... she has at 3rd level 14 in sense motive and 9 in Diplomacy (lots of feats for this 2 areas and Wis 16, Cha 13)
she doesn't fight well but she is front fighter when a battle begins (+3 to hit, str 13, +4 with bless), has some decent armor, but not the best (AC 16 with scale mail & shield, +2 with shield of faith), and has some decent hp 24 (con 10)
the rest of a party is a wizard specialist necromancer, who likes to go close to his enemies, unless he is scaring them, a paladin who is also a front fighter, and a bard who helps buffing and attacks from behind
we had other players and other characters, but this are what is left... the rest where mostly ranged combat so the paladin and the cleric where the usual ones in the front...
the only character who has been put down in the floor... twice... actually is my cleric... one with 2 hits they sent her to -2 (1st level) and in 2nd level they surprised her with a dagger on her... (but she was told there was someone behind so no skeak attack) 4 full hps... and a fortitud save that with my low con i totally failled :P
yeah. I understand. As I mentioned. I really think it has more to do with fewer examples in heroic fantasy than anything else...Folks like to play roles that 'jump out' at them...The Tired Mercenary Fighter, The Barbarian Hero, The Plucky Rogue, The Sneaky Ranger, The Heroic Knightly Paladin....Its hard to find a 'role' for the Cleric...
the cleric is based on the Templar :P
I have always admired the templarsso for me there is no better inspiration
also i have been always big fan of Dungeons $ Dragons, and D&D 2nd Edition Cleric...
so i can only say i love the class since i first ladi my eyes on it... (also the D&D picture was of a gorgeous black and curly haired cleric wearing a tight breastplate)
off the cuff suggestion a bit of everything.
1st level spell (can be cast for every level up to 4th). "Ritual blessing" (Lame name I know)
duration 24 hours
cleric prays with up to wis bonus + level allies (cannot be opposite to gods alignment or within 1 place of opposite gods alignment)and casts the spell. It has 2 effects.
a)for the duration anyone who participated in the prayer (including the cleric) may 1/day touch a holy symbol worn or held by the cleric speak the words "Blessed be 'insert deity name'" and recieve a cure light wounds as if cast by the cleric. It is a standard action to activate and requires verbal only.
b) for the duration whenever a cleric casts a spell or channels positive enrrgy, the additional positive energy allows the cleric to nominate a spell participant within close range to recieve healing equivalent to a half strength cure light wounds
The participants may only have one ritual blessing per spell level in effect at a time.
---My intention is to -make people have to heal themselves a bit, allow the cleric some low level free healing while doing other actions, make those other beggars get some religion!
As I have an abiding love of all mythologies and pantheons, and I love playing clerics. It gives me a chance to strongly relate my particular belief system based on my PC's deity dujour.
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~wicked smile~ Oh, I will be GLAD to play the cleric!
Cleric to hurt PC - So, did you pay the tithes to my church?
Hurt PC to Cleric - No... ~groans in pain~
Cleric to Hurt PC - ~sighs~ Oh well, I will take out an extra 20% from your cut, in addition to your tithe, and donate it to my church to compensate for your lack of faith. ~heals the PC~
so very LG
its not LN... you heal them before actully charging them :P
LN cleric of Avadar would charge first :P
lol except is mentioned that clerics of avadar don't usually charge party members, but aside of it, they charge always in their churches :P
actually i like the "Ritual Blessing"
sounds interestingbut what happens with those who believe in other religion different than yours?
I reckon in a big pantheon world like most RPG worlds there would be a fair bit of tolerance. IMO in Golarion saying a little prayer to Desna if you are a Gozreh worshipper is fine. Presumably if you are asking a priest of Desna to cast a curing spell on you you are asking for them to bless/call for divine help etc for you as well- presumably you dont object to the clerics beliefs so much you do not want to adventure with them.
Where there is a lack of tolerance the people in the group likely worship or the same deity-- or they just miss out on the bounty.
If you want to play an atheist- fine you miss out on this boon- you still can get the normal healing.
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So you were healing after fights and not during them, correct?My Elven cleric with a longbow and a reluctance to stand directly behind the fighter when he could be, oh, 80ft away, was probably my favourite character.
My love of playing clerics is a great relief to the people i play with.
Yep, absolutely. With the occasional exception, naturally.
"my god is one of justice and war... so i fight in his name and bring down his foes... when the battle is over i will heal you with whatever is left or if its really grave i might do the same... now stop complaining and prepare for batle"
One way to cure the perception of cleric as healbot :)
This perception (cleric casting combat spells/ buffs takes away from their healing) is why Jason put channel positive energy in there for healing. I have mixed feelings about it because it simultaneously helps fix the issue and reinforces the whole healbot motif...
