This single change will go a long, long way towards bringing parity between the sorcerer and the wizard. Staggered casting says "training-wheels caster," the guy who doesn't want to play around with serious magic whom you point at a problem and have him fireball it away, and that is not the image the sorcerer should have.
At the very very least, please give the sorcerer his bloodline spells known when he gains the new spell level. Otherwise, he only has the one spell choice, which means he basically has to wait yet another level before he's casting his max-level spells truly spontaneously.
Maybe I'm just being dense but what are you talking about?
Casting Nth level spells at level (2N-1) instead of level (2N).
It's not backwards compatible, though. (Insert usual retort about "X isn't backwards compatible either!!")
Sorcerer gets a bonus 1st level bloodline spell at 3rd level, not 1st, for example.
Instead of just moving the bonus spells down 1 level, I'd shift the sorcerer's whole spell progression up to match the wizard's (2nd level spells at CL 3rd). Even with that change, I don't foresee a whole lot of people forsaking the wizard to play a sorcerer -- the two classes have totally different areas of focus (casting a few spells a lot of times, vs. preparing exactly the spells needed for a particular task/mission).
Instead of just moving the bonus spells down 1 level, I'd shift the sorcerer's whole spell progression up to match the wizard's (2nd level spells at CL 3rd). Even with that change, I don't foresee a whole lot of people forsaking the wizard to play a sorcerer -- the two classes have totally different areas of focus (casting a few spells a lot of times, vs. preparing exactly the spells needed for a particular task/mission).
That's what I meant. The Sorcerer should get the new level of spells at the same time that the Wizard does, and the Cleric does, and even the Druid does. The bonus spells known should get unstaggered as well.
Casting Nth level spells at level (2N-1) instead of level (2N).
It's not backwards compatible, though. (Insert usual retort about "X isn't backwards compatible either!!")
(I'm inserting it anyway, since the objection is specious whether you were excepting to get called on it or not).
How is it any more "non-backwards compatible" than, say, completely changing the rage system, or altering specialized wizards such that they're hardly recognizable anymore? Given how few Sorcerer PrCs there are anyway, and almost all PrCs have a Skill rank requirement anyway, when could it possibly pose a problem?
Director of Games
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Although I can understand the desire here, this change is not within my scope... for two primary reasons.
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).
Of course there are a lot of opinions on this matter... so lets hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Although I can understand the desire here, this change is not within my scope... for two primary reasons.
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
Of course there are a lot of opinions on this matter... so lets hear them.
I think either removing the level lag in receiving a higher spell level, or removing the metamagic casting time delay would be cool. I would prefer, honestly, the removal of difficulty pulling off metamagic.
Despite the very nice additions the sorceror has received, I just can't give up my love of wizards for versatility in both spell lists and skill points. Giving sorcerors the flexibility boost in being able to easily apply metamagic would be my personal preference, rather than the "normal" spell level access.
I disagree Jason:
Sorcerer at level 20: 54 castings (6 x 9 levels)
Wizard at level 20: 48 castings + 10 first level spells + 7 spells from school = 65 castings (if the wizard takes the one level lower for another casting ability he actually gets 72 castings)
It looks even if you just look at the charts... but when you take into account the school powers of a wizard he complete bombs the sorcerer.
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
This isn't even strictly speaking true. With the change to Specialist casters, Wizards now end up with just about 6/day, though granted they have to choose one-to-two of them far ahead of time. That said, I wouldn't mind dropping the Sorcerer to 5/day, or even 4/day. 6/day seems to indicate that they are more about quantity than quality, which is, if anything, the exact opposite of how things are.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
Abilities that are fun, but largely inconsequential when it comes to what the sorcerer is actually supposed to be doing, namely casting spells. And the Wizard gets two more feats, all of which are directly related to spellcasting, whereas the Sorcerer's feat list is a mere 3, takes much longer to get, and has at most one metamagic feat (and the rest tend to be unrelated to spellcasting).
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).
I really don't think this would tip the balance. And frankly, I think the unstaggered casting is an important enough change that I would be willing to drop a lot for it.
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Director of Games
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1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.This isn't even strictly speaking true. With the change to Specialist casters, Wizards now end up with just about 6/day, though granted they have to choose one-to-two of them far ahead of time. That said, I wouldn't mind dropping the Sorcerer to 5/day, or even 4/day. 6/day seems to indicate that they are more about quantity than quality, which is, if anything, the exact opposite of how things are.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.Abilities that are fun, but largely inconsequential when it comes to what the sorcerer is actually supposed to be doing, namely casting spells. And the Wizard gets two more feats, all of which are directly related to spellcasting, whereas the Sorcerer's feat list is a mere 3, takes much longer to get, and has at most one metamagic feat (and the rest tend to be unrelated to spellcasting).
