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...this is the first time I've really felt disappointed about the playtesting. When design comes in and basically just says 'no' to a LOT of people clamoring for a change, I have to wonder what the point of our feedback really is.
We can't judge success simply on whether or not the cries of many people on the boards achieve change. We're a self-selected sample and although we relay information about our playtests and our opinions, we're only giving our advice. We also have to remember that Backwards Compatibility at some level is a commercial necessity as per Paizo's analysis, so the amount of stuff they can change -- even when I think that the change is a mistake, as per the change to PrC save progressions, for example -- is limited. As a result, they'll have to prioritise changes even if they did like the idea and they can hardly take the 'clamour' from a self-selected subsection (people that posted in this thread) of the self-selected subsection (people reading the forums or in the playtest) of the wider audience to be too important.
At least this specific issue is something that would be moderately easy to house rule if you were concerned ("hey, Mr Sorceror, here's your new spell progression"; yes, the problem would be that your stat blocks for non-player sorcs would be out, but that's why keeping backwards compatibility probably forces no change in the spell progression, too. Using 3.5 stuff adding sorc bloodlines isn't so hard; recalculating spell lists, not so easy). Anyhow, for some of us (me included) what makes sorcs cooler in this case is the bloodline stuff.
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When I've played wizards with 1 first level spell, I've never memorized spells in advance. Thus, I actually end up using spells like Animate Rope and Hold Portal, because when it only takes 15 minutes to memorize a spell, it makes far more sense to carry your spellbook with a dozen first level spells and memorize what you need on the spot.That is a HUGE advantage over the sorcerer.
Of course. I do nothing else. Whenever we're ambushed, I call out "could you guys wait for a couple of minutes, I'm going to prepare my spells. Say, are you immune to fire? Really? I'll learn lightning bolt, then.
The hold portal one is the best idea yet!
"The monsters are coming, they're trying to get in here! We have to stop them now!"
"Just a little bit more!"
"Little bit? We're pushing against this door for half a minute now, and in 30 seconds, at most, they'll be all here and start pushing. We have no chance to hold them back then! Cast your spell!"
"Just another 14 minutes!"
"WHAT????"
You know KaeYoss, this is really one of those case where one person sarcastically mocks another person for their "dumb ideas" but only ends up making themselves look unimaginative and dull-witted.
I mean seriously, the lack of imagination evident in this post is staggering.
However the wizard is still going to come ahead on spells per day after level 1...Your numbers are way off:
Thank you KaeYoss - that's been driving me nuts reading the whole thread.
Sorcerers without question get more spells per day, and of higher spell levels, than wizards.
I don't personally feel that either class is strongly over-powered vs. the other. I do know that the two major power-gamers in my group over time have scoffed at the wizard and consider the Sorcerer to be far more powerful.
The strongest reason being the spontaneous use of metamagic. A full-round action is a pretty tiny thing to give up to enlarge, empower, or widen a spell at a moment's notice.
Leave the casting the same.
"Just another 14 minutes!"
"WHAT????"You know KaeYoss, this is really one of those case where one person sarcastically mocks another person for their "dumb ideas" but only ends up making themselves look unimaginative and dull-witted.
I mean seriously, the lack of imagination evident in this post is staggering.
Staggering or not, what he makes quite evident is that a *party* simply does not always have the luxury of stopping in the middle of what they are doing to let a Wizard pick up the perfect spell for the situation.
Sometimes they do. In my experience, most of the time they do not. Is there a good balance possible for the Wizard to maximize this flexibility advantage? Sure, but that doesn't make it some awesome perfect solution to any problem. In my experience, most of the time battles are sudden, or time is short.
However the wizard is still going to come ahead on spells per day after level 1...Your numbers are way off:
Thank you KaeYoss - that's been driving me nuts reading the whole thread.
.....
The strongest reason being the spontaneous use of metamagic. A full-round action is a pretty tiny thing to give up to enlarge, empower, or widen a spell at a moment's notice.Leave the casting the same.
Yeah I really flubbed my math there. Sorry about that.
Spontaneous use of metamagic is powerful... however a generalist wizard at eighth level gets it "double plus good" with his metamagic mastery.
That's a topic for another thread though, Staggered casting doesn't bother me too much I just want to see the bloodline powers be worth something... and to have my familiar back without being pigeonholed into the arcane bloodline.
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Staggering or not, what he makes quite evident is that a *party* simply does not always have the luxury of stopping in the middle of what they are doing to let a Wizard pick up the perfect spell for the situation.
Sometimes they do. In my experience, most of the time they do not. Is there a good balance possible for the Wizard to maximize this flexibility advantage? Sure, but that doesn't make it some awesome perfect solution to any problem. In my experience, most of the time battles are sudden, or time is short.
