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Okay so I have to preface this with the fact that I only have very short limited play experience with monks, however there is a glaring problem with the monk. I know this has been brought up on other threads but I didn't see a thread dedicated to it.
Namely he has an ability that makes him as good at doing manuevers as a paladin/ranger/barbarian.
I thought the idea was that the monk was supposed to be good at manuevers. but the only manuever ability that the monk gets is one that says hey, now you aren't pawned by some guy who gets really angry when tripping.
Lets break it down. You get your level in place of your BAB, which means that any class with a full BAB is just as good as you. Lets not forget that manuevers are based on str, or dex based on which because of a monks mad, will never be as good as the characters who can afford to just pump one or two stats, say the fighter or barb. Which means that the monk is still not as good as the other classes at performing manuevers.
Oh but wait, the Monk gets the improved as bonus feats, that makes up for it right? Nope sorry, it takes one feat to beat those six feats, oh and by the way, it also beats any unique and one time ideas the DM thinks up to use CMB, despite the fact that they are so situational that the person taking the feat couldn't possibly have thought of training against them, but he did, and he did it with one feat.
This isn't about making CMBs easier, this thread is about making sure that if the monk is going to be using them, he's not easily shown up by the barbarian of fighter doing the exact same.
First as was recomended on another thread, the monk needs to deal unarmed strike damage if he does CMBs when unarmed.
Second he needs a flat bonus of +4 to performing CMBs he even gets into dealing with the feats. This closes the gap between the SAD characters and also ensures that if he invests in those improved feats he isn't automatically shut down by a guy with one feat. In fact when it comes to that guy with that one terrible feat, then the Monk is pretty much treated as the fighter or barb.
These changes are all I can think of but they need to take place at level 4 when the monk gains manuever training, otherwise this ability is just another "meh" ability.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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In the new feat ideas thread, I posted a feat that we came up with that allowed you to add your wisdom bonus to the CMB. It wasn't monk-only but it would be a boon for monks as wisdom is one of their multiple stats already.
EDIT: I think others have suggested this be a straightforward monk ability acquired around 3rd level.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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In another thread, I suggested working the feats so that they were consolidated more. Instead of getting Improved (Single Maneuver) you could get Improved (Group of Maneuvers) with the group being based on pre-requisites. This would make the feats worth more.
Again, it is not a monk only solution but would work towards building a combat maneuver using monk.
Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
The monk has agile maneuvers as well? What would the cleric's strength be?
The monk has agile maneuvers as well? What would the cleric's strength be?Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
lvl 9 cleric with 14 str. With elite array for NPC that is the best I could give to him (15 going into Wisdom of course). So that cleric had +8 CMB against lvl 7 monk's +12 and +17 in next rounds.
Of course I could have built a maneuver resistant opponents but then that is not proving anything. Or maybe it is if all my non full BAB NPC will have to have maneuver defense from now on.
And this cleric had solid AC, HP and saves. I guess to make BBEGs I need to worry about maneuver as well, or be a lame DM and give everyone freedom of movement.
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Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
Um, how would that be any different for a ranger doing the exact same thing with the exact same dex?
And has he tried grappling that fighter yet?
Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
Um, how would that be any different for a ranger doing the exact same thing with the exact same dex?
And has he tried grappling that fighter yet?
Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple different. Ranger does not get the first feat for free and does not get the second as a bonus one.
Ranger also does not get 50 feet movement so can do this in round 1.
Also having a weapon out for a ranger gives him a penalty on the check.
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Well in my game the monk is easily making his CR enemies useless by grappling. lvl 7 monk with 16 Dex and Improved Grapple makes clerics useless. With good initiative and high movespeed he can easily grapple most enemies of medium size or lower (even large ones with only +1 bonus to CMB are easy).
And those clerics are not going to try to exit the grapple with their low CMB. And if they cast a spell or fail in the attempt to exit the grapple this practically insures that the next grapple check will succeed with that +5 bonus you get. After that, that opponent is completely subdued by the monk and useless.