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My next cleric will follow Wee Jas or something, and use inflict spells.
Take the Magic Domain so you can use a Wand of Spectral Hand. Combined with the Inflict spells (and maybe the Death Domain), it's a ton of fun. Following it up by PrCing into Master of Shrouds is just mean...
Stock up on the Wands of Cure Light Wounds (or Vigor, if it's available). I always play the Cleric, and rarely feel the need to heal in combat, unless the character was *built around that.*
And if I wanted to build a character around healing, I'd be more likely to play a Psychic, from Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (also printed in their Advanced Players Guide). That's a way funner healer, alternating between Drain Vitality and Psychic Healing.
If the problem is one of perception (i.e., players perceive the role of cleric to be healbot regardless of the actual character), then how can we change the perception of cleric-as-healbot? Our answer needs to be one backed by the rules as well, as we're combating years of this kind of stereotyping.
Play a cleric yourself, make it a neutral cleric following a neutral deity/pathos and using negative energy. Take something like the travel domain (free movement in a jam is always a plus) and death domain (bleed effects are nasty at least in my opinion) or destruction (melee classes with any sort of crit range will love you). Assuming typical stats for a cleric now (Wis and Chr have priority) figure maybe a chr mod of +2, doable with using the low fantasy point buy while still keeping your wis at a comparable number (14 and 14, 10's every where else), you have decent save DC's as well as some bonus spells/channels. Take selective channeling (which allows you to not effect up to 2 others besides yourself in the burst) and if you are human take extra channeling (bringing you up to 7 channel attempts per day).
Now wade into combat with your morning star, medium armor and heavy shield right (reasonable first level gear) next to the f-tard that says your god is an imaginary being, blow a few channel negative energy bursts (assuming a party of 4, f-tard not being exempted from the burst) which will likely bring him dangerously close to dropping and possibly dropping the opponents in the encounter (at lower levels when things tend to have only a hit die or two, 1d6 repeatedly can be deadly even with an occasional save). If the f-tard asks you what the hell was going on, just reply "Apparently my imaginary friend thinks you shouldn't exist." You haven't even used a spell yet and can do that at least another couple of times that day. At lower levels you make the arcane caster look bad in terms of blasting, low level encounters will generally not have any resistance to negative energy (and if they are undead you might even get a free minion -or several at mid to higher levels- from channeling, turn them against one another) and there is no spell resistance to worry about as it is a supernatural ability.
So back to playing for the glory... Why exactly AREN'T you playing a cleric lol? Now this is all within the current rules of Pathfinder, nothing extra, no splat books, all core. So the rules do back up a non-healbot cleric, its the players themselves who either aren't familiar with the class rules, are so jaded as to not try, or just don't want to attempt to defend the decision to not be the healbot. I'd have to say it isn't the rules fault, it is the players themselves who are to blame.
I generally HATE playing clerics, but I'm playing one that is palatable to me in my current group. I understand that many people hate Tome of Battle, but I have a Cleric of Wee Jas 4/Crusader 1/Church Inquisitor 1 which has been the bomb.Crusader strikes and stances let me do some in combat healing, and I have a stance lets me heal 2 hp every time I land a blow. I also took the Healing Touch feat from Complete Champion- it's a reserve feat that allows me to heal by touch, without expending a spell, a certain number of hp up to half the character's max hp. I do that after the battle though. So I can still cast most of my spells the way I choose, and get a good amount of healing in there, without feeling like a heal-bot.
I also traded out the Inquisitor domain for a Domain feat from Complete Champion which lets me excel in combat- its the Knowledge Domain feat- which gives me pluses to hit and damage based upon the ranks I have in knowledge skills about that particular creature. Which is legal according to Complete Champion. With those options, I am doing substantial damage in combat but still fulfilling my clerical role. I plan on taking this PC into Ruby Knight Vindicator upon 8th level, which will continue my spell casting, allowing me to heal well, and give me more maneuvers and stances to excel in battle.
Unfortunately it sounds like you are using more than a couple splat books in your games to get what you want. Quite a few of the people on these boards are usually limited in what they can use (might even say the majority) either because they don't have access to the books, the DM has a specific set of books allowed or for balance reasons/etc use core only. That is not to say your input is not wanted or "wrong" but I think the OP's inquiry was probably more geared towards the "core" rule set and your reply a tad bit off topic. That being said, a Bo9S character built right could quite easily alleviate the need for a cleric in most circumstances like you have said. The most problematic circumstance for that type of build is when large heals (like the Heal spell) back to back are required.