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).I really don't think this would tip the balance. And frankly, I think the unstaggered casting is an important enough change that I would be willing to drop a lot for it.
Not everything comes down to spellcasting.. and for the sorcerer, this is an avenue I would like to actively explore. Most classes have a solid niche that they are attempting to fulfill and it seems like the Wiz and Sor are both aiming at the same one (arcane caster). I decided that since the Wiz is more settled in that roll, the sorcerer needs another focus. Bloodlines was the answer to that... so if you do not feel that the bloodlines go far enough in helping them fill that niche, then that is where we need to work...
Increasing the progression is not my preferred solution.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Not everything comes down to spellcasting.. and for the sorcerer, this is an avenue I would like to actively explore. Most classes have a solid niche that they are attempting to fulfill and it seems like the Wiz and Sor are both aiming at the same one (arcane caster). I decided that since the Wiz is more settled in that roll, the sorcerer needs another focus.
They intentionally fill the same role, because a lot of people really want to play the arcane caster but hate preparing spells. As such, the sorcerer needs to be able to stand up against the wizard, since his whole purpose is as an alternative option.
They intentionally fill the same role, because a lot of people really want to play the arcane caster but hate preparing spells. As such, the sorcerer needs to be able to stand up against the wizard, since his whole purpose is as an alternative option.
The thing is, there are lots of people out there who are playing 3.5 sorcerers already. Maybe not in your group, but I haven't seen any particular bias towards wizards over sorcerers in games I've played in. That doesn't mean that wizards aren't better (I think they are), but sorcerers still "stand up" as far as having fun is concerned (IMO).
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I agree that the staggered casting needs to die. When the Sorcerer was first introduced at the dawn of 3.0, it seemed to me that the designers were *terrified* that it would be overpowered, and so slowed down the spellcasting progression, took away the bonus feats and gimped the use of metamagic feats, leaving the CharOp forums abuzz with Cleric, Druid and Wizard builds, with the Sorcerer being the only full progression spellcasting class that was considered a trap.
In my opinion, the *vastly* smaller spell-list of the Spontaneous caster is the *only* balancing mechanic needed against the Prepared caster who can have every single core spell, ever (FOR FREE!, in the case of a Cleric or Druid). Again, in my opinion, the Sorcerer could have the same level aquisition as a Cleric, Druid or Wizard, the same ability to use Metamagic Feats (which already are costing a feat, in addition to boosting the level of the spell-slot required) *and* the bonus Feats of a Wizard, and still be balanced against that Wizard, because the Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells per day, and may be able to choose flexibly from his dinky little list of Spells Known, but will never be able to say, 'Okay, let's rest here, I'll prepare a Dispel Magic and a Knock tomorrow so that we can see what's behind this magically-trapped door.'
Even with the same bonus feats as a Wizard, even with the same spell progression, even with equivalent use of Metamagic, I think that the Wizard would remain an attractive choice over the Sorcerer, thanks to it's infinite flexibility. It certainly, even with all of the above improvements to the Sorcerer, would remain my first choice, as I have never understood the drive to play a 'wizard' who only knew a couple spells per level and basically was a walking Wand of Fireballs. If I wanted that, I'd play a Warlock and be able to cast my attack invocations *all day long,* and not just a couple times more than a Wizard. (And sometimes not even more, in the case of a Specialist with Intelligence bonus spells, now that the SRD Sorcerer has been 'updated' to no longer gain bonus spells for a high Charisma!)
I've never, since the beginning of 3rd edition, thought that the Sorcerer warranted being it's own class. It's just a Wizard who does things *a tiny bit differently* by not using Vancian memorization, and gets horribly, brutally *punished* for it.
And, for extra special lets-throw-backwards-compatibility-out-the-window-ness, I'd be equally thrilled if Clerics, Druids, Bards, Paladins and Rangers (etc) all had Prepared or Spontaneous options. The Spontaneous option would get a small little handful of Spells Known, cast flexibly and with more spell-slots than a Prepared caster of equal level, while the Prepared caster would get a spellbook/prayerbook/hymnal that allowed *potentially* unlimited flexibility at the cost of having to prepare them at the beginning of the day. I'd love to play a Spontaneous Druid who only knows three or four spells per level, but can cast them flexibly (yes, even knowing taht this would be a huge step down from the traditional Cleric or Druid, who gets their entire spell list, automatically), or a Prepared Bard who has a sheaf of papers that he goes over in the morning that he's collected over his travels from various and sundry sources.
