Ok since I suggested the idea I'll post a build on it:
Lets say Lenny has a brother named Benny. Now Benny is like Lenny in that he is a fighter, but he's a bit more of a coward and likes his shield ALOT more. Benny is also the milkman's child which explains the completely different stats (nessecary for the build to come out):
15(16) str 17(19) dex 11(12) Con 8 int 10 wis 7 cha
(the numbers in parathesis are after level adjustments this is without magical items etc. I used the average 15 point buy to build these stats)
Not a very smart guy but he's athletic and nimble... like your average linebacker :)
His feat list is extensive becuase he is of course a fighter level 16:
Shield Bash, Slam and mastery
Weapon focus tree completed on (Heavy Spiked Shield)
Two weapon fighting, Improved and Greater
Vital Strike and Greater
Dazzling Display and the rest of this tree
Blind fight
Now because Benny is only focusing on his shield for both offense and defense he actually ends up with a little more money than his brother we won't work about that, saying he blew it on special materials for his shield and armor and a belt of physical perfection instead of something lesser (has an impact on his defense but not on his attack rolls).
Benny is working with a + 5 'Bashing' heavy spiked shield which gives a + 7 shield bonus to Ac and does 2d6 damage on its own.
His regular attack routine with this shield, counting the effects of Shield Mastery is:
Primary Hand:
+34 / +29 / + 24 / + 19
Secondary Hand:
+32 / + 27 / + 22
(this would be much worse BUT shield mastery comes in to save the day adding both the shield bonus as an enhancement bonus to both attack and damage AND negating the penalties for with two weapons! Becuase he is using weapon swap though there is still a - 2 penalty on the second hand though)
Because of Double slice the damage for each hit primary or secondary stays the same: 2d6 + 20
Total damage if Benny Doesn't miss and does average damage per die (3.5) for 1 round of full attacks would be: 189
With the buffs as provided for Lenny this changes to:
Primary Hand:
+ 40 / + 40 / + 35 / + 30 / + 25
Secondary hand:
+ 38 / + 33 / + 28
With damage being: 2d6 + 21
Total damage as above would be: 224
IF Benny decides to use vital strike without being buffed he would have the following attack routine:
Primary Hand:
+34 / +29 / + 24
Secondary Hand:
+32 / + 27 / + 22
Dealing 4d6 + 20 per hit
Totaling: 204
With the buffs this would be:
Primary Hand:
+ 40 / + 40 / + 35 / + 30
Secondary hand:
+ 38 / + 33 / + 28
Dealing 4d6 + 21 per hit
Totaling: 245
Improved Vital Strike does:
Primary Hand:
+34 / +29 / + 24
Secondary Hand:
+32 / + 27
Dealing 6d6 + 20 per hit
Totaling: 205
With the buffs this would be:
Primary Hand:
+ 40 / + 40 / + 35 / + 30
Secondary hand:
+ 38 / + 33
Dealing 6d6 + 21 per hit
Totaling: 252
Finally Please remember that becuase of shield slam each attack gives Benny a Bull Rush attempt using his attack roll instead of his CMB and with no attack of opportunity, while still keeping his shield bonus to AC. Benny here is going to have fewer HP than his brother Lenny however his AC is going to be much higher due both to the use of a shield and the higher Dex bonus that he can benefit from due to both the fighter's armor training and the purchase of mithral full plate of speed (or just mithral full plate if available).
wasn't really worth it to me, I got the dazzling display tree instead. However if someone wanted to they could sub that tree with Dodge, Combat reflexes, two weapon rend, or toughness. they all work well. I like the dazzling display stuff becuase it still gives you more options.
The idea of doing Weapon Swap with a Shield is already quite funny... add in the "two weapon rend" with a single weapon that is also a SHIELD? My brain hurts trying to imagine that.
Yeah the only reason I'm willing to go with weapon swap on the shield is becuase there where plenty of cultures that had heavy shields that where not strapped to the arm. Beyond that we got Captain America here so it's good on that level too. Anyways this was really just a numbers game for me, seeing what was possible.
A very respectable sword-and-board, VERY respectable. Many thanks for putting that together! :)
no no no Turin, it is not "sword and board" that requires a sword... This is "Board and Board, and same board again!" Literal captian america here.
I point this out because sword and board would actually deal less damage, and cost more.
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The idea of doing Weapon Swap with a Shield is already quite funny... add in the "two weapon rend" with a single weapon that is also a SHIELD? My brain hurts trying to imagine that.
If you're going to go for the funny, then why not go all out!?
Sam
[Edit]Dazzling Display with a shield is kind of funny too.
[Edit2]I guess you paint one of those hypnotic swirly patterns on it.
I'm glad everyone can see the humor in this: I was afraid I would receive one of those "you can't do that In Real Life" rants and people being upset I would point out that by the rules this is possible.
really though it's a strong build. You save lots of money can get good attacks and deal solid damage with a rockin armor class.
I'm glad everyone can see the humor in this: I was afraid I would receive one of those "you can't do that In Real Life" rants and people being upset I would point out that by the rules this is possible.
really though it's a strong build. You save lots of money can get good attacks and deal solid damage with a rockin armor class.
The only problem is that I hate Weapon Swap feat and would like to see it changed or removed. I do not allow it in my games.
In that case I would use a Spiked armor for the off-hand attacks :)
Also I am not sure you can use weapon swap and Rend feats. Rend needs two weapons to work, and you only have one that you swap from one hand to the other.
I just had a good, long, heartfelt belly laugh from the last few posts. ^_^
Well the two weapon fighting and rend issues aren't here as I didn't take Rend.
however I could see a fighter stabbing someone leaving the sword in grabbing with the other hand and twisting it good as he pulls it out in a different direction than the one it went in from.