When I first read the Complete Champion, I thought the reserve feat for healing was gold and is one of the few reasons I actually bought the book. I looked at it as the first official attempt to fix the heal-bot niche of the cleric. Being able to hold just one of your highest level spells to be able to do a decent amount of healing indefinitely with the drawback of never healing higher than half total hit points was a good thing in my opinion. You could make the decision to continue on or not and as you never really know if an encounter will be the "big one" there was still that suspense and worry as you were only at half hit points. You could keep the others alive during combat (when orisons weren't unlimited) and at the end of the day before resting you'd all be at half just in case the nasty random encounter in the middle of the night happened.
The knowledge domain feat you are talking about is practically broken using pathfinders new skill rules. The only thing that saved it prior was that there was a significant investment (pretty much all your skill points) and half max ranks if you wanted to use a single cross class knowledge skill. The ability is based on a skill check (the bonus builds on a DC starting at "X" and incrementing by 5's) and getting multiple stacking bonus adjustments for skills is pretty easy, even magic items that grant a skill bonus are really cheap. At low levels it isn't really that hard to get something like a +10 or more to a skill check which could grant you anywhere from a +2 to a +5 to hit and to damage depending on your skill check roll. You will hit more often and harder than a fighter of equal level in just about all cases. Congratulations, you now have a cleric with an effective base attack bonus equal to or greater than the fighter, you are dealing more damage and all it cost you were 1 or 2 skill points to get. You can say it is situational but once a campaign is in swing and you have an idea of the theme (IE what you will see most of the time as opponents and thus which knowledge skill/s to take) that argument falls apart. Anyways that is why I believe it to be broken using Pathfinder, if the DC incremented on 10's it would be much less so.
Now please note that I am not knocking your play style or anything like that. Just trying to point out that the more splat books you have, well... The more anything is possible and the more enjoyable it can be to play *just the right character* that you envisioned because all the regular core rules are being bent and/or broken in away to make your character more like what you wanted. I mean would you have wanted to play the cleric if you were restricted to just the Pathfinder core rules/srd? Would you have the same amount of enjoyment from playing that cleric? I believe that is the OP's original intent. I should also point out that you are probably pretty lucky to have a DM that does allow the mixing and matching of all the rule books as you want and I might be a tad bit jealous ;P
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For what it is worth, in our group we tend to have a lack of wizards/sorcerers. The limited amount of spells per day when you could play a hybrid and have more "stamina" as it were and still play in melee if the $*&t hits the fan as well as pop a wand for big booms in emergencies is probably what contribute to that. By NO means am I saying that the casters need a bump but I think our group still sees them as a weakness in the lower to mid levels and so we stay away from them. Not that I ever was a big arcane caster fan to tell the truth.
Take the Magic Domain so you can use a Wand of Spectral Hand. Combined with the Inflict spells (and maybe the Death Domain), it's a ton of fun. Following it up by PrCing into Master of Shrouds is just mean...
Magic domain in Pathfinder no longer gives you silly access to spell completion or spell trigger magic items. Just to clarify, as I pretty sure you know it but I don't want anyone else to get confused about it.
And if I wanted to build a character around healing, I'd be more likely to play a Psychic, from Green Ronin's Psychic's Handbook (also printed in their Advanced Players Guide). That's a way funner healer, alternating between Drain Vitality and Psychic Healing.
I had ordered it (The Psychic's Handbook) as soon as I heard about it, I tend to buy all the psionic/psychic stuff I can get my hands on (Dreamscarred Press, the Ultimate Prestige Books, and even the other less known 3rd party) just incase there are some gems as psionics and the like tend to get little love in the mainstream books. After I read it through a few times I brought it over to our regular DM's to take a look at it as looked promising and wanted to give it a try but it is a vastly different rules set. After a few weeks I don't think he looked at it besides skimming so I took it back so I could refresh the rules etc. Eventually he asked to look at it again and I brought it back over. Now we have an NPC psychic cause he loves the rules for it and after trying to find it, he found out it is out of print and told me "I'll pay you for this copy as you aren't getting it back and I know you have a second copy at home". If you are interested in it (Paizo's store link for) The Advanced Players Handbook is worth every penny for the psychic class alone. As a healer however I don't think it can measure up to the cleric as you are limited to healing a person once per hour but I think there was a PrC for healing so maybe that changed the rules for the psychic healing power.
Lots of stuff.
Actually, you misquoted. I'm not the one with the Crusader, my character is over on the "drawing the Pathfinder PC" thread. My current group is much lighter on splat-books than my previous one. I'm bringing the most with UA, Complete Divine, Arms & Equipment, and PHB2 (Cloistered Cleric, Contemplative, belt of endurance, and the Sacred Healing and Purification feats). The current DM doesn't care to haul tons of books to a game, nor allow oodles of stuff because it's too easy to get broken characters. Also, it's her homebrew world, which she has been carefully building and designing, so I understand not wanting to add just anything.