And in my experience, most players are smart enough to not rush headlong into situations where they'll be forced to be reacting to the unknown. There's a lot more to D&D than battles you know.
The sorcerer is better for combat than the wizard. More spells means more endurance in a fight, and the forced specialization of the narrow spell list encourages the sorcerer to select for optimal combat spells, and for strategic spell combos.
For example, my 4th level Celestial Sorcerer Aishwara's spell list, including bonus spells from her Celestial bloodline and the Celestial Bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium is:
0 - Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, Read Magic
1 - (Bless), Burning Hands, Karmic Aura, Mage Armor, (Protection from Evil)
2 - (Daylight), Scorching Ray
Notice the complete lack of utility spells above 0-Level. Her spell list is optimized for undead fighting. Her feats include Consecrate Spell, and will eventually include Searing Spell, so she can burn demons and devils. But she won't be learning Knock, or other utility spells, because no utility spell is worth a combat specific spell to a Sorcerer.
Here's the spell list from one of my 3.5 sorcerer NPCs with Fey heritage feats, the Sorcerer 10/Wild Soul 4 Erinjaye Amberglass:
0 - Daze, Ghost Sound, Dancing Lights, Electric Jolt, Arcane Mark, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1 - Charm Person, Color Spray, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, True Casting, (Remove Fear)
2 - Eagle's Splendor, Hypnotic Pattern, Rainbow Beam, Scorching Ray, Touch of Idiocy, (Tasha's hideous laughter)
3 - Arcane Eye, Dispel Magic, Major Image, Rainbow Blast, (invisibility sphere)
4 - Energy Spheres, Rainbow Pattern, Ray of Deanimation, Ruin Delver's Fortune, (break enchantment)
5 - Arcane Fusion, Prismatic Ray, Persistent Image
6 - Analyze Dweomer, Ruby Ray of Reversal
You'll notice that almost all of the spell's in her list deal with one of two themes: magic manipulation and prismatics, with a tiny smattering of very broadly useful utility spells. She's a mage killer.
If the Wizard seems no different than the Sorcerer, I suspect it's because people are playing the Wizard wrong. The whole point of the Wizard is that he's like Batman, except everyone he fights is Superman. So he wins by being prepared. He makes sure that he has the right kryptonite for every situation. That's what makes him the master of the arcane arts, and makes the Sorcerer a glass cannon.
Consider this: by 7th level, a wizard could easily have spellbooks containing 20 to 30 spells per level for levels 0-3. Depending on the DM's feelings about OGL material, the wizard has potential access to dozens, possibly even hundreds, of spells at every level.
Assuming a standard dungeon crawl, and a DM who isn't railroading the whole party and being a jerk, then the wizard studies four spells in the morning: Mage Armor, Invisibility, Dimension Door, and Arcane Eye. The Wizard has already created a Wand of Scorching Ray (CL 7th).
Wizard travels to the dungeon. If anyone attacks him on the way, he Dimension Doors to the maximum distance away, casts Invisibility, and flees for home. Assuming he makes it safely to the dungeon, and there is an open entrance, he casts Arcane Eye, scouts out the location to the maximum degree possible, and then selects the optimal set of spells for the situation. And if he screws up and gets into trouble, he pulls the Dimension Door/Invisible combo and gets the heck out of Dodge.
For example, he might notice that just beyond the entrance of the dungeon is a group of orcs, and just beyond them is a door. And beyond that door is more orcs. So the wizard memorizes Hold Portal or Arcane Lock, and when the party engages the first group of orcs, the wizard's first priority is sealing that door to contain the reinforcements, allowing the party to fight them on their own schedule.
A sorcerer can't afford to waste a spell known slot on a spell that is of as limited and infrequent use as Hold Portal, but a wizard can easily afford the few pages in a spellbook.
Wizards get Scribe Scroll for a reason, and it showcases the major difference between Wizards and Sorcerers.
Wizards will have a large list of spells, including the ones with unique uses (Knock, Hold Portal, etc). He will memorize his suite of spells for general purpose (defensive spells, generic blasters, etc) and then maybe a slot or two for the unique spell that might be needed for a particular boss, tactic, etc, that was figured out ahead of time.
Then, when you run into the situation where the Rogue isn't around and the door needs to be opened, pull out the scroll of Knock. Or if retreat is necessary, whip out the Hold Portal to delay your pursuers.
Having a large list of spells, and the ability to fairly cheaply create a oneshot use of any of them, means you really can have the right tool for any situation.
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The Sorcerer simply can't do this as easily. They can try to buy extra scrolls/wands for essential but unique spells they don't want to blow their short list on, however it costs at least double and you still have to find the right person to do it for you (ie, Magic Shops), instead of having control over it yourself.