So maybe you think CMB for monks is too low, but I think for grappling it is even to high.
Um, how would that be any different for a ranger doing the exact same thing with the exact same dex?
And has he tried grappling that fighter yet?
Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple different. Ranger does not get the first feat for free and does not get the second as a bonus one.
Ranger also does not get 50 feet movement so can do this in round 1.
Also having a weapon out for a ranger gives him a penalty on the check.
What does improved unarmed strike have to do with anything?
Your right he'll have a feat over the ranger if he chose it, and the ranger didn't. So a +2 if he chose the feat and the ranger didn't. And um you still haven't said that your monk took agile manuevers or not? If so then a better comparison would be a Barb who will have a 16 str and then takes imp grapple since he could spend a feat on manuever improvement. Now the difference between the two is nill, and you've used your bonus feat and a chosen feat. whereas he just took one feat.
What if the cleric had defensive combat training, with one feat he's managed to negate the bonus you have from two feats and a class ability.
and you still haven't answered the fighter question.
What does improved unarmed strike have to do with anything?
It's a prerequisite for Improved Grapple (for a ranger).
I'm generally in agreement with you, though -- maneuvers should be something special for a monk. I think a monk should be able to do a "flurry of grapple checks" like in 3.5, for instance.
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What does improved unarmed strike have to do with anything?It's a prerequisite for Improved Grapple (for a ranger).
I'm generally in agreement with you, though -- maneuvers should be something special for a monk. I think a monk should be able to do a "flurry of grapple checks" like in 3.5, for instance.
Ah thank you I was thinking it was PA my mistake for talking without the book in front of me.
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I don't know I haven't been following the monk threads that closely I just have a problem with a character class "supposed" to be better than other classes at something that isn't
Yeah he gets the feats for free, but technically so does a fighter, a fighter gets the same Manuever free feats and so there is no way in which the monk is better at manuevers than a fighter. That means the monk has nothing really going for him to "shine" with.
I think you are refering to meepo's idea over in the "Monk's need Full BAB" thread, which is a very good idea.
Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.
IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.
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Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.
That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.
That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.
Right -- you and I and Meepo are all in agreement.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.
Whoops, reading comprehension fail on my part ... In my own defense, I was heading off to work to teach reading comprehension.
I liked it. I wonder if the opposite works too though ... on a successful unarmed strike, the monk may choose to attempt a grapple or a trip.
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That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.Whoops, reading comprehension fail on my part ... In my own defense, I was heading off to work to teach reading comprehension.
I liked it. I wonder if the opposite works too though ... on a successful unarmed strike, the monk may choose to attempt a grapple or a trip.
I don't know, could work, could throw too much manuever goodness to him. I'd have to playtest it, but I'm too caught up in my crusade to save the paladin.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I don't know, could work, could throw too much manuever goodness to him. I'd have to playtest it, but I'm too caught up in my crusade to save the paladin.
Any martial artists know if this makes sense? When I watch martial arts routines, it always seems that after a strike, a grapple seems to be suggested by the hand movements or follow up.* Likewise, a palm strike seems designed not just to injure but to knock backwards (trip).
Would I be wrong in thinking that a successful strike might preceed a trip or grapple attempt in martial arts?
* I took some Tae-Kwon-Do and Hap-Ki-Do in Korea but my Korean language was limited and I missed a lot of the explanation. This was what it looked like to me but I could have been misunderstanding.
Would I be wrong in thinking that a successful strike might preceed a trip or grapple attempt in martial arts?
Depends on the opponent's reaction to the strike. If I strike at someone and he is clearly poised and capable of a strong counterattack, I'm not going to try for a lock. On the other hand, if the blow stuns him, then I can sieze his wrist and apply a lock, or knock him down, or whatever. To be "realistic," a blow should have a chance of dazing your opponent, lowering his CMB, and allowing you the chance to effect a maneuver on your next action. Alas, it doesn't, so we're left without... unless you make a feat that piggybacks with Stunning Fist...