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Director of Games
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They intentionally fill the same role, because a lot of people really want to play the arcane caster but hate preparing spells. As such, the sorcerer needs to be able to stand up against the wizard, since his whole purpose is as an alternative option.
They did... and I do not want them to anymore. There is not enough room in the core rules for two classes that try to fill the exact same niche. Lets look for other options to balance out the sorcerer. After all, their caster level and spell effectiveness does not drop, just the access, which causes less of a lag than most folks realize.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Edit: I should note that I realize that there is a slight difference in their general role and function, but it is so minor that I am particularly interested in opening it up.
In my opinion, the *vastly* smaller spell-list of the Spontaneous caster is the *only* balancing mechanic needed against the Prepared caster who can have every single core spell, ever (FOR FREE!, in the case of a Cleric or Druid). Again, in my opinion, the Sorcerer could have the same level aquisition as a Cleric, Druid or Wizard, the same ability to use Metamagic Feats (which already are costing a feat, in addition to boosting the level of the spell-slot required) *and* the bonus Feats of a Wizard, and still be balanced against that Wizard, because the Sorcerer may be able to cast more spells per day, and may be able to choose flexibly from his dinky little list of Spells Known, but will never be able to say, 'Okay, let's rest here, I'll prepare a Dispel Magic and a Knock tomorrow so that we can see what's behind this magically-trapped door.'
I agree with this. Any maybe to balance the Sorcerer without staggered casting let wizards get 3 new spells to learn per new level.
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Director of Games
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Edit: I should note that I realize that there is a slight difference in their general role and function, but it is so minor that I am particularly interested in opening it up.Out of curiosity, what niche are you wanting sorcerers to fill?
When it comes to the sorcerer, they should be all about their bloodline. It should help define their preferred spells and their way of functioning in the group. I want to use a Druid/Cleric analogy, but I think that is going a bit too far afield. This probably means that the bloodlines themselves need to be strengthened a bit and there is a good thread going on about add on abilities that might help defined sorcerers a bit further.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Jason -- I see where you're headed with that -- and I like it a lot. Having sorcerers fill their own niche through bloodline powers would be awesome.
As it is, they get too few (relatively poor) bloodline abilities, and so they remain focused on spellcasting. Maybe stealing ideas from the Dragon Disciple and other classes, to create a hybrid sorcerer/bloodline disciple class would be the way to go? Maybe start with a bard (medium BAB, slightly worse spellcasting progression) and replace all the bard's class-specific abilties with bloodline things? (P.S. That would be a lot of work -- like designing 6+ new classes).
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They did... and I do not want them to anymore. There is not enough room in the core rules for two classes that try to fill the exact same niche. Lets look for other options to balance out the sorcerer. After all, their caster level and spell effectiveness does not drop, just the access, which causes less of a lag than most folks realize.
I've always perceived Wizards as "general-purpose" and Sorcerers as "highly specialized", particularly as blasters.
Is there a specific problem caused by the level lag, or is this request simply a desire for symmetry across spellcasting classes?
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Is there a specific problem caused by the level lag, or is this request simply a desire for symmetry across spellcasting classes?
My issues with it are both practical and nonsensical.
From a practical standpoint, I don't think the Sorcerer is nearly as overpowered as the 'death by committee' designers seemed to think when they made it into a badly-mutilated Wizard clone. The level staggering, IMO, is totally unecessary from a balance standpoint, and while I've read some staggering (pun intended) Wizard optimizations, I've yet to see a Sorcerer regarded as 'optimal,' let alone 'overpowered.'
From a nonsensical standpoint, yeah, it's also symmetry. The other three full-progression classes (Cleric, Druid and Wizard) all use the same progression, and, not coincidentally, IMO, are usually regarded as the three strongest classes in the game. I like everything to follow a standard progression, and things that seem to deviate pointlessly from the standard stick out and bug me with their shameless deviancy. Down, nail that sticks out! I pound you!
Although I can understand the desire here, this change is not within my scope... for two primary reasons.
1. Sorcerers get quite a few more spell slots than wizards, and the level lag is a balancing mechanic.
2. Sorcerer bloodlines grant quite a few more abilities than wizard arcane schools.
The end result here is that if we pulled the level lag, sorcerer would be a superior choice to wizard (as many consider it to be right now).