This is the difference in versatility and flexibility. A well run Wizard tends to have a scroll sheaf set up with a set of utility spells at the ready. Usually in a Handy haversack for locating the right scroll quickly too.
The people I hear saying that the Wizard won't have access (or easy access) to his spell flexibility makes me think that they've probably not played Wizards enough to get into the mentality.
I am looking at the sorcerer like you look at the fighter and barbarian. They are interchangeable components in a party composition, but they each have their own niche and direction.
No disrespect intended, but by that analogy, if the Fighter and Barbarian both use the same progression for their main contribution to the party (Good BAB), why would Sorcerers and Wizards not use the same rate of progression for their main contribution of spellcasting?
Long time lurker, first time poster, blah, blah, blah.
I am looking at the sorcerer like you look at the fighter and barbarian. They are interchangeable components in a party composition, but they each have their own niche and direction.No disrespect intended, but by that analogy, if the Fighter and Barbarian both use the same progression for their main contribution to the party (Good BAB), why would Sorcerers and Wizards not use the same rate of progression for their main contribution of spellcasting?
+1.
Almost the exact same thing popped into my head. I am very much a proponent for unstaggering the sorcerer's spellcasting, so even if it doesn't become official for PF, my group will still (continue to) HR it.Another thing occurred to me, with the official goal of bloodline focus for sorcerers: no 3.5 PrCs advance these, so this might deter sorcerers from multiclassing.
I still fail to see the issue with the spell casting as it is. The different leveled casting adds more to make the class different. I do not see this as an issue. Once ya add in bloodlines it makes it feel even more different. If ya want a wizards spell progression then my friends play a wizard.
another note the BAB argument is flawed. The wizard and sorc have the same BAB so there ya go :D
But really the BAB is not the only thing that set them apart and with the sorc [3.5 one more then this one] ya might as well take it out if your gonna do that, it's a sad wizard clone
But really the BAB is not the only thing that set them apart and with the sorc [3.5 one more then this one] ya might as well take it out if your gonna do that, it's a sad wizard clone
This is the whole crux of the problem. It is also why I'm more or less on board with Jason's idea of changing the class up. As long as the sorcerer is trying to compete with the wizard in power he's always going to be second fiddle. If the sorcerer has a different shtick then the class will be appealing for it's own thing.
another note the BAB argument is flawed. The wizard and sorc have the same BAB so there ya go :D
I think Laithoron was referring to the fact that the main purpose of fighters & barbarians is based on having a full BAB, while the main purpose of sorcerers & wizards is based on arcane spellcasting.
If the Wizard seems no different than the Sorcerer, I suspect it's because people are playing the Wizard wrong. The whole point of the Wizard is that he's like Batman, except everyone he fights is Superman. So he wins by being prepared. He makes sure that he has the right kryptonite for every situation. That's what makes him the master of the arcane arts, and makes the Sorcerer a glass cannon.
Here is the thing... by your definition most people DO play the wizard "wrong".... the vast majority of wizard players do not play the way you talk about. From my experience most wizard players are actually less effective than sorcerer players, and in general people tend to have more FUN playing sorcerers. I've seen entirely to many wizard players who play their character like a sorcerer... only to complain that the class is too inflexible.
The spellcasting classes are powerful directly in relation to the cleverness of the players and the amount of time/ resources the player is willing to put into their character. The wizard to an even larger extent than any of the other casters. The sorcerer is on the other end of that spectrum... easier to learn, easier to play effectively and should stay there. There needs to be a decent arcane class for people who don't have the time/ energy to be Batman.
I think Laithoron was referring to the fact that the main purpose of fighters & barbarians is based on having a full BAB, while the main purpose of sorcerers & wizards is based on arcane spellcasting.
I knew what he meant that's why the smilys in there. But it is flawed the fighter and the barb are nothing alike and the 3.5 sorc is just like a wizard mostly, Its a sad little clone. That was what I was saying. The BAB is a function of a melee class where spellcasting is spellcaster no matter if you get your spells 1 level later or not it is still spellcasting.
Drop one of the melee based clases down one BAB rank and it no longer is a melee class, same can not be said for casters.
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The spellcasting classes are powerful directly in relation to the cleverness of the players and the amount of time/ resources the player is willing to put into their character. The wizard to an even larger extent than any of the other casters. The sorcerer is on the other end of that spectrum... easier to learn, easier to play effectively and should stay there. There needs to be a decent arcane class for people who don't have the time/ energy to be Batman.
Exactly. That's why the Sorcerer needs to continue to exist largely as it is, but should lose the lag.
The spellcasting classes are powerful directly in relation to the cleverness of the players and the amount of time/ resources the player is willing to put into their character. The wizard to an even larger extent than any of the other casters. The sorcerer is on the other end of that spectrum... easier to learn, easier to play effectively and should stay there. There needs to be a decent arcane class for people who don't have the time/ energy to be Batman.Exactly. That's why the Sorcerer needs to continue to exist largely as it is, but should lose the lag.