I personally believe that if the cleric's buffing us, then the cleric's preventing damage, so fewer cure spells are needed. Therefore, I don't view clerics at healbots. They're the best at healing, but we tend to believe in spreading that around, just in case the cleric manages to roll a 1 on the wrong saving throw. This group also has a paladin, so there's redundancy. But I also admit I set myself up on purpose to be support/buff/healbot and not so much on the front line (not with my AC 22 and BAB+7 for a 14th level character). I deliberately CHOSE that role, because this is my 1st 3.E cleric. I've normally avoided clerics in 3.E due to the points we're discussing. I've also seen it happen at our table (it=no one wants to be the cleric), or the variant (I want to be buffing and doing stuff, not just the healer).
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How about asking people who *used* to play a cleric but stopped because they don't find it interesting or fun anymore? What could bring them back? I'm also afraid that the new rules will push more people away from playing clerics because, the new classes are even more fun to play.
maybe ask Paizo to stop nerfing the magic and return to 3.0 magic which was more decent, worked longer and gave the cleric more options
i continue playing in my current party because we FORCED the DM to return magic to 3.0 :P
it was not a question of "please, can we?"
it was a "its the only way we are playing" demand
One group gets together and no one wants to play a cleric the group breaks down and tries to figure out who's playing the cleric.
The supply of clerics is not the problem, it's the demand for clerics that is the problem.
one of our games has 3 characters: a bard (who believes herself captain and works like that, no minstrel... thanks), a conjurer (who is what some would call our tank), and the rogue (needs to attack at a distance with daggers or is useless in combat, really)
the DM asked what were we going to do without a Cleric, we answered "evade combat, surprise enemies, be smart... and in the very very bad circumstance we get maulled... the Captain has Cure light wounds" :P
i still have not used it
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While historic examples of clerics exist, newer players might not be aware of them and/or not interested in studying history in order to build a character. Common media has made fantasy wizards, fighters, rogues, rangers, etc. well-known but not broadcast as many clerics to the general population, making the task of playing a cleric for newer players potentially more difficult (this a theory only).
not historical but Damien Vryce, main character from the Coldfire Trilogy, is an excellent example of priest... ok Warrior Priest... he is not a paladin, and his magic is all about healing... he does a great cleric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire_Trilogy
For me, this is my first 3.E cleric, and by deliberately choosing to be buffer/healbot, I can't be upset with others for expecting that role of me, thus (hopefully) increasing my satisfaction with my character. But those extra skill points don't hurt either, let me tell you . . . .
i agree with this, 2 extra skill points to cleric and fighter would do a lot to enhance what they do, and give them more substance
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"my god is one of justice and war... so i fight in his name and bring down his foes... when the battle is over i will heal you with whatever is left or if its really grave i might do the same... now stop complaining and prepare for batle"One way to cure the perception of cleric as healbot :)
This perception (cleric casting combat spells/ buffs takes away from their healing) is why Jason put channel positive energy in there for healing. I have mixed feelings about it because it simultaneously helps fix the issue and reinforces the whole healbot motif...
well my fellow players are happy with the positive energy channeling
it has helped in a few combats... well AFTER the combat!but then at least a couple of times my cleric is the one needing help...
she is the only character brought down during combat :P
so we need extra healing capabilities... the bard help in this, while we are in town weknow mommy Zantus (a cleric used by the GM in the adventure) would rush to heal her...
it makesme worry out of the city :P, but meh... she still would have a banner and rush to the frontlines :P
but Dennis you are right, the perception from the Cleric being a Healbot comes from the rules and years of mixed perception
its is worse when they force a class only as healer... i liked the idea in warcraft RPG that makes the Cleric and Paladin as prestigue classes comming from the Priest and Warrior classes...
but your priest is only healing, its squeshy, when one of my players who was always a cleric lover saw it... he decided he didn't want to play Warcraft RPG at all... not just not the healer... he hated the game for doing that to the cleric.
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You know why no-one ever want's to play the cleric? and this has probably been said here before or elsewhere but repitition sometimes is all your left with. Because the cleric winds up having to heal people more than doing their own thing. The solution is open up healing to other classes, that's not going to happen though, I'll give you an example of why. When I posted on how the heal skills treat deadly wounds ability sucks. Ninety percent of the responses to a proposal to make it a d4's worth of healing based on the check either a) got ignored and the thread died
or
b) got shot down because it was too close to magical healing and steped on the clerics toes.