That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.Whoops, reading comprehension fail on my part ... In my own defense, I was heading off to work to teach reading comprehension.
I liked it. I wonder if the opposite works too though ... on a successful unarmed strike, the monk may choose to attempt a grapple or a trip.
Actually, I just wanted to suggest this. Give the monk an ability similar to Improved Grab and Improved Trip. When he hits with this standard attack he can also try to enter a grapple and trip the opponent.
Limit it so while trying this the Monk can only attack with a Standard Action.But free attack after each successful grapple or trip attack is not good. It makes this things too good and practically makes the monk a CMB warrior (as in monks will not attack normally anymore since this is more effective).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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But free attack after each successful grapple or trip attack is not good. It makes this things too good and practically makes the monk a CMB warrior (as in monks will not attack normally anymore since this is more effective).
Actually, the combat maneuvers would generally be harder to pull off than a regular hit. So, Epic Meepo's suggestion is far from overpowered.
Having my suggestion as a standard action only would keep it from being over powered. Kirth's suggestion of allowing it to piggy back with stunning fist is also interesting.
I think, basically, the idea would be to allow the monk to attempt combat maneuvers in certain situations.
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That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.Whoops, reading comprehension fail on my part ... In my own defense, I was heading off to work to teach reading comprehension.
I liked it. I wonder if the opposite works too though ... on a successful unarmed strike, the monk may choose to attempt a grapple or a trip.
Actually, I just wanted to suggest this. Give the monk an ability similar to Improved Grab and Improved Trip. When he hits with this standard attack he can also try to enter a grapple and trip the opponent.
Limit it so while trying this the Monk can only attack with a Standard Action.
But free attack after each successful grapple or trip attack is not good. It makes this things too good and practically makes the monk a CMB warrior (as in monks will not attack normally anymore since this is more effective).
Actually, with CMBs you are allready for the most part limited to a standard action. Also I think sunder should be excluded form the free hit rule, but other than that, grapple: standard action, bull rush: standard action, Overrun: Standard action. Which means that leaves him with trip and disarm replacing his normal attacks if he is trying to really damage the enemy (I wouldn't be opposed to a rule that says you can't attempt it in conjunction with a flurry). Yeah I see an unnarmed monk trying to do those in place of every attack action, I think that's actually quite fitting for an unarmed/unarmored person to try and do to someone coming at them in platemail and a sword. And since AC doesn't scale as well as CMB does, if the monk is trying those instead of normal attacks more power to him since it's harder. Seriously what's wrong with that?
Actually, with CMBs you are allready for the most part limited to a standard action. Also I think sunder should be excluded form the free hit rule, but other than that, grapple: standard action, bull rush: standard action, Overrun: Standard action. Which means that leaves him with trip and disarm replacing his normal attacks if he is trying to really damage the enemy (I wouldn't be opposed to a rule that says you can't attempt it in conjunction with a flurry). Yeah I see an unnarmed monk trying to do those in place of every attack action, I think that's actually quite fitting for an unarmed/unarmored person to try and do to someone coming at them in platemail and a sword. And since AC doesn't scale as...That's who I was talking about in my OP when I said someone suggested it.Yes, that's the one. I think it was that when monks successfully grapple they can make an immediate unarmed attack or something like that.IIRC, Meepo proposed that on any successful maneuver, a monk can also choose to deal unarmed damage, as an added bonus. I loved it, and houseruled it in immediately.Whoops, reading comprehension fail on my part ... In my own defense, I was heading off to work to teach reading comprehension.
I liked it. I wonder if the opposite works too though ... on a successful unarmed strike, the monk may choose to attempt a grapple or a trip.