Um, yeah. I'm not sure I get the point Dennis was making either. He says he agrees with Jason, then says that there needs to be a non-batman full caster?
So people aren't playing Wizards properly in your games? That's a shame. They have been in any of the games I've been in. Unfortunately, personal experience is not as useful in this discussion. Simply put, the Wizard can be that powerful/flexible.
I've seen Fighters played poorly (with poor Feat choice combinations), so does that mean we should make Barbarians worse?
But really the BAB is not the only thing that set them apart and with the sorc [3.5 one more then this one] ya might as well take it out if your gonna do that, it's a sad wizard cloneThis is the whole crux of the problem. It is also why I'm more or less on board with Jason's idea of changing the class up. As long as the sorcerer is trying to compete with the wizard in power he's always going to be second fiddle. If the sorcerer has a different shtick then the class will be appealing for it's own thing.
Wait a second here. Is the Druid just a sad Cleric clone? In Pathfinder, it's even more similar to the Cleric due to being able to choose a Domain over their animal pet!
So Cleric vs Druid..
Druid has same spellcasting progression. Can have one Domain exactly the same.
Has less armor profciencies. Has wildshaping and a few other abilities related to nature instead of the other Domain (so equivalent of 1 spell per level per day lost to get some physical stat boosting and nature related abilities).
Oh, and spontaneous summoning instead of cures.
The real difference is in the spells known. They have a lot of similar spells, but then some wizard spells thrown in, some nature instead of divine spells swapped out, and delayed healing.
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So if the Druid can have full spellcasting progression... benefit from feats, magic items/creations, and PrC stuff at the same rate as the Cleric, and not be considered a "cleric clone" due to his other changes, then why can't the Sorcerer?
I refuse to believe that the only way to distinguish the two Arcane full casters is by reducing one aspect of their effectiveness, when we have a completely valid comparison between the Druid and Cleric not requiring it at all.
Change up the Sorcerer spell list, delay or remove spell access on certain spells that don't seem "sorcerer" focused (and replace with some non-wizard spells, a la Druid method). I'd rather see that than a completely different spell progression.
[
Wait a second here. Is the Druid just a sad Cleric clone? In Pathfinder, it's even more similar to the Cleric due to being able to choose a Domain over their animal pet!
Lets see cleric gets
Spell, channel, domainsDruid gains, spells,Animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy Woodland stride ,Trackless step ,Resist nature’s lure Venom immunity A thousand faces
wizards got
spell, scribe scroll familiar, bounes feats
sorcerers got spell, summon familiar
Now which one is the sad clone?
Pathfinder is at lest giving a reason to have the sorcerer as ss a full class and not a sad wizard clone.
Flamebait
Whatever dude
Seeker, I suggest you look back at my suggestion post.
My point is that the Sorcerer can have the same spellcasting progression AND have bloodlines instead of schools/feats to differentiate.
Part of bloodlines is the spells known, where you can get into things like tapping into Divine spells (like the Druid getting Wizard spells).
A Celestial bloodline Sorcerer getting Divine Power/Favor/Might, etc could fix the "battle sorcerer" option for people. Things like this.
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I don't think anyone is saying the Sorcerer needs to stay with the old "no bloodline, very little distinguishing other than spells per day" 3.5e version.
People are saying that with Bloodlines, you can now forego needing that spell progression difference as a means of differentiating.
If anyone is saying to keep the Sorcerer 3.5e and make him the same casting progression... well... I agree, that's not going to fix anything at all.
FlamebaitWhatever dude
I'm sorry to hear this Dennis. I am in your camp in most threads that you give an opinion on, so it's upsetting that you wouldn't discuss this here.
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to refute your point. That the power level of the class can't be based on personal playing flaws in players.. and that the opinion of "sad clone" doesn't stand up (in pathfinder) with all the new additions.
Seeker, I suggest you look back my my suggestion post.
My point is that the Sorcerer can have the same spellcasting progression AND have bloodlines instead of schools/feats to differentiate.
Part of bloodlines is the spells known, where you can get into things like tapping into Divine spells (like the Druid getting Wizard spells).
A Celestial bloodline Sorcerer getting Divine Power/Favor/Might, etc could fix the "battle sorcerer" option for people. Things like this.
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I don't think anyone is saying the Sorcerer needs to stay with the old "no bloodline, very little distinguishing other than spells per day" 3.5e version.
People are saying that with Bloodlines, you can now forego needing that spell progression difference as a means of differentiating.
I dont see a need to have it unstaged that simple. There is no need what so ever to change this.