I'm pretty sure that any attempt to fix healing will get the exact same situation
Which means your stuck needing a divine caster to play your healbot. that's not going to be a problem that goes away, and I'm tired of trying to argue against it.
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You know why no-one ever want's to play the cleric? and this has probably been said here before or elsewhere but repitition sometimes is all your left with. Because the cleric winds up having to heal people more than doing their own thing. The solution is open up healing to other classes, that's not going to happen though, I'll give you an example of why. When I posted on how the heal skills treat deadly wounds ability sucks. Ninety percent of the responses to a proposal to make it a d4's worth of healing based on the check either a) got ignored and the thread died
or
b) got shot down because it was too close to magical healing and steped on the clerics toes.I'm pretty sure that any attempt to fix healing will get the exact same situation
Which means your stuck needing a divine caster to play your healbot. that's not going to be a problem that goes away, and I'm tired of trying to argue against it.
mmm didn't say it
but i will add that roll could only be done once per dayyou can't force the body to recover that much
but no letal damage wouldbehealed immediately after a Heal Check
the idea is good
also wizards have alchemy
healing balms are good, and cheaper than potions
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I am currently playing a cleric in our Pathfinder Beta playtest and I have some issues with the changes to the rules that affect clerics. The biggest kick in the gut to clerics is making the old Concentration skill a part of the Spellcraft skill. Being able to cast in combat is more important to clerics than it is to pretty much any other spellcasting class since they are expected to be able to take a front line role in battle. Now, in order to have a decent chance of making a concentration check, they need to have a respectable INT score. Since a fighting cleric already needs high WIS (for spellcasting), high CHA (for channeling), and high CON and STR (for melee fighting), adding the necessity of a high INT as well really spreads a cleric pretty thin. Pathfinder designers, I beg of you, please consider restoring the Concentration skill.
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Rognar
i hope they don't change it back
i prefer to have skills so i have to push up Int and ignore Con, hoping the good fort saving throw helps when in need
so i have a better Spellcraft than i will ever have Concentration
the skill consolidation of this 2, is one of the few benefit the cleric gets...
and yes... still my cleric is frontliner... just she uses to cast before and after battle, she hasn't need for the time being to cast in the middle of one... but i believe she will do properly (musthave something around +6 in her roll for 3rd level, just 1 rank, in the same circumstances concentration wouldbe around +4)
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Rognar
i hope they don't change it backi prefer to have skills so i have to push up Int and ignore Con, hoping the good fort saving throw helps when in need
so i have a better Spellcraft than i will ever have Concentration
the skill consolidation of this 2, is one of the few benefit the cleric gets...
and yes... still my cleric is frontliner... just she uses to cast before and after battle, she hasn't need for the time being to cast in the middle of one... but i believe she will do properly (musthave something around +6 in her roll for 3rd level, just 1 rank, in the same circumstances concentration wouldbe around +4)
I find I rarely have time to cast much of anything before battle. In any case, what you describe is simply a means to avoid the problem by not casting in battle at all. That's a reasonable approach, but it doesn't appear to support your contention that combining Concentration and Spellcraft in any way benefits the cleric class.
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I find I rarely have time to cast much of anything before battle. In any case, what you describe is simply a means to avoid the problem by not casting in battle at all. That's a reasonable approach, but it doesn't appear to support your contention that combining Concentration and Spellcraft in any way benefits the cleric class.
idon't have to spent 2 points per level to understand my enemies spells and be able to cast in melee?
considering the cleric has 2 skill points + int mod per level
it is indeed a bonus
you can also get "skill focus: spellcraft" feat and you get both the benefits on spellcasting and understanding magic, and can use also "combat casting" feat and get an extra +4 bonus to this rolls... un total its a +10 (class skill, skill focus,combat casting), plus whatever you put in intelligence and theranks you have... for a 1st level human cleric he can do pretty well castingin the middle of combat even with 12 Int (+12 to every roll of casting in combat)
the conjurer in one party is going for that after spell focus, greater spell focus, skill focus then combat casting (using an elf so the bonus to sepllcraftmaxes it)
Actually, you misquoted....Lots of stuff.
Sorry about the misquote, dangers of reading/posting while working. But the point still stands, would playing a pure core cleric be as fun/rewarding to you (or whoever) as the cleric you are playing with the extra material. My gut would say that most of the posters here would say "no", as I remember converting my 2nd favorite character from 2E to 3E and the characters abilities were certainly nerfed in comparison but I still wasn't a healbot (though I will admit I was much worse off in melee lol). However there was definitely a leveling of the playing field amongst the characters which was a good thing for balance in game. It also wouldn't stop me from playing a cleric, even just a core cleric. The core cleric has alot to offer besides the shoe horned healbot role that the majority of the people seem to be narrowed in on. Like you said you chose that role but you could have chosen a number of others as well. And yes a cleric will excel at healing if built that way, but it doesn't have to be the healbot, it has buffs and offensive capabilities that are just as effective (if not more as I explained in the previous post) as its healing.