Of course there are a lot of opinions on this matter... so lets hear them.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
While sorcerers get more spells/day, this stops becomming a factor very quickly. As someone who has played both a wizard and a sorcerer, I can saftly say that both run out of spells quickly at low levels, and almost never run out at higher levels, so in my opinion, one class being able to cast more per day isn't overpowering really when you consider that wizards get access to higher level spells more early.
Not just wizards in fact, truthfully, I'm playing a sorcerer in my current campaign, and although our cleric isn't the most active spellcaster, it does grate me a little my spellcasting (the only thing my character is supposed to really be good for) lags behind the cleric's, who not only gets spells, but higher hit dice, better armour and weapons, better attack rolls, and spell like abilities. Even if you will argue that a sorcerer should lag spell levels behind the wizard, I could never understood why they would lag behind the cleric and druid too, even though sorcerers are supposed to be better casters than them.
While the bloodlines are a boost, most don't boost what the sorcerer needs most, and thats spellcasting power. All in all, if I'm choosing to play a straight sorcerer I'm going to prefer a boost to spell rather than somthing like claws or energy resistance. Natural weapons, energy resistance etc suit characters that are likely to wade in the center of melee and abosorb all the damage. Sorcerers simply aren't ment to.
To keep the sorcerers spellcasting powers up to the same standards as a wizards, I would say either stop them from lagging behind or alter the bloodlines to be more magic focused.
I like what Mr. Epic Meepo points to, namely a way for bloodlines to amplify their existing spellcasting.
Perhaps the feat list for bloodlines needs to be changed somewhat, or it could be a bonus on DC or penetration for certain spells, or some special metamagic tied to certain spells.
These should give more oumph, while keeping the spell progression as is.
Just ideas. I'll try to come up with precise ideas.
DW
They did... and I do not want them to anymore. There is not enough room in the core rules for two classes that try to fill the exact same niche.
I... I don't quite know what to say. That isn't the sorcerer anymore. Talk about backwards compatibility problems: every single 3E supplement assumes that you can swap your sorcerer for a wizard, and vice versa!
And if you're looking for classes that fill the exact same niche, I would like to direct your attention to the Barbarian and Fighter. The fighter gets bonus feats, the barbarian gets rage, but both are basically the bruiser of the group. There are important flavor differences between the two of them and there are some things each is better at, but each is doing essentially the same thing.
The Sorcerer and the Wizard are doing the same thing. They're both casting the same spells (much like the Fighter and Barbarian are using mostly the same feats, though the Fighter gets more of them), but the wizard is all about bookkeeping and planning every day, whereas the sorcerer is more about reacting, where you just cast and don't quibble about the details, because you don't have to. The difference between spontaneous and prepared casting is a deal-breaker for a lot of people. "Spontaneous arcane caster" and "prepared arcane caster" are vastly different to play in many ways. More than what they do, it's how they do it.
If you're trying to reduce redundancy, the only way to really do it is with generic classes. Warrior, Expert, Mage, and sort out the differences with huge lists of "Warrior Talents," "Expert Tricks," and "Mage Masteries." 3E D&D has redundant classes, classes which are mostly the same but with small differences to distinguish them. Given how lax 3.5 is about what can constitute a base class, even in core, the differences between spontaneous and prepared are important enough to justify two classes. If nothing else, people want a spontaneous arcane caster, and frankly I'm shocked that you would seriously consider turning that into an even less viable option.
Sorry about the rant, but the sorcerer's been the redheaded stepchild of the Big Four casters for over eight years now, and it would be a shame to not even try for parity now that we've got the chance.
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Director of Games
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I am looking at the sorcerer like you look at the fighter and barbarian. They are interchangeable components in a party composition, but they each have their own niche and direction. As he stood in 3.5, the sorcerer was very similar to the wizard. I am hoping to diversify the class a bit more and that means adding abilities that do not exactly mimic the wizard.
Hence, the spellcasting is not going to match. But, I do want to add abilities, through bloodlines, that give a sorcerer a focus, a theme to work with other than "I am just like a wizard, only spontaneous". That is a dull cop-out in my opinion and something I am trying to rectify. While I appreciate the comments in this thread, it is not a direction I am interested in pursuing at this time.
Lets move along folks...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I love the idea of the Sorcerer being more defined through their bloodlines. Indeed, I already like a lot what has been done with the Sorcerer in the Pathfinder RPG.