*shrugs* the feat section of design focus is going to be... fun :D
Hm,
Weapon Swap with Shield seems a bit wonky, but what's to stop him from just wielding TWO Hvy. Spiked Shields?
His AC would get a decent boost (+2 base, +4? enchant = +6 AC? +Shield Feats, Armor Training?)
He loses the cost advantage of not needing an enchanted Weapon,
but get's an extra Feat instead of Weapon Swap (Imp. Crit:Shield?), & he wouldn't suffer the -2 attack Penalty from Swapping.
BTW, do you think Shield Mastery w/ a Spiked Shield ALSO enchanted as a Weapon SEPARATELY from it's Armor Enchant would allow the Shield/Weapon Enchant to STACK? (This might be good to bring up in Feats)
I love how you've actually made this build so offensively effective.
It's pretty hilarious, actually :-)
(To balance, his offense would probably be gimped for most of his career)
Well at lower levels he could do sword and board, with a short sword in the off hand. I believe the build could be viable from level 1.
The reason for not using two shields is the lack of bonus from the second one. You only get one shield bonus to AC.
Technically you can get the shield spikes enhanted on their own. If you do I would suggest only going to + 1 and then grab a bunch of abilities. You can only have 1 enhancement bonus to attack and shield mastery makes your shield bonus to AC into an enhancement bonus to hit and damage which would be + 7 (+2 from the shield + 5 from the shield's defensive enhancement bonus).
Well at lower levels he could do sword and board, with a short sword in the off hand. I believe the build could be viable from level 1.
The reason for not using two shields is the lack of bonus from the second one. You only get one shield bonus to AC.
Technically you can get the shield spikes enhanted on their own. If you do I would suggest only going to + 1 and then grab a bunch of abilities. You can only have 1 enhancement bonus to attack and shield mastery makes your shield bonus to AC into an enhancement bonus to hit and damage which would be + 7 (+2 from the shield + 5 from the shield's defensive enhancement bonus).
Wielding two heavy shields would also give a you a -2 penalty on all attack for not using a light weapon in your off-hand?!
Do potions of Bull's Strength count as 'super-soldier serum'?
"Benny Fury; Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.!"
Have to have Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance too - the SSS maxes out all three.
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Have to have Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance too - the SSS maxes out all three.
It also makes you attractive to my wife.
She apparently had the hots for Nick Fury, as a little girl, when she saw him in a book of her Dad's. The psychedelic art by Steranko, and the pop-art by Kirby. Had quite an effect on her.
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Have to have Cat's Grace and Bear's Endurance too - the SSS maxes out all three.It also makes you attractive to my wife.
She apparently had the hots for Nick Fury, as a little girl, when she saw him in a book of her Dad's. The psychedelic art by Steranko, and the pop-art by Kirby. Had quite an effect on her.
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I'd be willing to bet that a hair salon can make the necessary arrangements. ^_^
Should I make collar and cuffs match?
Try the hair first & gauge her response. :) It would be an excellent idea for her for Halloween - doing the Nick Fury thing.
Actually Archangel, shield mastery comes to the rescue again on that one. It's a very... interesting feat.
Yeah the only reason I'm willing to go with weapon swap on the shield is becuase there where plenty of cultures that had heavy shields that where not strapped to the arm.
Such as? The heavy shields in D&D seem like cavalry/kite/heater shields, according to their descriptions anyways. And bucklers would cover most strapless shields, even up to something like a Roman parma or a viking round shield. (Sorry, had to nitpick that a bit, this still seems like a nasty build, with or without weapon swap)
Yeah, it's a pretty crazy build :-)
I'd still think if the Weapon Swap was a problem, (straps n' such)
You could just dual-wield two Shields, even if you don't get the AC bonus from one.
(since you're Weapon Spec'd in them and all, and maybe even took Imp. Crit-Shields instead of Weapon Swap)
*shrugs* still fine with me, two + 6 spiked heavy shields (+5 bashing) cost no where near as much as single + 6 magical weapon (50,360 gp compared to, 72,300 + weapon cost for the weapon).
You could even have them look like the Or'u'ki (I'm spelling phontecally) shields from LotR.
Yeah as ironic as this build is you can't weapon swap a shield because all of them require a Move action to Loose or Ready...
Which is why one should probably consider Quick Draw as the requirement/pre-requisite for such abilities. :)
Is it possible to Bash and put Spikes on Bucklers?
Those would probably be better, just for general utility to have hands free (climbing, opening doors, grapples, etc)
for a minor AC loss, and you could even still use ONE Heavy Shield if you just want ONE free hand.
I actually want to play a character build like this now...
I see it as some Gladiator-type whose slogan is "the best offence is a good defence!" :-)
The rules state specifically that you can't bash with a buckler, beyond that the heavy shield provides the biggest bonuses to everything, attack, AC, and damage becuase shield mastery gives you the shield's entire shield bonus (including magical enhancements) as a enhancement bonus both to hit and to damage. Meaning a + 5 heavy shield gives a bonus of + 7 (2 from the shield 5 from the enhancement) to hit and damage, which is better than any simple +5 weapon. A light shield + 5 would only give a +6. Also even if you enchant the shield spikes they wouldn't add their enhancement bonus to hit and damage becuase you only use the highest enhancement bonus available (7>5).
Oh, I guess a Light Shield would work then, for the "off hand",
to let you quaff potions/ open doors & the like. :-)
This guy is total Grapple-bait though... (not having hands free)
Yeah grapple away, that should be interesting, as escape artist is a great cross class skill for fighters. It's not much more of a concern than touch attacks are in my opinion. Heck with the extra money from buying the shields (or shield) instead of a weapon, just get greater slick put on your armor, or a ring of freedom of movement.