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Currently, I think the specialist wizard mechanic as offered in Pathfinder is a great idea, although the fine details could use some tweaking to be more accepting of different interpretations of abjurers, conjurers, etc, and there is unevenness in power amongst the different schools. I brought this up early in the Alpha, and Jason asked me to bring it up later. Well, it’s later … :)
First, attacking prohibited schools are that they are not prohibited. I’m sure Jason added them back in to combat the preposterous idea that a 20th level necromancer couldn’t learn magic missile. However, the Specialist wizards should cast prohibited spells at +1 or +2 spell levels. Otherwise, specialist wizards are going to use prohibited spells, or prohibited spell scrolls, or what like, which really defeats the thematic purpose of a specialist wizard…
On to the actual specialist school powers … I think the powers as listed are narrow and very uneven in power. I’ll start posting a play-by-play of each school.
ABJURATION – The point of an abjurer, in my mind, is someone who can offer protection to himself and his party from offensive tactics of all sorts. In looking at the Pathfinder powers, they seem very narrow, offering protection against energy types only. I’d suggest a more versatile list of powers, slightly increased in power to excite and interest abjurers of all levels everywhere …
To begin, Resistance 5 isn’t bad, but it’s a pretty limited power, and I think the 1st level power of each of the schools should be useful throughout the life of the character. I suggest the following, which basically becomes a built-in cloak of resistance, which thematically is good:
Specialist Bonus: All abjurers gain a +1 resistance bonus to all saving throws. This bonus increases by +1 for every five class levels you possess, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
Next, I’d look at the 1st level power … a standard action to grant an ally a +1 AC (or even a +3 AC) is going to go by the wayside at higher levels. How about this as an alternative?
1st Protective Ward (Su): As a standard action, you can grant any one protective spell effect currently active on yourself to any one ally you touch for a duration of 1 round, plus 1 round per 4 caster levels. At the end of this duration, the protective spell effect reverts to the caster.
The 8th level ability is again tied into energy damage. Let’s say an 8th level abjurer has taken fire resistance for the day, and gets 24 points of fire absorbtion. That’s all well and good, but they can memorize the spell Protection from Energy, which grants a greater resistance (although with a defined duration). I would suggest the following more versatile option that would grant the 8th level effect, and then some.
8th Abjurant Wards (Su): Any one abjuration spell or spell-like ability the caster can use of up to 3rd level may be used on himself with a duration of 24 hours.
The 20th level power is fine, although a bit narrow once again,
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CONJURERS – I think the powers offered are not evocative of a conjurer. A bonus to AC and acid darts make the conjurer as offered feel more like an artillery spellcaster, which I would think is the opposite of the theme we are trying to evoke.
For the specialist power, an untyped bonus to AC is powerful and as I said above, I feel it is not evocative of the school. I offer the following general power that's toned down a bit:
Specialist Bonus: Any conjuration spell cast is considered to have a total duration of 1 extra round. For every five levels, your durations increase by 1 extra round, to a total of 5 extra rounds at 20th level.
The first level power, acid dart, is almost identical to the evoker power, and I would think the specialist abilities should offer variety to make the different classes more interesting and replayable. I’d suggest the following replacement:
1st Summon Object (Su): A conjurer can summon any object weighing up to 1 lb per 2 caster levels to his hand within 30 feet. If the object is possessed by another, they may make a Will save to negate the effect. This ability is a conjuration (teleportation) effect.
The printed 8th level power, dimensional steps isn’t horrible as a power, but it’s a repeat of a spell that anyone can take (dimension door) at 5th level. I suggest an effect that modifies spell use rather than repeat a spell effect:
8th Teleportation Master (Su): Any conjuration (teleportation) spell cast can transport double the number of targets allowed beyond the caster, and can be used offensively to transport a single unwilling creature within 30 feet that fails their Will save.
The 20th level power is good as written, and gives a 20th level conjurer a permanent ally. It's not the most powerful capstone ability, but it's not horrible.
