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This thread branches off from this one because I'd like to focus discussion in this thread to a proposal by Jason Nelson that seemed to get skipped over. Again, this idea was proposed by Jason Nelson and I feel it has a lot of merit and deserves more discussion. (Some paraphrasing has been done, but otherwise this concept is un-altered.)
The biggest problem with the armor system is that medium armor sucks. It is a poor choice for any class that wears armor. I would favor...
- Get rid of the chain shirt.
- If you can't bring yourself to drop chain shirt, then drop padded armor and reduce the AC bonus of light armors by 1 (i.e. leather is +1, studded is +2, chain shirt is +3).
- If we must keep a speed penalties for heavier armors, change it to -5 ft for medium and -10 ft for heavy.
- Increase the AC bonus for all medium armors by 1.
- Increase the AC bonus for all heavy armors by 2.
- Tie shields to armor type, as follows...
- Buckler is light armor, +1 AC
- Light shield is medium armor, +2 AC
- Heavy shield is heavy armor, +3 AC
- Tower shield is an exotic heavy armor, +6 AC
- Create a helmet entry that gets factored into Armor Class and get enchanted seperately.
- An open-faced helm is medium armor. +1 helmet bonus to AC, -1 to Perception checks (-2 if not proficient).
- A great helm is heavy armor. +2 helmet bonus to AC, -2 to Perception checks (-4 if not proficient).
- Add a concept of a "vital AC bonus". The principle of the light-fighter is that he's hard to hit, but once you hit him you're getting metal on skin. The heavy fighter, once you hit the AC, you still have to punch through the metal.
- Light armor gets +0 AC vs. critical confirmation rolls.
- Medium armor gets +X AC vs. critical confirmation rolls.
- Heavy armor gets +2X AC vs. critical confirmation rolls.
Adding DR to armor as a part of the core rules would help a lot too. I would suggest something along the lines of...
DR = 1/2 armor bonus + enhancement bonus
Even without the changes proposed above this would be huge, as now that +1 Hide Armor is (+4 AC, DR 3) vs. a chain shirt (+4 AC, no DR).
I would also suggest that DR scales as follows...
- DR/magic for non-magical armor
- DR/adamantine for magical armor
- DR/- for adamantine armor
Should shields count in this argument? Sure, why not. We can exclude bucklers if we like.
Now our doughty warrior in +5 Full Plate and +5 Heavy Shield not only gets a +20 AC bonus but also DR 10/adamantine. Which is comparable to or better than what the monsters he's fighting at that level (you could easily afford this rig by early double digits if not before - it's only about 52K) will have.
If we implemented the helmet rule, add a +5 Great Helm (bumping the price to 77K), now we're at +27 AC and DR 13/adamantine.
What do you think? Is this a reasonable fix to implement?
I wouldn't say that medium armour sucks. I had many characters with medium armour: Characters who were too nimble for heavy, but not nimble enough for light.
Plus, there's always mithral, and that makes breastplates light armour.
1. Nooooo! Beyond the Great Frodo Precedence, I still like it.
2. I think the AC bonuses are okay as they are, in most parts.
3. In fact, I'd switch the penalties for medium and heavy around: Medium reduces run speed from x4 to x3, and heavy reduces base speed to 20 (for medium creatures). Had that as a house rule for a long time, too.
4/5. I don't think that AC bonuses should be increased across the board, just like I don't want a general decrease.
6. Leave the bonuses be, but I like the idea of making shields armour types. I agree with the assessment, except that I wouldn't go as far as calling tower shields "exotic" armour (since there's no exotic armour proficiency in the core rules, and I frankly wouldn't want one. I can agree that exotic weapons need extra training, but I just cannot see it for most types of armour. Tower shield, yes, but not armour. You just put the stuff on and you're done).
7. I don't know about helmets. It could lead to an inflation in ACs. Plus, there's the part where a paladin would have to choose between more AC (magic helmet) or more charisma (magic headband). Other classes would be affected by this, too, of course.
8. I must admit that I don't like bonuses to attack rolls to confirm a crit, and neither do I like bonuses to ACs to withstand confirmation rolls. The reason for dis thislike (or vice versa) is that it's extra bookkeeping, and I usually forget them, anyway.
I also don't like Armour as DR to be the standard rule. It makes it even harder for those who forego the strength-based attack option - you usually won't get extra damage based on dex, so the fencer is lost against a knight in full plate.
That said, there are some problems in the armour region, and Paizo has fixed some of them - but not in the RPG, they're in the Campaign setting:
I feel that the armour section really could use some rework, but not necessarily in the form of simple fixes like "increase all by 2". I'd like it if Jason found an hour or two to go over the list and make all types of armour attractive for all levels.
My Suggestion for armour:
Name Cost Bonus Max Dex Penalty Arcane Speed (30) Speed (20) Weight
;Light armor
Padded 5 gp 1 8 0 5% 30 ft. 20 ft. 10 lb.
Leather 10 gp 2 6 0 10% 30 ft. 20 ft. 15 lb.
Studded leather 25 gp 3 5 1 15% 30 ft. 20 ft. 20 lb.
Chain shirt 100 gp 4 4 2 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb.
Medium armor
Hide 15 gp 4 4 3 20% 30 ft. 20 ft. 25 lb.
Scale mail 50 gp 4 4 4 25% 30 ft. 20 ft. 30 lb.
Chainmail 150 gp 5 3 5 30% 30 ft. 20 ft. 40 lb.
Breastplate 200 gp 5 3 -3 25% 30 ft. 20 ft. 30 lb.
Heavy armor
Splint mail 200 gp 6 2 7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 45 lb.
Banded mail 250 gp 6 3 6 35% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 35 lb.
Half-plate 600 gp 7 2 7 40% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb.
Full plate 1,500 gp 8 1 6 35% 20 ft.2 15 ft.2 50 lb.
I would say simply reduce the AC bonus of a Chain shirt to +3. A chain shirt covers only the torso. A full suit of Studded Leather armor covers the arms and legs. So even while the Chain shirt may be sturdier the Studded leather covers more area there for they both provide a +3 bonus. This allows the medium armors that only provide a +4 AC bonus to actually provide a bonus higher than can be achieved with a light armor option.
Also I would like to see Mirthril no longer reducing the catagory of the armor, Heavy to medium and from medium to light. Rather simple have it negate penalties but dont change the catagory.
I am also in full support of increasing the AC bonus shields provide. Shields should be a vaible options and increase the bonus puts them more in line with where they should be.
I have houseruled the +3 AC for chain shirt for long now, and it works well. It's still attractive, since it's a metal armor.
I liked a good part of Jason Nelson's ideas. Chain Shirt at 4 AC, versus full chain mail at 5 AC has always been incorrect, in my book. Either the extra coverage for Full Chain is worth 6 AC, or the lesser coverage for just a shirt is worth 3 AC.
In terms of backwards compatability, though, changing too many of the armor AC numbers is bad, since it requires revision to every armored NPC block. Adding alternate effects, like the DR to medium/heavy armors, is not a bad idea, as adding to stat blocks is pretty straightforward.
Also I would like to see Mirthril no longer reducing the catagory of the armor, Heavy to medium and from medium to light. Rather simple have it negate penalties but dont change the catagory.
+1
Doug