If you (not you specifically ;) - I mean anyone who might want to play a cleric) don't want to be the healer, make a cleric that isn't a healbot, the options are there and they aren't suboptimal builds. I'm not saying don't keep other members from dying. If someone is unconscious and bleeding, spont. cast cure light wounds to get them up and mobile if you can, if you can't keep one memorized "just in case". However, if the party can't understand that it isn't your purpose in life to keep them at full health, that is a problem that you must deal with either in or out of game with the other players. It has nothing to do with the class mechanics. Do you tell the melee character across the table where to move and who to attack? Or do you tell the blaster sitting next to you what spells to learn and what to cast/where to target? Why do they have this perceived ability to tell you "just heal"?
A party of any composition is viable, it just means different tactics. I have played several games where there is no druid or cleric, heck even some with out a healing spell available to the players. It means items, items, items. Potions, Rogue/warlock with UMD, belt of healing, something - anything that works goes. Some challenges will be more difficult, others will be less, it's the game. Hell one of the most ridiculous ways of healing I ever used was a +1 spell storing small (well tiny) sized weapon (so it did 1 point of damage) that had a mid level cure spell that my rogue carried around. I paid for the spell to be cast into it and the first time we ran into an emergency I stabbed a party member with it. Everyone else was like "what the hell" but the tank got healed we won and we went on our merry way. It was easy to conceal, worked in silence, no chance of failure and it was reusable and available when we didn't have any other options.
Yes it relied on a divine caster, but no one in the group had to play that caster. It used rules already established in the PHB (buying a 3rd level spell in the equipment area) and was available for everyone to use. I'm just trying to show how the game doesn't revolve around a characters divine caster healing everyone. If your party/gaming group believes that then it is up to you to show them differently, not complain about having to be the healbot when you play a cleric. The cleric class doesn't have to change so that it isn't considered a healbot, the perception of the class needs to change, and the best way to do that is by playing the cleric as "Not the Healer" and showing how effective it can be in other roles.
We had a cleric in one of our groups (waaaay back in the early 80s) who worshipped a god of war. According to her belief system, the greatest honor anyone could achieve was to die in battle. Therefore, she refused to heal anyone during a battle, as that would be an affront to her god. She had an absolute blast playing her, and our characters became just a little afraid of her - she was a little over-enthusiastic when it came to 'helping people along' to their reward. If you survived the combat, she'd heal you, but she absolutely refused to condone resurrections, raise dead (and the like). I've never laughed so hard as when our fighter bought it and she refused to allow him to be raised. It was an heroic death and he'd earned his reward, who were we to deny him his place of honor?
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In my group of five, I have two clerics. Since my players are all experienced, they understand the power of clerics and I have to work to keep them from making a all druid/cleric party. To handle the concentration skill change, the clerics all carry wands. They also work with the party mage as soon as possible to create various custom healing resources (rods of healing are popular atm). The other members of the party are a wizard, a paladin and a rogue. And, you guessed it, the paladin and rogue also use magic items for healing.
In my group, healing is everyone's responsibility. Every member is expected to have several healing potions, a wand or other healing item if they can use it, and defensive items (like invisibility potions, blur potions or what have you) to get clear of the fight long enough to stay alive and get help from one of the clerics. The clerics are more than ready to use spontaneous heals (well one is, the other worships a god of war and usually will only tap you with a wand time permitting) if they feel the fight is under control or if the one needing the heal has run low on self-healing magic. At the conclusion of an adventure, everyone is expected to replenish their healing items (typically potions), and all party members first contribute to the purchasing of wands to ensure that the clerics, the rogue and the paladin have access to healing before buying anything they may need. If a member "selfishly" spends all his gold on fancy new personal gear and doesn't contribute to the wand fund or stock up on potions, he doesn't get healed unless the cleric is looking for something to do mid-battle.
People don't want to play the cleric because they let the other members of their group dictate how the cleric should be played. When next faced with a "who's going to play the cleric" question, simply don't play with one (it can be done, trust me). The party will then develop strategies for healing that don't involve the cleric. This will teach them that they can survive and how to manage an important aspect of their character. When someone does play a cleric, the expectation will be set that self-healing is expected, with the cleric around for emergencies only.