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DIVINERS – Looking at the basic class power of a diviner, it’s a weak ability. Transmuters get bonuses to an ability, Illusionists have spells that last longer, and you get an extra action *if* there’s a surprise round. I’m not sure about other games, but in ours, there might be one or two surprise encounters per level, and there’s no guarantee a diviner even gets to go first. I’d suggest the following instead:
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +1 insight bonus on Reflex saves and your Armor Class, plus an additional +1 per five levels, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
The 1st level power is a standard touch, granting a bonus. This feels more like a cleric effect than a divination themed power, and as it takes a standard action and only lasts 3 rounds, I think it will quickly fall out of the diviner’s arsenal as they move on to cast higher level spells, that are a better use of the economy of actions. How about this?
1st Avoid Dire Peril (Su): A diviner may “take 5” on any attack roll, saving throw, initiative check, skill check, or attack roll at any time, whether they are distracted, threatened, or rushed. As an immediate action, they may grant this ability to anyone adjacent to the caster.
The 8th level power isn’t powerful, and the beta took out the removal of the focus. I’m not sure why, but I’d put the removal of any expensive focus for *any* scrying type spell.
The 20th level power is a bit odd. If you can never be caught flat footed, why not just call it the uncanny dodge ability? It’s a little more powerful, but it is a capstone ability. So I suggest the following tweaked 20th level power (with a slightly more humble name):
20th Master of Secrets (Su): You gain the evasion and uncanny dodge abilities, and cannot be surprised. As well, you can cast scrying at will and subjects get a -10 penalty on their save, regardless of how familiar they are to you. You can even use this ability to scry on areas protected from scrying, although the subjects get a +5 bonus on their save to resist.
Awesome stuff! Well done, I'm going to watching this thread and using some of your ideas, regardless of if they make it into the final release.
Peace,
tfad
I disagree with your take on the Diviner special ability:
I don't think a anyone playing a Diviner should expect a generic, always useful Combat Enhancing/ Survival ability.
Anyhow, I'd much rather have a full action on the surprise round, than a flat bonus to Reflex and AC.
I was going to make a thread like this. Then you already did. Well done.
CONJURERS – I think the powers offered are not evocative of a conjurer. A bonus to AC and acid darts make the conjurer as offered feel more like an artillery spellcaster, which I would think is the opposite of the theme we are trying to evoke.
For the specialist power, an untyped bonus to AC is powerful and as I said above, I feel it is not evocative of the school. I offer the following general power that's toned down a bit:
Specialist Bonus: Any conjuration spell cast is considered to have a total duration of 1 extra round. For every five levels, your durations increase by 1 extra round, to a total of 5 extra rounds at 20th level.
The first level power, acid dart, is almost identical to the evoker power, and I would think the specialist abilities should offer variety to make the different classes more interesting and replayable. I’d suggest the following replacement:
1st Summon Object (Su): A conjurer can summon any object weighing up to 1 lb per 2 caster levels to his hand within 30 feet. If the object is possessed by another, they may make a Will save to negate the effect. This ability is a conjuration (teleportation) effect.
The printed 8th level power, dimensional steps isn’t horrible as a power, but it’s a repeat of a spell that anyone can take (dimension door) at 5th level. I suggest an effect that modifies spell use rather than repeat a spell effect:
8th Teleportation Master (Su): Any conjuration (teleportation) spell cast can transport double the number of targets allowed beyond the caster, and can be used offensively to transport a single unwilling creature within 30 feet that fails their Will save.
The 20th level power is good as written, and gives a 20th level conjurer a permanent ally. It's not the most powerful capstone ability, but it's not horrible.
May suggestion for Conjurers would be that the Summon Monster Spells have a casting time of only 1 standard action for a conjurer rather than a Full round casting time.
I like your Conjure...
I have to agree with the monster summoning being more in-line with conjurers in general. Perhaps the object summoning could conjure a bolt with a scaling bonus? Just a thought.