When it comes to the sorcerer, they should be all about their bloodline. It should help define their preferred spells and their way of functioning in the group. I want to use a Druid/Cleric analogy, but I think that is going a bit too far afield. This probably means that the bloodlines themselves need to be strengthened a bit and there is a good thread going on about add on abilities that might help defined sorcerers a bit further.
Jason,
What about giving the sorcerer his bonus bloodline spell 2 levels earlier and giving the sorcerer 1 spell/ day for that level. So after first level the sorcerer would gain spells at the same level as the wizard but would only be able to cast his bloodline bonus spell until the next level.
So a sorcerer with the destined bloodline would gain Blur at 3rd level and be able to cast it once per day (likely twice with CHA bonus). This evens out the spell progression so the sorcerer is equal to the wizard but only in their bloodline spells, everything else would be 1 level behind.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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When it comes to the sorcerer, they should be all about their bloodline. It should help define their preferred spells and their way of functioning in the group. I want to use a Druid/Cleric analogy, but I think that is going a bit too far afield. This probably means that the bloodlines themselves need to be strengthened a bit and there is a good thread going on about add on abilities that might help defined sorcerers a bit further.Jason,
What about giving the sorcerer his bonus bloodline spell 2 levels earlier and giving the sorcerer 1 spell/ day for that level. So after first level the sorcerer would gain spells at the same level as the wizard but would only be able to cast his bloodline bonus spell until the next level.
So a sorcerer with the destined bloodline would gain Blur at 3rd level and be able to cast it once per day (likely twice with CHA bonus). This evens out the spell progression so the sorcerer is equal to the wizard but only in their bloodline spells, everything else would be 1 level behind.
Denis, I think that's a great idea. It will strengthen the sorcerer's tie with their bloodline by having them cast their bloodline spells more.
This single change will go a long, long way towards bringing parity between the sorcerer and the wizard. Staggered casting says "training-wheels caster," the guy who doesn't want to play around with serious magic whom you point at a problem and have him fireball it away, and that is not the image the sorcerer should have.
The TS Campaign for Great Gaming fully endorses this message. I don't think it's a balance issue so much as a perception issue. Players see that sorcs get their spell levels one class level later than other full casters and immediately, that's a mark against the sorc even though the spell level delay doesn't actually have much impact one way or the other. If a class starts with 1st level spells right from the get-go at level 1, and ends up with 9th level spells by level 20, it is simple foolishness to think that delaying spell levels by 1 level in between is meaningfully affecting balance.
The only reason the 3e designers delayed the sorc spell levels at all was they thought that sorcs needed an extra discouragement from crafting items. Now that we've been playing 3e for...oh it doesn't matter how many years...we all know that not getting any bonus feats to spend on crafting feats is plenty discouragement. Ergo, the delayed spell levels are simply a nuisance, so let's fix them!
TS
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Hah! As long as we're tossing out crazy, long shot sorc adjustments, here's one:
.. a very good sorc idea ...
When we kicked off RotRL, we had a player playing a "witch". He did exactly this, playing a sorcerer but selecting his spells from any list. The added spell selection and spontaneous casting made him different from the party's wizard but did not interfere with the bard, who was a more balanced character, capable of playing the role of sage, face, skill monkey and occasional melee attacker. Throw in some sugary goodness like bloodline abilities, and you can end up with a great caster that operates in a fashion much different than the wizard. Combine this idea with the "bloodline spell comes earlier" suggestion from above and you have a viable option to the wizard without competing directly with the wizard.
I myself think they need to stay staged.
As for the spell list ideal I myself have allowed players to chose what list to use, But they must stick with it
so WIZARD,CLERIC OR DRUID LIST
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I absolutely cannot stand the staggered casting level of the Sorcerer. It is simply frustrating and annoying, creating endless headaches regarding magic items and scrolls and questions about the caster level of those items.
It also creates problems with prestige classes and a large number of feats. For example, many of the Reserve Feats from Complete Mage -- highly appropriate for the Sorcerer -- require access to second level spells. This means Wizards can get the feats at 3rd level when they both gain a new feat and gain access to 2nd level spells. Under 3.5, the sorcerer had to wait till 6th level before having access to these feats, while in Pathfinder they have to wait till 5th level.
Many feats and prestige classes that require 2nd level spellcasting ability screw the Sorcerer over like this, making many character builds difficult or impossible to accomplish with the Sorcerer, but possible with the Wizard. Of course, frequently the untrained nature of the Sorcerer better fits the concept!