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idon't have to spent 2 points per level to understand my enemies spells and be able to cast in melee?considering the cleric has 2 skill points + int mod per level
it is indeed a bonus
That applies to all spellcasters, not just clerics. In fact, it benefits wizards more than anyone else since they only have to max out one ability. Sorcerers, clerics, bards and druids are all forced to spread their ability scores around.
Personally, as a cleric, I would consider spending skill points on Spellcraft a waste. I rarely find it useful to know I'm about to be hit by a fireball, since there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
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Personally, as a cleric, I would consider spending skill points on Spellcraft a waste. I rarely find it useful to know I'm about to be hit by a fireball, since there's nothing I can do about it anyway.
Dispell is always a good option
or "DUCK!"and you forget enemy clerics and druids... one of my players complained that he never got to use his spells in combat... or do anything... but it was because he coutnered my evil clerics spells... ALWAYS!
but rognar, lets agree in which we disagree...
i always hated "concentration" as an skill because i thought that ebsides a few situations its felt useless
also there was athread where we atalked about giving spellcraft mod bonus based in what type of magic que character uses... a cleric should be as good using his spells as a wizard of the same elvel, with the same control and understanding... so should be a sorcerer or druid, etc
No doubt the Cleric can be a fun character to play, equally interesting and "powerful" as any other.
However, a group without a cleric will feel the "hole" much more than a group without a rogue, or a group without ranger, or any other class I should think.
While most character classes have a way of dealing significant damage one way or another, not many have the tools to heal as significantly as the cleric. True, druids and paladins can heal (and to a lesser extent bards and rangers too), but the cleric is by far THE superior healer. The difference is especially true at lower levels. The 1 level lag between druid and cleric does not make a huge difference; spontaneous cure spells does. Not having to put (precious) resources aside "in case" makes the whole difference.
I know the "problem" is in the resource management and that "played carefully" the druid is virtually just as good, but that's exactly my point: the cleric does not have to care about resource management when healing is involved.
As much as I'm not sold to Healing Surges, SAGA and 4th edition did find a solution to solve that issue... I'd encourage Pathfinder to find its own.
'findel
My groups have had mixed levels of interest in playing clerics. A lot of people seem to be stuck with the idea of clerics being heal-bots, though. What I have seen is, not many people seem to be able to play clerics very well.
1. The character's choices being taken away, consistently, by others (at this point, you can feel like you're playing a puppet).
2. Not getting enough respect, game-wise: demands, expectations. Immature players.
DnD is about being a hero. Many players <3 to play support, but it's less fun when it's "expected" and less fun when it's "forced." I think we're in agreement, here.
Now, how to fix it?
The following might help:
1. Give clerics a real, tangible role in the game world. Put them in positions of IC influence, but temper that with IC responsibility. Churches have organizations. Let them wield some of that respect and authority in-game.
2. Be sure and speak with your players about "demands." Too many good players burn out because of this. We need to start making others aware that these demands are not OK. They, in fact, hurt the game. Put it in the DM advice section in the DMG, or just start proliferating it on these boards. Or, take it to heart and remind others at your local gaming table. Show them this post.
3. Be sure the cleric has opportunities to do things other than heal. Pathfinder's changes did alot to fix this, so I think we can safely check this off. Way to go, Jason!
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Crusader strikes and stances let me do some in combat healing, and I have a stance lets me heal 2 hp every time I land a blow.
So you keep a troll in a sack, and go whack it with a stick between each fight?
Or everybody takes a level and slaps each other for 1hp a few hundred times a day?
And I thought they ruled that Cure Minor Wounds at will was unbalanced?
We need to go back to 2E and bring back the specialist cleric rules and allow the player to customize his/her cleric. want a combat heavy templar, choose a war diety. faith based healer, choose more benign god. a lot of discusion has been fueled by prestige class debate, i would like to see some discussion on variant classes to fill campaign niches. clerics can be anything from a holy warrior to a humble preacher. getting back to the point, maybe give an xp award for healing and buffing and have the npcs show more respect for the person that can heal why be respected or feared when you can be loved by all
What's Wrong with playing a Cleric?
Some of my best friends are clerics.
How about asking people who *used* to play a cleric but stopped because they don't find it interesting or fun anymore? What could bring them back? I'm also afraid that the new rules will push more people away from playing clerics because, the new classes are even more fun to play.maybe ask Paizo to stop nerfing the magic and return to 3.0 magic which was more decent, worked longer and gave the cleric more options
i continue playing in my current party because we FORCED the DM to return magic to 3.0 :P
it was not a question of "please, can we?"
it was a "its the only way we are playing" demandOne group gets together and no one wants to play a cleric the group breaks down and tries to figure out who's playing the cleric.