DIVINERS – Looking at the basic class power of a diviner, it’s a weak ability. Transmuters get bonuses to an ability, Illusionists have spells that last longer, and you get an extra action *if* there’s a surprise round. I’m not sure about other games, but in ours, there might be one or two surprise encounters per level, and there’s no guarantee a diviner even gets to go first. I’d suggest the following instead:
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +1 insight bonus on Reflex saves and your Armor Class, plus an additional +1 per five levels, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
I'm thinking the innate class ability should be an insight bonus to Reflex saves and Initiative, not necessarily AC.
Archade, these are nice good job!
I for one completely agree with the OP. In fact, my main objections were regarding the disparity between the capstones you highlighted and other schools' capstones. Well done!
I also thought this would be an appropriate tool for a Conjurer.
It's not so flashy, but it helps with the main weakness of Conjuration Spells in-combat.
As an alternative to making it a Standard Action, they could be granted a Level-Scaling Bonus
to Spellcraft/Concentration to resist disruption when casting Summoning Spells.
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I'm not sure summoning monsters as a standard action is a good idea. In our group, we've had a lot of summoning specialists, and they regularly take the Rapid Casting metamagic feat which allows the casting of spells in one standard action as a spell one level higher, without blinking. I think giving this ability away 'for free' might be a little much.
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ENCHANTERS – This school should evoke enchantment, manipulation, and silver-tongued magical effects, I think. The specialist bonus is an excellent start to this.
The 1st level power is a touch attack, and does not have a lot of utility past low-level play. Really, is a 15th level enchanter going to run up and touch a barbed devil to daze it? I recommend the following replacement:
1st Commanding Voice (Su): If you can succeed in a DC 20 Diplomacy, Intimidate or Bluff check as a standard action, you can target a single creature within range to the effects of a command spell. Your target still receives a Will save against this effect, as the command spell.
Aura of despair is not a bad ability, but it’s negative towards foes, when it could also be positive to allies. I recommend the following subtle change:
8th Aura of Enchantment (Su): You can emit a continuous 30-foot aura, either granting allies a +1 morale bonus, and foes a -1 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks.
The 20th level ability for enchanters seems good to me.
Cool, maybe that bonus to resist Disruption would work better.
I agree that allowing the Summoned Creature to pop in and attack,
right on the caster's initiative would be too much.
(I wouldn't let the summon APPEAR on that Standard Action in any case)
This "sort" of bonus certainly seems appropriate to the School, though.
(making Conjurers less susceptible to a major weakness of Summon Spells (Full Round Casting = Interrupt Bait)
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EVOKERS – The specialist bonus is a good power. It’s not horribly powerful or imaginitive, but it’s reasonable.
The first level power is reasonable, although not horribly evocative. Rather than specializing in energy types, I’d suggest force darts, and let them pick (augmented) evocation spells to cover the energy front;
1st Force Darts (Su): As a standard action, you can unleash darts of force energy that can target any foe within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The force darts deal 1d6 points of damage. Your specialist bonus applies to this spell.
The 8th level power duplicates Wall of Fire, which they got a level ago. It just isn’t an exciting ability. I recommend the following as a replacement:
8th Evoker’s Wrath (Su): You can cause any object or creature (even the caster) within 30 feet that does not exceed Medium size to emit an energy type of your choice, damaging all who touch it with 1d4 points of damage per 2 caster levels, but not harming the original object or creature. Objects targeted that are held by, or are opposing creatures are allowed a Will save. The effect lasts for as long as the caster concentrates.
Finally, the 20th level power is a bit weak for a capstone ability. I mean, a fireball allowing some damage to a fire creature, after ignoring the first 20 points? There are all sorts of untyped damage spells that would be more attractive, I would think. How about the slightly improved version below?
20th Master of the Elements (Su): When dealing damage by an evocation spell with an energy descriptor, half of the resulting damage is untyped, bypassing most resistances.