The bloodlines do infact breath new life into this class but the staged casting is not an issue with the class.
The spellcasting classes are powerful directly in relation to the cleverness of the players and the amount of time/ resources the player is willing to put into their character. The wizard to an even larger extent than any of the other casters. The sorcerer is on the other end of that spectrum... easier to learn, easier to play effectively and should stay there. There needs to be a decent arcane class for people who don't have the time/ energy to be Batman.Exactly. That's why the Sorcerer needs to continue to exist largely as it is, but should lose the lag.
I can see that. I just think that it's possible to make the sorcerer better by giving him his own thing rather than trying to make him just a wizard for dummies.
I can see that. I just think that it's possible to make the sorcerer better by giving him his own thing rather than trying to make him just a wizard for dummies.
I guess my point in all this is why can't we have both? A simpler to play Arcane caster for those that don't like to micromanage the Wizard, AND something unique in ability and flavour (see my Celestial suggestion in the post I made above).
I really see this as a none issue. As in doing it will not cost anyone anything, or break game balance.
Obiviously casting the spells at the lvl/2 - 1 rate is not game breaking becuase everyone else does it. Also the other classes will be able, even at the minimum level, to cast any spell of that level given enough time. The sorcerer is only going to know 1 spell, which he'll be able to use maybe 4 times a day. Once per fight most likely. It doesn't infringe upon the wizard's source of power or uniqueness, and it offers the chance to even things up. Backwards compatibility suffers some, but not at such a rate that it can't be ignored if needed to run something on the fly.
I dont see a need to have it unstaged that simple. There is no need what so ever to change this.
The bloodlines do infact breath new life into this class but the staged casting is not an issue with the class.
Reasons have been given earlier in this thread.
Some specifically... access to feats, PrCs, magic item crafting. All these are affected as repercussions of the staggered casting. Is it intentionally affected? Is it part of the "balance"?
The fact that you are forced to wait 2 to 3 levels later to access certain things makes the Sorcerer one of those "proud nails".
You might not see or feel a need for this, but part of the Pathfinder goals is to make the game easier to run and play. As a DM, it's easier to run NPCs when all full casters are expected to have the same level of access to feats, PrCs and magic item crafting.
As a player, it's less of a hassle when you play the one full caster that's run differently from the other 3.
This is the benefit for the change, and since by virtue of making the change to an easier to run thing, it should be easy to switch as part of backward compatibility.
FlamebaitWhatever dudeI'm sorry to hear this Dennis. I am in your camp in most threads that you give an opinion on, so it's upsetting that you wouldn't discuss this here.
I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to refute your point. That the power level of the class can't be based on personal playing flaws in players.. and that the opinion of "sad clone" doesn't stand up (in pathfinder) with all the new additions.
Kaisoku,
Your post seemed pretty confrontational to me. I couldn't figure out if your druid/ cleric comparison was a joke or what. The druid and the cleric each have different fairly well established niches in the game. The sorcerer is the "Wizard for Dummies" class... the differences between the classes are described in one sentence:"Sorcerers cast spells spontaneously from a small set of known spells, Wizards prepare them from every spell in the game."
Now try and come up with a comparable sentence regarding the cleric and druid.
There is already a wizard class in the game, the wizard doesn't need a lesser little brother. If the sorcerer were distanced from the wizard the way the druid is from the cleric it would be great.
The new players I've showed the bloodline stuff to love it. There are problems with it but I would like to give Jason a chance to work those out. I wouldn't mind seeing the class get the Wizard's spell progression also but I don't see it as the only path to getting a better sorcerer.
I have yet seen anything said here that makes upstaging the casting a must have fix. Would it be nice sure , is it needed? Not at all.
If the sorcerer were distanced from the wizard the way the druid is from the cleric it would be great.
The new players I've showed the bloodline stuff to love it. There are problems with it but I would like to give Jason a chance to work those out.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Make the sorcerer have the same spell progression, but still be differentiated from the Wizard by using Bloodlines, as much as the Druid is differentiated from the Cleric.
I wouldn't mind seeing the class get the Wizard's spell progression also but I don't see it as the only path to getting a better sorcerer.
We are in complete agreement. I don't want the spell progression change to be the only change either. I think that part may have been lost in translation earlier...
I have yet seen anything said here that makes upstaging the casting a must have fix. Would it be nice sure , is it needed? Not at all.
I agree. It seems a bit odd to be quibbling that the wizard is 1.5 times as powerful as the sorcerer (say), when they're both 6.02x10^23 times as powerful as the fighter (at high levels).
Personally, if having the same progression was really mandatory for some reason, I'd rather see all of the spellcasting classes changed to the sorcerer's progression than vice versa.
I guess my question is: "How would the game be more fun by giving the sorcerer 2nd level spells at class level 3?"