The supply of clerics is not the problem, it's the demand for clerics that is the problem.
one of our games has 3 characters: a bard (who believes herself captain and works like that, no minstrel... thanks), a conjurer (who is what some would call our tank), and the rogue (needs to attack at a distance with daggers or is useless in combat, really)
the DM asked what were we going to do without a Cleric, we answered "evade combat, surprise enemies, be smart... and in the very very bad circumstance we get maulled... the Captain has Cure light wounds" :P
i still have not used it
i see who wears the pants in your gaming circle, the players. when you have a pushover DM you can get away with about ANY party composition, and i think thats the case here. if the DM customizes the game to be focused on farming, then its okay that everyone plays commoners. you DM looks starved to run and you all look "eh" about the game.
3.0 buffs were wrong. The buffs lasted to long, and some spells were unacceptably unbalanced (im looking at you haste) bull strength lasted how long!?
I have only one answer to the cleric/bandaid problem. dont let them heal in combat + scale down combat. Pathfinder classes are supposed to be +1ECL over what most modules are written for, so have the have to make a difficult spellcraft role to cure someone in combat (in combat heals are so video game rpg anyways)
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see who wears the pants in your gaming circle, the players. when you have a pushover DM you can get away with about ANY party composition, and i think thats the case here. if the DM customizes the game to be focused on farming, then its okay that everyone plays commoners. you DM looks starved to run and you all look "eh" about the game.
3.0 buffs were wrong. The buffs lasted to long, and some spells were unacceptably unbalanced (im looking at you haste) bull strength lasted how long!?
I have only one answer to the cleric/bandaid problem. dont let them heal in combat + scale down combat. Pathfinder classes are supposed to be +1ECL over what most modules are written for, so have the have to make a difficult spellcraft role to cure someone in combat (in combat heals are so video game rpg anyways)
the game is done by 2 sides, the DM and the Players
i always ask my players what they want to seein the game or what type of adventure they want to playfor example i want to GM a city campaign, so i asked my players what they expect and want to see
1)wants to make a swashbuckling heroine like his character in fable 2
2)wants to play a mix of Garret (Thief) and Altair (Assassin's Creed)
3)wants to play a guard ( 3 Musketeers)
this i asked, this i supposed from the beggining (before asking) and hoped for, now with this information i can craft an story... i dislike the idea (personaly) of just putting an adventure (published or not) that disregard my players character concepts... this means i don't care for the time they took to think in a character and create it, not would i care for their fun
i understand people have no time to write or think adventures, but at least one should put an adventure that goes with the characters or modify it enough that they feel at home... otherwise i feel the game is soulless.
and yes my table have years playing with 3.0 magic rules
ok yes Haste is abusive, still a fireball is abuseive... awish is abusive, dimensional door is unfair... so does meteor swarm... magic is not exactly fair...
bull's strenght duration is 1/level
what does character do now if they need extra strenght? they go to a magic shop and buys a magic item... that works 24/7... THIS i consider abuse... you take a character features (which my 3.9 cleric used to buff himself and other characters for the day) and force players to buy or craft magic items
this is one option i HATE, while i can think of a game with magic... the fact of having magic stores like it is Wallmart just sickens me
Adam... while i agree that i won't stop to heal a character unless its precarious... your option that ifone charactersi dying and ask for a hard DC means that character could die... if you as DM and your players agree to this, its ok
normal magic healing in the middle of combat is as hard for the cleric as a fireball for a wizard (which is so videogame like :P)... also its an spell not a Heal skill roll.
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i totally love homemade games, and i have no hate for it at all. you just cant take those games and use them in a playtest. it is an uncontrolled element. of course any rule could work if placed in the proper setting. I could play in a game where my someones character was the prince of the nation, and i let him have a feat called "Noble Heir". and I let this feat start him of with two hundred thousand gold for equipment (daddy aint going to let princey out of his sight without proper protection) a body guard thats 6th level, and a +10 to diplomacy rolls with everyone within his nation ( well loved king) it could work perfectly for my homebrew game, but doesnt really help this Alpha test. you just got to be careful were you are pulling you information from ( i try not to use just my home game for rules debate, i compare my base group with the open gaming night-once a month group, and my game store...game)
how can magic be unfair if this is a game? by the nature of this being a game, everything within must be fair...or else it cheating. there has to be a balance between magic and mundane. or else the mechanics are broken and the game is no good. I agree that Magicmart is a horrible place, and items should be found, but there is nothing cheeky about a girdle of giant strength. magical items are all a mundane gets to even exist at high levels. all a spellcaster needs is two rounds, being buck naked, and they could take on equal high level CRs. in 2nd ed the Fighter would get boots of flying and the wizard would get two new unique spells (eyefire anyone?) items are mundanes spells, its like that in many a story.