Actually, I just wanted to suggest this. Give the monk an ability similar to Improved Grab and Improved Trip. When he hits with this standard attack he can also try to enter a grapple and trip the opponent.
Limit it so while trying this the Monk can only attack with a Standard Action.
But free attack after each successful grapple or trip attack is not good. It makes this things too good and practically makes the monk a CMB warrior (as in monks will not attack normally anymore since this is more effective).
Because the Monks preferred targets are not fighters in full plate, but the squishy enemies that stay in the back and those are more vulnerable to trip and grapple then normal attacks.
Also with new changes to size affecting CMB monks can more easily to maneuvers on bigger opponents. And for instance two grapple checks make any opponent useless in combat. For an ability that costs nothing and can be done whole day long, it is too powerful. Entangle and other effects that work similarly are weaker and can be used a limited times per day.|
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Because the Monks preferred targets are not fighters in full plate, but the squishy enemies that stay in the back and those are more vulnerable to trip and grapple then normal attacks.
According to who? that was never true in 3.5, with the improved feats (and no lame as heck defensive combat training feat) it was highly likely the monk was just as effective against said fighter in full plate. But we switch to a static DC and suddenly the monks only job is to grapple the spellcaster. That's lame.
Also with new changes to size affecting CMB monks can more easily to maneuvers on bigger opponents. And for instance two grapple checks make any opponent useless in combat. For an ability that costs nothing and can be done whole day long, it is too powerful. Entangle and other effects that work similarly are weaker and can be used a limited times per day.
Now that's a silly comparison. Entangle doesn't hamper the person who did the entangling. You say grapple is to powerful as if you can grapple and still move on to the next guy. Grappling takes you out just as readily as it takes the opponent out. For every round that the opponent has lost you've lost a round too. So it equals out. Entangle I can impose on twenty enemies and then start shooting them, casting fireball on them, etc. etc. etc. it's actually better than grapple.
And I think you're the first person I've seen who used the words CMB monks can more easily do anything. Yeah size isn't as much of a factor. but the big creature still have str on their side and the fact that your bonus from improved was equally nerfed, end result being dead even and the high DC15+ making manuevers hard enough. Unless you play a character who's only job is targeting the squishys. Hey that's great my character is the best at taking on spellcaster until they get dimension door, then I'm useless. or the travel domain, or they're conjuration specialists. Which means I'm only effective after a certain level against a specific subset of clerics.
"Why aren't we playing 3.5 where I was more effective in general against anyone and could flurry every round and do manuevers as part of every flurry which has actually been limited down too two choices?"
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Hey, LKL, I thought we were going to avoid getting sucked into another one of these "DC is too high (or too low)" or "combat maneuvers are for newbies" discussions.
Archangel, respectfully, please read LKL's original post. Your point has to do with all classes not monks specifically. We are talking about how to help monks do best what monks should do best.
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Hey, LKL, I thought we were going to avoid getting sucked into another one of these "DC is too high (or too low)" or "combat maneuvers are for newbies" discussions.
Archangel, respectfully, please read LKL's original post. Your point has to do with all classes not monks specifically. We are talking about how to help monks do best what monks should do best.
I'm beginning to think it isn't possible my friend. But you are right,
For the monk to shine at being the manuever guy he needs to have class features that make him better than anyone else at it. As it stands when it comes to manuevers I could build a fighter who does everything manuever-wise that a monk does, and have it earlier. That means that the monk doesn't shine at manuevers. That is why he needs a bonus to his CMB checks that other classes do not get, and he needs to do damage to make up for the fact that if he's going to be the manuever guy he doesn't just sit there doing manuevers and never actually hurt anyone.
Right now the monk can either hurt you, or he can perform a manuever on you, he can't do both. Go speak with a martial artist and see if they are incapable of tripping and hurting you at the same time.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Right now the monk can either hurt you, or he can perform a manuever on you, he can't do both. Go speak with a martial artist and see if they are incapable of tripping and hurting you at the same time.