The only thing I really disliked about the 3.5 sorcerer was the complete absence of class abilities.
Personally, if having the same progression was really mandatory for some reason, I'd rather see all of the spellcasting classes changed to the sorcerer's progression than vice versa.I guess my question is: "How would the game be more fun by giving the sorcerer 2nd level spells at class level 3?"
The main spellcasting classes should all have the same spellcasting progression, if that progression were to be dialed back equally I wouldn't have a problem with it.
1. Unfortunately I think there would be a huge uproar if you were to dial back the other caster's spell progression. Wizards especialy are kind of a sacred cow when it comes to power level for whatever reason, and a lot of people get their knickers in a bunch the moment any kind of nerf for them is suggested. So the easier, more acceptable answer becomes to bump up the casting progession of the sorcerer instead. It'll upset less people and you're changing once class rather than 3.
2. The spellcasting break shouldn't be between first and second level spells. Casters are already weak at starting levels no reason to make it worse. The break should problem above 3rd spell level, heck you could have two and it wouldn't break the game. Unfortnately this brings us back to the hangup with nerfs and changing too much from 3.5
To answer your Question. The game would be more fun for sorcerer players because they would be able to contribute more meaningful at all levels of the game, rather than just being a drag until they get high enough level that the lag becomes less of an issue. Take for instance a group at 3rd level or 5th level. When you compare the sorcerer to other classes they really don't bring much to the table. This affects everyones enjoyment of the game. Also by getting rid of the disparity in casters it becomes just a little bit easier to plan adventures, the differences between odd level sorcerers and other casters is colossal and has some design consequences when it comes to designing adventures. Smoothing out this bump can only make the game more enjoyable for everyone.
To answer your Question. The game would be more fun for sorcerer players because they would be able to contribute more meaningful at all levels of the game, rather than just being a drag until they get high enough level that the lag becomes less of an issue.
Specifically, do you actually know someone who played a sorcerer and said "This is not fun because I'm not contributing meaningfully"? I'm just wondering if people are arguing "I don't play sorcerers myself, but hypothetically I don't think it would be fun."
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Specifically, do you actually know someone who played a sorcerer and said "This is not fun because I'm not contributing meaningfully"? I'm just wondering if people are arguing "I don't play sorcerers myself, but hypothetically I don't think it would be fun."
I have seen at least three different sorcerer players, including myself, get really frustrated at 5th level. It's really the only level where it's a problem, as far as I've seen, but the level where you are stuck with scorching ray and the wizard has fireball or you've got cat's grace and he's got haste is really annoying.
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Specifically, do you actually know someone who played a sorcerer and said "This is not fun because I'm not contributing meaningfully"?
No, because that would require someone to actually be dumb enough to play a sorceror...
:)
Seriously though, the only time I've seen a PC sorceror, it's played by an inexperienced player, or it's a low-level, non-serious game, possibly 'evil-PCs' game, or where everyone's a kobold, and all players know the game will fold long before the lack of 2nd level spells will be a problem.
I've played a sorcerer, and have been fairly satisfied with the results... but I went in with my eyes open to the fact that I am NOT an arcanist, I'm a guy with some tricks, and then multiclassed to make those tricks more worthwhile. The one time I did a straight sorcerer, I made the 'standard' choices that are usually listed in sorcerer's spell list threads, and was still a little disappointed. There was so much I couldn't do, even when I knew what to expect coming up. If I had played a wizard I would have been better prepared in most cases than I was with the sorcerer. The fact people would look at me and say, "Cast xyz" to which I would reply, "I don't get that until next level." Earned me looks of, "and why did you take that class again?" Now I think the bloodlines could fix this, but the sorcerer is still not, and will probably never be, a true arcanist like the wizard is.
Specifically, do you actually know someone who played a sorcerer and said "This is not fun because I'm not contributing meaningfully"? I'm just wondering if people are arguing "I don't play sorcerers myself, but hypothetically I don't think it would be fun."I have seen at least three different sorcerer players, including myself, get really frustrated at 5th level. It's really the only level where it's a problem, as far as I've seen, but the level where you are stuck with scorching ray and the wizard has fireball or you've got cat's grace and he's got haste is really annoying.
Right; I'd say that 3rd and 5th levels are where you feel it the most. But that's really just a matter of impatience, not "I'm not contributing anything, I might as well be playing a commoner!!1!!" I'm usually just as impatient to get a new level of spells/powers when I play a cleric or psion (say).
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I dont see a need to have it unstaged that simple. There is no need what so ever to change this.
The bloodlines do infact breath new life into this class but the staged casting is not an issue with the class.
Except the staggered casting is an issue with the class. The lag produces a whole host of problems with prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and magic items. The increased feat rate makes it slightly more tolerable, but the Sorcerer still has to wait til 5th level to qualify for feats the Wizard has access to at 3rd level.