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ILLUSIONIST – The specialist bonus to continue spells longer with concentration durations is an excellent ability, and allows silent image to be useful at 1st level, and other spells at higher levels. I’m kind of looking at this specialist bonus as the bar to set all the others against – useful, but not overpowering.
I think the 1st level power of blinding ray is too powerful. There’s no save, no HD cap, and is subject to a lot of a use. And it’s not horribly illusion-y. I’d recommend the following:
1st Misdirection (Su): An illusionist can cause any creature within 30 feet to suffer a penalty against Perception checks equal to -2 per two caster levels, to a maximum of -20 at 20th level.
Again, the 8th level power of this school duplicates a spell they can get at earlier levels. There’s no excitement or class bonus here, just a bonus spell effect. I’d recommend the following replacement, which is the equivalent of the printed 20th level power, which is horribly underpowered for a capstone ability:
8th Master of Disguises (Su): An illusionist of this level is considered to have a continuous disguise self spell in effect, granting a permanent +10 to disguise and the ability to change their appearance at will.
And for a capstone 20th level power, I suggest the following:
20th Shadow Adept (Su): Any shadow spell cast is considered +20% more real, such as shadow evocation or shadow conjuration.
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NECROMANCERS – In my opinion, the specialist power of the necromancer is the weakest of all the schools, and useless at low levels. It has to go. I recommend the following slightly more versatile power (although I still think it’s weak):
Specialist Bonus: You can control double the normal HD of undead creatures (4 HD per caster level), and you are gain a bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Knowledge (religion), Sense Motive, and Perception checks involving undead equal to your class level.
The 1st level power grave touch is a bit off, because it’s a touch attack that does damage – it will be useful at low levels, but mid- to high-level necromancers will use spells instead of this ability, retiring it. I suggest the following:
1st Fell Magic (Su): Whenever an opponent is damaged by a necromantic spell cast by yourself, you impose a -2 penalty to Strength that lasts for 1 minute.
The 8th level power of animating dead as a supernatural ability without material components will result in zombie and skeleton giants following the necromancer everywhere. And they can animate dead at 7th level. How about the following?
8th Master’s Call (Su): Necromancers can command undead under their control as a free action, rather than a standard action.
And the 20th level power isn’t bad, but someone pointed out making it supernatural means it stops working in an antimagic field? Weird, but not unreasonable. An excellent capstone ability.
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TRANSMUTERS – Finally, we look at this school. The ability to transmorgrify your body and increase your ability scores is neat, but in our playtests it encouraged strategic building of characters and increasing odd stats. I think this ability should be focused on to Constitution only:
Specialist Bonus: You gain a +1 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a further +1 for every 5 caster levels, up to a total of +5 to Constitution at 20th level.
The first level power isn’t very evocative of the school. All the fist spells are evocation spells, and while telekinesis is a transmutation spell, does this effect really summon to mind the image of a transmuter. How about this more evocative power?
1st Animating Aura (Su): As a standard action, a transmuter may animate a single object, causing it to act as a animated object monster. You may animate an object of a CR equal to one-half your caster level, and the duration that the animation lasts is as long as the transmuter concentrates.
The 8th level power that allows shape changing isn’t unreasonable, but it repeats a spell that the transmuter had a while back, and of less duration. How about this?
8th Transmuting Touch (Su): Once per day, you can touch an object, increasing or decreasing its hardness by 1 point per 2 levels of Transmuter you possess. If you choose, you may change the object to a material that matches its’ new hardness. This effect lasts for 1 hour/level. If used on a creature, it may be used to gain Damage Reduction, or reduce Damage Reduction by an equal amount. If used on an unwilling target, they gain a Fortitude save to negate the effect.
The capstone ability is reasonable, and fine as-is
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UNIVERSALISTS – Since there is no specialist ability, I really can’t complain, can I? Obviously with the level-dependant bonuses and the extra spells, specialists don’t have much of an edge over a generalist, but if you made prohibited spells one or two levels higher (hint, hint!) I think we would be fine.