Ouch. I can tell you it is possible. 5'2" Korean girl and she nearly broke my toe. ... Nursed me back to health afterwards though.
I think we have a number of suggestions in this thread. To recap:
All of these together may be too much but a couple of them might be cool.
More suggestions.
I know it’s not absolutely clear but I seem to see a pattern out of many of these suggestion. Basically it’s “action type required” for manoeuvres that scale-down as the monk gains level going form:
- Standard Action .
- An Attack “Action”.(so flurry-able)
- Part of an unarmed attack (free action, comparable to improved grab and cie.).
- Dealing unarmed damage as part of each manoeuvre.
Some kind of special progression of the manoeuvres Feats for the monk or something similar I guess.
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Yeah theres a lot of goodness in out there to mine ideas from, hell you can just give him a flat +3 bonus to manuevers and call it a day (in essence lowering the DC from 15 to 12 for the monk) Viola no matter what the fighter does, when it comes down to it, you're better at manuevers than him.
Still the monk could really use the ability to do unarmed damage on a succesful CMB except for the sunder manuever.
I think it would go a long way if I monk could ADD his level to his CMB bonus rather than replacing his BAB with his level. Full BAB classes would still start out better (assuming they had a high str), but monks would overtake them eventually, making them the kings of Combat Maneuvers in the mid-high levels.
I love that idea. Love it I tell you. With real love. Add the "does unarmed strike damage after successfulling performing a manuever." and I believe the monk could be called fixed.
I think it would go a long way if I monk could ADD his level to his CMB bonus rather than replacing his BAB with his level. Full BAB classes would still start out better (assuming they had a high str), but monks would overtake them eventually, making them the kings of Combat Maneuvers in the mid-high levels.
This has been my main problem with monk, actually. When I was originally planning my monk I intended to specialize in grappling, but after playing a few sessions, i realized my character would never actually get very good at it, and decided to scrap the idea. Instead, I'm going to specialize in acrobatics and climb to get fun "wire effects" type stuff going on, cause thats pretty much the only niche I can fill in combat, the fighter and barbarian (yes we are melee heavy) in the party can do pretty much everything I can do, only better at this point (level 4). Hit more often, deal more damage when they hit, etc.
LOl. So by lvl 20 monks would have a +20 bonus on CMB. And since their BAB is +15 by then and fighters +20 they would be at a +15 difference??
The difference should never go over +5.
What you propose is completely unbalanced and overpowered.
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I think it would go a long way if I monk could ADD his level to his CMB bonus rather than replacing his BAB with his level. Full BAB classes would still start out better (assuming they had a high str), but monks would overtake them eventually, making them the kings of Combat Maneuvers in the mid-high levels.
This has been my main problem with monk, actually. When I was originally planning my monk I intended to specialize in grappling, but after playing a few sessions, i realized my character would never actually get very good at it, and decided to scrap the idea. Instead, I'm going to specialize in acrobatics and climb to get fun "wire effects" type stuff going on, cause thats pretty much the only niche I can fill in combat, the fighter and barbarian (yes we are melee heavy) in the party can do pretty much everything I can do, only better at this point (level 4). Hit more often, deal more damage when they hit, etc.
LOl. So by lvl 20 monks would have a +20 bonus on CMB. And since their BAB is +15 by then and fighters +20 they would be at a +15 difference??
The difference should never go over +5.
What you propose is completely unbalanced and overpowered.