The staggered casting doesn't add anything to the class except headaches, goes overboard in its attempt to balance the class, and simply doesn't need to exist.
Even the backwards compatibility argument is suspect, since the changes already made to the Sorcerer via the inclusion of bloodlines (which I fully support) already make the Pathfinder Sorcerer an involved conversion.
Right; I'd say that 3rd and 5th levels are where you feel it the most. But that's really just a matter of impatience, not "I'm not contributing anything, I might as well be playing a commoner!!1!!" I'm usually just as impatient to get a new level of spells/powers when I play a cleric or psion (say).Specifically, do you actually know someone who played a sorcerer and said "This is not fun because I'm not contributing meaningfully"? I'm just wondering if people are arguing "I don't play sorcerers myself, but hypothetically I don't think it would be fun."I have seen at least three different sorcerer players, including myself, get really frustrated at 5th level. It's really the only level where it's a problem, as far as I've seen, but the level where you are stuck with scorching ray and the wizard has fireball or you've got cat's grace and he's got haste is really annoying.
Ironically the sorcerer I played was having a blast through 3rd and 5th levels using enlarge person and his claw attacks, it's when he got higher level that the stuff falls apart. The changes Jason made do a very good job with making the class more fun and interesting at lower levels. It's higher levels where the sorcerer really starts to fall behind.
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I guess my question is: "How would the game be more fun by giving the sorcerer 2nd level spells at class level 3?"
Since I am playing a Sorcerer right now, and we have all just achieved 4th level, I can tell you exactly how the game would have been more fun if I had access to 2nd level spells at 3rd level: I wouldn't have had to sit through the other players, including two full casters, mocking me (literally) with their second level spells.
It's like every other level, the other full casters are like "I got a new spell level. Did you get a new spell level? No? Oh, sucks to be you."
Then, on the alternate levels, it's like "Woot! I got a new spell level." "Yeah, I got mine last level. Hah hah, sucks to be you."
It's highly irritating.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'd like to see the staggering changed slightly:
level 1 - 1st level spells
level 3 - 2nd level spells
level 5 - 3rd level spells
level 8 - 4th level spells
And then continuing as normal.
The only two levels that I really think are hard on sorcerers are 4th (When they're still firing the same type of spells they did at level 1) and 5th, where as others have mentioned the sorc just can't keep up with the firepower of the rest of the party.
Except the staggered casting is an issue with the class. The lag produces a whole host of problems with prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and magic items. The increased feat rate makes it slightly more tolerable, but the Sorcerer still has to wait til 5th level to qualify for feats the Wizard has access to at 3rd level.
The staggered casting doesn't add anything to the class except headaches, goes overboard in its attempt to balance the class, and simply doesn't need to exist.
Well you think it is an issue. The wizard is a learned caster someone who uses books and formula and study's how and why magic works. A sorcerer is a self taut trail and error oh my gods I have no clue what I am a doing caster
Staging fits the theme and feel of the class now even more. They really dont know how they do it. They dont understand there spells the way a wizard does.
So yeah they should be slower at unlocking higher spellcasting knowledge
And the PRC's are not an issue if ya want that one at 3rd well play a wizard. How is that any diffent then a prc that needs a BAB of +6?
Is the BAB system horribly flawed because a ranger can take it at 6th level but a rogue cant take it to 8th?
The PRC's as a reason to kill staged casting is a non argument
Except the staggered casting is an issue with the class. The lag produces a whole host of problems with prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and magic items. The increased feat rate makes it slightly more tolerable, but the Sorcerer still has to wait til 5th level to qualify for feats the Wizard has access to at 3rd level.I dont see a need to have it unstaged that simple. There is no need what so ever to change this.
The bloodlines do infact breath new life into this class but the staged casting is not an issue with the class.
Indeed, this is frustrating. If the casting isn't fixed then the prereqs should be restated so the classes get things at the same level.
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Except the staggered casting is an issue with the class. The lag produces a whole host of problems with prerequisites for feats, prestige classes, and magic items.
If you've ever given out treasure from an NPC party that contained a sorceror, you will be plagued for ever after with cries of "Who made this scroll?", "Did he make this scroll?", "Where did we find this scroll?", "Did he buy this scroll or make it himself?", "I think he made this scroll", "Are you sure it's only a 5d6 fireball, not 6d6?", "I think it should be 6d6", "No, because it's always minimum level, no matter who makes it. It says so on page XX", "Nuh-uh! That just says the market price is always minimum.", "Well, do we even know it was him that made it?", "Who made this scroll?"...etc.
GAAAAHHH!!!
GAAAAHHH!!!