I don't think staggering the Sorcerer's does anything to serve game balance, it just creates difficulties and makes the Sorcerer seem like a slowpoke compared to the other primary caster classes.
So why is the sorcerer the one who gets thrown under the bus?
They are the newer class, bards used to cast spells like a wizard if you recall.
If the intent is to change sorcerers such that their spellcasting abilities are secondary to their bloodline abilities, then I have to say that you aren't updating the sorcerer anymore; you are creating a new class that happens to cast spells as though it were a sorcerer. Though characters gaining their defining features from strange bloodlines are cool, they bear no resemblance whatsoever to any base class in the 3.5 rules.
Bravo, Jason! This is exactly the kind of reaction that says you're on the right path.
They did... and I do not want them to anymore. There is not enough room in the core rules for two classes that try to fill the exact same niche.I... I don't quite know what to say. That isn't the sorcerer anymore. Talk about backwards compatibility
I love it. This is so cool, I don't know quite what to say either, except "Bravo Jason!"
Giving sorcerors the flexibility boost in being able to easily apply metamagic would be my personal preference, rather than the "normal" spell level access.
I agree with Jess Door, although I'm OK with easily applying only those metamagic feats that best fit the bloodline. It looks like each bloodline gets its own bonus metamagic feat, so you've already thought about that. Neat! I wonder if that one feat could somehow work even better for the sorcerer than the wizard, to emphasize the metamagic specialization? I see that there are bloodline powers that enhance magic in other interesting ways outside the standard metamagic mechanic, such as the Fey bloodline re-rolling checks to overcome spell resistance.
The choice of bloodlines is brilliant, anticipating all the ideas I'd most like to play. I especially like the Fey bloodline. Please stick with your decision to further improve the bloodlines rather than eliminate any differentiation (legacy or otherwise) between sorcerer and wizard. Any benefit offered by regularity (real or not) lacks appeal compared to this new direction.
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The choice of bloodlines is brilliant, anticipating all the ideas I'd most like to play. I especially like the Fey bloodline. Please stick with your decision to further improve the bloodlines rather than eliminate any differentiation (legacy or otherwise) between sorcerer and wizard. Any benefit offered by regularity (real or not) lacks...
At the risk of this sounding like a "Me too", I have to admit that I'd never given the 3.5 Sorceror a second glance. When reading through the Beta and hitting the bloodlines section, I determined that my first Pathfinder character was going to be a Gnomish Infernal Sorceror. There is so much flavour in the bloodlines.
So, can we take this further please? Can we have the class defined as someone whose primary abilities are determined by his bloodline, and who happens to be a spontaneous (arcane) spellcaster? For any backwards compatibility problems we already have the solution of being able to drop a wizard into the place of an old-style sorceror. Lets have something new and fun.
As he stood in 3.5, the sorcerer was very similar to the wizard. I am hoping to diversify the class a bit more and that means adding abilities that do not exactly mimic the wizard.Why is the sorcerer to blame for the sorcerer and the wizard being similar? We could just as easily change the wizard so his abilities don't exactly mimic the sorcerer. We could expand the role of the existing arcane schools instead of inventing more and more bloodline abilities from scratch.
Consider this: of the three arcane casters in the core rules - bard, sorcerer, and wizard - only the wizard prepares spells. That makes the wizard the odd man out, not the sorcerer. So why is the sorcerer the one who gets thrown under the bus?
Epic,
The Wizard class is nearly unchanged from it's incarnation in AD&D 30+ years ago, the sorcerer is a relative newcomer and it's always been sort of the ugly stepsister of the casters. The wizard class doesn't NEED changes to be a good class. The sorcerer needs some changes and it makes sense to make those changes in a way that diversifies the classes rather than converges them.I love the sorcerer class as it is so I'm a bit nervous about the idea of changing it. So far I think the changes Jason's made are pretty good so I'm going to go with him on this.
I would like to see him take it a little farther (with the clarification that level is defined as 'class level' as people can't seem to understand that), I feel the bloodlines are a bit weak compared to everything the wizard gets (I DO NOT want the wizard gimped, I want the sorcerer brought up to speed.)
I'm all for unstaggering. It always sucks to wait a whole level longer for those nice new toys.
This wouldn't make sorcerers overpowered, or finally turn them into carbon copies of each other.
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I absolutely cannot stand the staggered casting level of the Sorcerer. It is simply frustrating and annoying, creating endless headaches regarding magic items and scrolls and questions about the caster level of those items.
This is the big problem for me as well. Another vote for unstaggering the progression.