I'm actually going to surprise you and agree that it shouldn't go over 5. Remember, the Base DC is 15 and with all things being equal as it stands the base DC between a fighter and a monk with equal strength will be 15. For every point of bonus you give the monk that is essentially lowering the base DC. the base DC for manuevers should never go below the base DC to hit a character with a weapon, which is 10 if naked with no dex bonus. That was why I proffered just a flat +3 bonus, because with the improved feats that makes the base DC 10, and if the enemy has that aweful feat, even then the base DC is 14 if you have the improved feat, which is still better than the basic fighter. But the boost should never go past a +5
If it should never go over +5, then why not have it gained in line with the bonus AC that monks gain? Start off weaker, but end up stronger, much like casters?
so use class level and then add in the monk AC bonus too. That's what it ends up with if the cap is going to be +5.
ninja'd by loki_d20
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Right now the monk can either hurt you, or he can perform a manuever on you, he can't do both. Go speak with a martial artist and see if they are incapable of tripping and hurting you at the same time.
Most techniques as taught do "something" (disarm, trip, grapple, whatever) without hurting for a simple reason: half the class would be crippled each time you practiced otherwise.
All techniques can be switched from "class practice" to "combat function" with a shift of position of an inch or less.As goofy as he has gotten lately, and as campy as some of his flicks are, watch some old Steven Seagal movies for examples of that in action. He "disarms" people by snapping their elbows, and "trips" people by breaking their shins or knees.
There are typically game balance issues to separate them in most rules sets.
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Ok, make it add 1/2 your level then. At 20th monks with have 15 + 10 = 25, fighters will have 20. Makes it into your +5 parameters.I think it would go a long way if I monk could ADD his level to his CMB bonus rather than replacing his BAB with his level. Full BAB classes would still start out better (assuming they had a high str), but monks would overtake them eventually, making them the kings of Combat Maneuvers in the mid-high levels.
This has been my main problem with monk, actually. When I was originally planning my monk I intended to specialize in grappling, but after playing a few sessions, i realized my character would never actually get very good at it, and decided to scrap the idea. Instead, I'm going to specialize in acrobatics and climb to get fun "wire effects" type stuff going on, cause thats pretty much the only niche I can fill in combat, the fighter and barbarian (yes we are melee heavy) in the party can do pretty much everything I can do, only better at this point (level 4). Hit more often, deal more damage when they hit, etc.
LOl. So by lvl 20 monks would have a +20 bonus on CMB. And since their BAB is +15 by then and fighters +20 they would be at a +15 difference??
The difference should never go over +5.
What you propose is completely unbalanced and overpowered.
No monks have manuever training which gives them their level for CMB instead of BAB that means it's 20+10=30, unless you are suggesting that instead of the current version they get half their level as a bonus, which means that when they get it at level 4 they'll have a +6, that's actually quite a good suggestion, it's always slightly better than the fighter while at the same time not being significantly better.
I like this a lot, good show.
in my campaign i use monk variants to simulate the different schools and traditions of my world. first off, all monks do unarmed damage equal to a club of equal size. They get a bonus to bab, unarmed damage, and ac* equal to the relative attribute the school is based on and increases by +1 per 4 levels capped by the monk's level(so a 1st level monk doesn't get the entire attribute mod at once) cmb is based on level and deals damage with a successful cmb. the Fist of Bahgtu use Str as the attribute (* this varient doesn't get ac bonus, just bonus hp as they are allowed spiked gloves and studded leather armour, see Bahgru (orc diety) for reasoning and fluff), the Fangs of Mershaulk use Dex while the Cenobites of Zerthimon use Wis. all of the variants use ki pool for different abilities to augment their damage which they acquire as they gain levels. i know that there is a desire to have something official and cannon, but if you don't like the way something is fixed you can always fix it yourself...hopefully the messageboard and forums will lead paizo to a solution that works for all!
Given the MAD of monk design, providing some more Wis synergy might not be out of place at all, so adding it to their CMB would be nice for alot of players.
Now, there've been proposals to "combine" some of the CM feats, putting Bull Rush and Overrun together, for instance. Overall, I think this would help the monk, who has fewer feats anyhow, and since CMs are supposedly a specialty--if he or she wanted to expand their focus, they could more easily under this system.
Thoughts on that?