There is definitely a problem with that but it has nothing to do with the sorcerer class.
If you've ever given out treasure from an NPC party that contained a sorceror, you will be plagued for ever after with cries of "Who made this scroll?", "Did he make this scroll?", "Where did we find this scroll?", "Did he buy this scroll or make it himself?", "I think he made this scroll", "Are you sure it's only a 5d6 fireball, not 6d6?", "I think it should be 6d6", "No, because it's always minimum level, no matter who makes it. It says so on page XX", "Nuh-uh! That just says the market price is always minimum.", "Well, do we even know it was him that made it?", "Who made this scroll?"...etc.GAAAAHHH!!!
HEH let me field this set
1."Who made this scroll?"...It dosnt have a name on it2."Did he make this scroll?"....It doesnt have a name on it
3."Where did we find this scroll?"...On his body, chest underwear box
4."Did he buy this scroll or make it himself?"..again there is no name on it
5."I think he made this scroll"....MAYHAP
6."Are you sure it's only a 5d6 fireball, not 6d6?"...That is what I said
7."I think it should be 6d6"...well it's not
8."No, because it's always minimum level, no matter who makes it. It says so on page XX"..... I couldn't tell you and he is dead so it does 5d6
9."Nuh-uh! That just says the market price is always minimum."..It does not matter
10."Well, do we even know it was him that made it?"...ask him..oh yeah he's dead
11."Who made this scroll?"....it has no name on it
12....anything say anything......well what ya know the scroll was a fake scroll it has NO SPELL on it after all
I have yet seen anything said here that makes upstaging the casting a must have fix. Would it be nice sure , is it needed? Not at all.
Let me ask you this then. Would the sorcerer become unbalanced if its spell progession was brought in line with the other primary casters?
If the answer to that is, no upgrading the spell progression would not unbalance the class, then the old progression must be underpowered and is deserving of fixing.
The best reason IMO oppinion to upgrade the spell progression rather than trying to rebalance by tacking on other class features is because the more other stuff you add the more it takes away from the primary draw of the class, its simplicity. Let's have a good mechanical varient to the Vancian magic system without necessarily having to play a reject from X-men.
Let me ask you this then. Would the sorcerer become unbalanced if its spell progession was brought in line with the other primary casters?
Not sure really. But then again it fits the flavor to not have the same pergression
The best reason IMO oppinion to upgrade the spell progression rather than trying to rebalance by tacking on other class features is because the more other stuff you add the more it takes away from the primary draw of the class, its simplicity. Let's have a good mechanical varient to the Vancian magic system without necessarily having to play a reject from X-men.
So you want it to be just what it was. A needless wizard clone?
Gonna say yet again, the bloodlines breath life into what was a clone a waste of space it was a subclass of wizard. Nothing more.Now it have something more then full and a small number of none spells that sit it apart. The staged casting is part of the classes feel and one of the few things it had that set it apart.
So no unstaging is uneeded
That and symbol of death was my first though...but some my find that too hash...sissys
Let me ask you this then. Would the sorcerer become unbalanced if its spell progession was brought in line with the other primary casters?
Not sure really. But then again it fits the flavor to not have the same pergression
The best reason IMO oppinion to upgrade the spell progression rather than trying to rebalance by tacking on other class features is because the more other stuff you add the more it takes away from the primary draw of the class, its simplicity. Let's have a good mechanical varient to the Vancian magic system without necessarily having to play a reject from X-men.
So you want it to be just what it was. A needless wizard clone?
Gonna say yet again, the bloodlines breath life into what was a clone a waste of space it was a subclass of wizard. Nothing more.Now it have something more then full and a small number of none spells that sit it apart. The staged casting is part of the classes feel and one of the few things it had that set it apart.
So no unstaging is uneeded
I'm not sure that something that as done for supposed balance reasons has anything to do with flavor. Not only that if their spell progression were the same I am utterly unconvinced that anyone, other than perhaps yourself, would say that had lost anything flavorwise.
I don't want another wizard clone, and since they use an entirely different spellcasting system I have a hard time seeing how they're a clone. I would say they're more different from a wizard than a cleric is as far as play style goes. The beauty and appeal of the class is its simplicity, why destroy that by adding all sorts of extra fiddly bits instead of making it better at what so many people like about it in the first place.
Anyway I'm left to wonder how many people out there believe that having a spell progession lag somehow adds to the flavor of the class.
I'll state it again, if upping the spellcasting progression doesn't break or unbalance the class, then it is broken in its current state.
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Indeed, this is frustrating. If the casting isn't fixed then the prereqs should be restated so the classes get things at the same level.
That's an awesome idea. Now we just have to convince WOTC to reprint the entire Complete series, the entire Races series, and the other theme splatbooks, all updated to Pathfinder!
OH WAIT.