1st – I think that Hand of the Apprentice is a great idea, but shouldn’t be a class ability. I think that mage hand should allow anyone to fight at a distance. As a class ability as written, it lets you fight at a distance – the same as an evokers blast-em ability, but this one lets you add your Intelligence bonus to hit and damage, which outstrips a 1st level fighter. Should my 1st level wizard with a 20 Intelligence really get a +5 to hit and damage? I suggest making mage hand able to fight with a weapon at a distance, and change the 1st level power to this:
1st Hand of the Apprentice (Su): As a standard action, you may use mage hand as a spell-like ability at will. Unlike mage hand, you may use it to wield a magical weapon of up to 5 lb.
Aside from that, I have no suggestions on the Universalist. I think the Metamagic Mastery and Mastery of All Schools are reasonable powers.
No feedback from anyone on the other schools? I'd love some input ...
I'm sorry, I don't have time for some in depth feedback right now. Is it enough to say I love the look of what you've done, have bookmarked this page, and intend to go through it and include a lot of it in my home games, regardless of whether it makes it into the final release or not?
Thanks for all your hard work!
tfad
These are all fantastic, really. I sincerly hope Jason takes a good long look at this. My only thought, is Evokers are still pretty weak, overall. Their special ability should be +1 Damage per Die. also, Force Darts seems too Magic missile like, which they could get alot of anyway if they chose properly. I'd keep the energy Ray, but have the damage scale a little, maybe 2D6 at 5th, 3D6 at 10th, etc...1D6+5 at 20th level, is quite frankly, a joke.
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I picked force darts to avoid issues of Damage Reduction from foes. Yeah, it's like a magic missile at will, effectively. Cleric domains grant fire/etc attacks, this gives another player option.
I agree the evoker power is not very powerful, but do we really want evoker wizards to be uber-artillery over their brethren? Or vs. sorcerers?
I picked force darts to avoid issues of Damage Reduction from foes. Yeah, it's like a magic missile at will, effectively. Cleric domains grant fire/etc attacks, this gives another player option.
I agree the evoker power is not very powerful, but do we really want evoker wizards to be uber-artillery over their brethren? Or vs. sorcerers?
Well, I think the Energy Ray is good, simply because the Magic Missile Spell is better and at 2nd level, any Evoker worth his salt takes that as the spell he can cast as a bonus, which gets a serious number of uses per day as he advances in level. Also, being able to swap the energy type of the Ray on the fly helps overcome the Resistance problem. And for the record, yes, I DO want Evokers to be at least near uber-artillery - isn't that why you play one ? To Blow Stuff UP ! I think the Energy Ray should scale every 5 levels by adding another D6. This is what 5D6 at 20th Level ? Not nearly as bad as some Reserve Feats could give you. Also, the +1 Damage per Die is not nearly as aggregious as you might think. +2 per Die is starting to get there, but +1 should be fine. This was allowed in a prestige class for Force Mages, and I don't see it as being unable to be ported over for the new Evoker.
Some very good stuff here. A couple of points in particular:
1. I totally agree with the idea of making spells from 'prohibited' schools require a higher spell slot. I think 1 level higher should be fine. That's enough to make these spells poor choices most of the time, while leaving them available. Also, the name 'prohibited schols' should then be changed to something else. Maybe 'minor schools'?
One important point: When calculating the DC of the spell, the normal level of the spell should be used. I know this was specified in 3.5E, but I think a special mention should be made when explaining this rule. For example, Slow should always have a DC appropriate to a 3rd level spell (unless Heighten Spell is being applied).
2. One thing I disagree about are the 8th and 20th level abilities for universalist wizards. Both seem far too powerful, in fact as things stand I would be unlikely to take a specialist. This is especially true if the above specialisation system is implemtented, since universalists would not get penalised for casting from any of the schools.